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ShanahanMan

Holland Content with Current Roster

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Not spending all the cap space this season while other teams overspend for average players will give Holland an advantage next season when going after top talent. I trust that he knows what he's doing.

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On a positive note, doesn't this mean the Kenny can pick up Weber next year? Which is what we all wanted before the while Suter ordeal.

If there were any level of certainty in signing Weber next year, I would be fine with just riding out 2012-13 with any small potatoes depth signings we used to patch up the back end of the defense. But look what happened this offseason - you can't predict or rely on free agency as a future strategy for team building. Nashville, after all, is $30 million under the cap, and Rinne/Erat/Gaustad are the only players signed to 3 years or more. The team may have financial problems, but if Weber finds a reason to stay, they should be able to figure out resigning him...and then what?

If we have an opportunity to do an offer sheet, I don't see a better gamble out there than this one. And I've yet to hear a compelling reason as to why we shouldn't risk it. Draft picks? