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ShanahanMan

Holland Content with Current Roster

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i agree with shanahan man. i don't know how some of you people are drinking the kool aid that holland is serving up, but my god if you can't see that this team is much weaker than last years team that got spanked by the preds and called out by their own coach, then you must have been watching something else. holland has been selling this same old crap for 4 early playoff exits. in my opinon he needs to go, and i have been saying this for years. i live and die with the wings, i was living and dying with them back in the years of the dead wings and the rebirth in 86-87. those were great times. now we have some lazy, overpaid players that holland signed and refuses to get rid of, like frazen. i would have taken hossa anyday over this lazy disappearing act. just my 2 cents

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I'm really surprised that so many are still defending Holland here. If it were just the lack of moves this offseason at play, then I'd understand. It would be dumb to throw too much money at low-quality talent because we didn't pull off the main plan. But as I've said in the past and many others are seeing now, this is a problem that's been brewing for four years now.

He should've made the moves to have pieces in place to build on when Lidstrom left 2-3, maybe even 4 years ago, but he didn't want to move anybody. He should've been actively shopping for a big time young defensemen after we won our last Cup, and yes, he should've given up legitimate, Red Wing-developed talent to do so, hard as it may.

If you ask me, Holland's chief and most critical objective for the last five year has been coming up for a replacement for Lidstrom. They knew it was coming, and they knew the loss would be huge; there could be no bigger hole than the hole left by Lidstrom in this era. The way it's looking now, it is highly likely that the 2012/13 season will start and Holland will have failed to come even remotely close to addressing the hole left by Lidstrom.

But again, to be perfectly clear, Holland didn't fail this summer. He failed for the last 4 years. He keeps coming up with nothing in the off-season and he even admitted in 2009 that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened when all our free-agents walked and we had no real Plan B.

Hell, people are pissed we didn't get Parise this year at a cap hit that would've sat around $7.5 million, but we let Hossa walk who could've been had for a $5 million cap hit because we didn't want to part with guys we developed, despite the fact that they've been inconsistent or wholly unproven performers.

But to be fair, I'm no saying Holland's a bad GM or wouldn't be capable of building a winner again, but I am increasingly of the opinion that he has run his course as the Wings GM. I think he's become too soft and cautious, and I'd venture to say at times out of touch with reality (again, see summer 2009). I think it's easy to gravitate to extremes on this issue and say Holland is a mastermind because of what he accomplished in the past just as easy as it is to say he rode on the coattails of Scotty Bowman's influence. Maybe the true answer is somewhere in between. Maybe he's just too close to this organization and the people in it to make objective opinions. And maybe he's not.

But in any event, in the last 4 years, any way you shake it, he's given no reason to believe that he's still got even a hint of that magic touch still, and even if you want to focus on the positives in his history and his overall capability as a GM, you still have a long way to go in defending the last 4 years of mediocre GMing. After all, even he admitted he blew it in '09, and Babcock all but slammed him about his lack of moves last summer to address problems he saw in the team.

Well considering DRWs were up against the cap and would need to shed salary, no quality FA available, they would need to trade. Who did you want thme to trade? Kronwall? Datsyuk? Or a package of Datsyuk AND Helm + picks?

It's one thing to say "Holland knew this for four years", it's another thing keeping this team in contention under the cap world with little to no assets to trade.

Again, people should have realistic expectations.... after all, this is a salary cap world and even the Detroit Red Wings need to follow the rules.

Your post proves to be unrealistic and unreasonable for the time. THERE WAS NO MONEY AND NO TRADE ASSETS

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The off season is no ware near over, we have yet to play a game in the '12-'13 season and some of us want to can the best GM in sports. We are going to do well. This is the Detroit Red Wings for gods sakes.

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Not one bit - one down year does not tarnish an entire body of work and it's that exact mentality that has my so annoyed with the general spoiled brat mentality on here lately....

Holland has been an integral part of our brain trust for over 20 years and adapted AMAZINGLY to the salary cap era (take a look at how well all of the other previous big market clubs have done since this was implemented) and has brought us (or been part of) 4 Stanley cups, 21 straight playoff appearances (might I mind you the longest streak in PROFESSIONAL SPORTS HISTORY), countless division titles and most importantly, a chance to win it all every year... that is damn near impossible in today's sports landscape, and I guarantee 29 other clubs would KILL to have such a horrible problem on their hands...

Even if we miss the playoffs this year (which I don't think we will), Holland will re-tool and put us back within Stanley Cup contention in no time, and when we're a perennial favorite again, win even MORE cups and titles under his reign, the people with this mentality will still be waiting for the team to have ONE year that's down again, so they can yell "fire him"... It's laughable...

Might I remind everyone that during his tenure we've also recovered from unexpectedly losing Konstantinov (a perennial Norris hopeful), unexpectedly losing Jiri Fischer(who was well on his way to being one of the premier big dmen in the league), adapting to a salary cap era AND now, he is losing the best (arguably) defenseman of all time and Holland WILL, as always, adapt to this... just because he didn't pull a rabbit out of his ass, when nothing was available right now, doesn't make him less capable and NOT chasing after marginal players to fill a hole they can't anyway, IS what makes him even better...

I am not commenting on this topic any further because it's like screaming at the deaf and if those who disagree can't understand all these points and take them for what they are, I don't know what else to say... As I said before, everyone has the right to be upset this off-season hasn't gone as planned, but COME ON.

No one's questioning Kenny's entire resume, just his recent performance over the last couple years. If Kenny was the awesome GM you claim we wouldn't be in this position. And again you keep harping on THIS offseason, like it's the only one in question. Pay attention dood.

esteef

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Well considering DRWs were up against the cap and would need to shed salary, no quality FA available, they would need to trade. Who did you want thme to trade? Kronwall? Datsyuk? Or a package of Datsyuk AND Helm + picks?

It's one thing to say "Holland knew this for four years", it's another thing keeping this team in contention under the cap world with little to no assets to trade.

Again, people should have realistic expectations.... after all, this is a salary cap world and even the Detroit Red Wings need to follow the rules.

Your post proves to be unrealistic and unreasonable for the time. THERE WAS NO MONEY AND NO TRADE ASSETS

Yeah dude, trade Datsyuk and Kronwall and Zetterberg and Helm and some picks. Your ridiculous defense of Holland no matter the circumstance is getting dumber and dumber. I wish I had a job where I could just throw my hands up and say "I can't do anything" and everyone would praise me. What a f***in' load.

esteef

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Lidstrom - no n

I can overlook all the other spelling and gramatical errors, but come on... he's a legend, get his name right...

Ya, cuz there gunna hung hiz jerzy nix yizzear

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Yeah dude, trade Datsyuk and Kronwall and Zetterberg and Helm and some picks. Your ridiculous defense of Holland no matter the circumstance is getting dumber and dumber. I wish I had a job where I could just throw my hands up and say "I can't do anything" and everyone would praise me. What a f***in' load.

esteef

Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years.

We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool.

You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't is just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.

Edited by Carman
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Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years.

We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool.

You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.

First, Ian White is not a "very good defenseman" and yes I would've traded players or possibly overpaid to get what I needed instead of shrugging my shoulders and lip-servicing the media and fans with future promises of next time, next time, next time. Now look where we are. Yes Holland has been doing "something" the last couple years and it has sucked.

esteef

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Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year.

And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season.

I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.

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Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years.

We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool.

You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't is just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.

Holland hasn't been the GM for 20 years. Just saying.

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Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year.

And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season.

I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.

Ian White played with Lidstrom all year, I'm sure that affected his stats. Why do you think we got him so cheap? He doesn't suck, but he ain't "great". Put it this way, I don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on our team.

Did I say make a move to appease fans? No. Of course the moves should make the team better, but the way you twisted it sounds better for your argument right?. Sometimes you do have to overpay.

Again the "20 years in a row" is wearing thin because we're creeping downhill every year. Kenny's been resting on his past successes too long.

esteef

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Holland hasn't been the GM for 20 years. Just saying.

Wasn't refering to just his work as GM.

Ian White played with Lidstrom all year, I'm sure that affected his stats. Why do you think we got him so cheap? He doesn't suck, but he ain't "great". Put it this way, I don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on our team.

Did I say make a move to appease fans? No. Of course the moves should make the team better, but the way you twisted it sounds better for your argument right?. Sometimes you do have to overpay.

Again the "20 years in a row" is wearing thin because we're creeping downhill every year. Kenny's been resting on his past successes too long.

esteef

No doubt it helped White, but he was still productive on his own merit especially given his contract. His production was the second best in the 2011 free agent class behind Bieksa.

In my opinion you only overpay when you get an elite player, overpaying for Brent Burns would not have helped us. Overpaying for Suter? Probably would have helped us. And Holland was planning to. I just don't see the situations the past few years that would have made sense to overpay, could you cite some?

Indeed past success is only as important as your future, and I fail to see how the Wings are looking bad in the future, our prospect pool is by all accounts very deep, and we have plenty of cap room to improve.

Edited by Carman

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First, Ian White is not a "very good defenseman" and yes I would've traded players or possibly overpaid to get what I needed instead of shrugging my shoulders and lip-servicing the media and fans with future promises of next time, next time, next time. Now look where we are. Yes Holland has been doing "something" the last couple years and it has sucked.

esteef

ianwhite4.jpg

Stache

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Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year.

And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season.

I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.

+/- is a poor stat for judging defensive performance, I'd look at situational stats, quality minutes, etc. If you take 2 defensemen with the same overall skill set and ability level and one plays against bottom 6 players exclusively and the other plays against top 6 players exclusively, I would bet my bottom dollar that D-man #1 will have a better +/-, even if D-man two is playing more quality minutes.

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First, Ian White is not a "very good defenseman" and yes I would've traded players or possibly overpaid to get what I needed instead of shrugging my shoulders and lip-servicing the media and fans with future promises of next time, next time, next time. Now look where we are. Yes Holland has been doing "something" the last couple years and it has sucked.

esteef

I'll take White and his 2.875 million dollar contract over Wiz at 5.5 every day of the week. Who would you have overpaid for? what would you have traded to get "what we need" who do you have in mind for what we've needed the past few years?

Its one thing to say he should have done "something" but you aren't really proposing any options.

As for where we are, we're in the off-season, you don't have a crystal ball and you aren't any more accurate predicting the Wings failure than the optimists are at predicting a championship.

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Wasn't refering to just his work as GM.

To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).

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To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).

Of course, Holland should take the blame if the team tanks. I'd be with you if we miss the playoffs next year. I'd probably support him for one more season, but that's it. I have very high expectations of this team, I'm just looking at the situation as realistically as I can, and I cannot come up with any moves the past few seasons that would put the Red Wings in a better situation then they are now.

Edited by Carman

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I'll take White and his 2.875 million dollar contract over Wiz at 5.5 every day of the week. Who would you have overpaid for? what would you have traded to get "what we need" who do you have in mind for what we've needed the past few years?

Its one thing to say he should have done "something" but you aren't really proposing any options.

As for where we are, we're in the off-season, you don't have a crystal ball and you aren't any more accurate predicting the Wings failure than the optimists are at predicting a championship.

Cheese Wiz wasn't coming here anyways cause "the Wings don't pay their players market value" Clearly he fits in the group of being more worried about money than winning.

Mark Flood is apparently UFA going by capgeek. He's a really good dman.

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Of course, Holland should take the blame if the team tanks. I'd be with you if we miss the playoffs next year. I'd probably support him for one more season, but that's it. I have very high expectations of this team, I'm just looking at the situation as realistically as I can, and I cannot come up with any moves the past few seasons that would put the Red Wings in a better situation then they are now.

The only real problem I can find with the past few years is drafting philosophy in the first two rounds that caused them to miss out on some really good D-prospect that would be either NHL ready today, or by the 2013 season. But the draft is never a guarantee, so I won't fault him too much for it.

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I'll take White and his 2.875 million dollar contract over Wiz at 5.5 every day of the week. Who would you have overpaid for? what would you have traded to get "what we need" who do you have in mind for what we've needed the past few years?

Its one thing to say he should have done "something" but you aren't really proposing any options.

As for where we are, we're in the off-season, you don't have a crystal ball and you aren't any more accurate predicting the Wings failure than the optimists are at predicting a championship.

Like I said, White doesn't suck, I just don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on the Wings. But the offseason isn't over yet, so we'll see what Holland does.

I would've addressed the team's needs that have been clear for a couple years now, a top 6 forward and someone to eventually replace Lids. Anything else isn't getting it done, especially for a GM of Holland's caliber. Now he has to fill those holes AND others all in one offseason which is quickly ending.

esteef

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I would've addressed the team's needs that have been clear for a couple years now, a top 6 forward and someone to eventually replace Lids.

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

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Like I said, White doesn't suck, I just don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on the Wings. But the offseason isn't over yet, so we'll see what Holland does.

I would've addressed the team's needs that have been clear for a couple years now, a top 6 forward and someone to eventually replace Lids. Anything else isn't getting it done, especially for a GM of Holland's caliber. Now he has to fill those holes AND others all in one offseason which is quickly ending.

esteef

I'm looking for specific players, not general things like I'd get a top 6 forward and a Lidstrom replacement.

Who is the top 6 forward you'd target? if its a FA, what would you be willing to pay him?

Who would you trade for and what would you have given up to get him?

To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).

I agree that Holland isn't solely responsible for the successes and failures, but I disagree that Bowman deserves the credit for building the Wings that were playing in 2008. Bowman worth was as a coach, not a team builder. He also was only a consultant for the Wings from 2002 until he left for the same position in Chicago. I remember Babcock saying he talked to Scotty almost every day, but I've never heard of him lending a hand to Kenny or the management team.

Holland has been part of the GM team since 1994 and has been the full time GM since 97-98. Of the 2008 Red Wings the only players on it that weren't drafted by or brought in by Holland were Osgood, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Maltby, McCarty and Draper.

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How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

Well, there has been some experiments to combine Orr's offense with Lidstrom's Defense and knees to make a super D-man, but, Pizza sales have been down and transmogrifiers are not cheap.

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How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

Thru trades and free agency, duh? And I've already answered why I'm not going to be baited into playing the specifics game in the "How Bad are we..." thread. Go find your answer there.

esteef

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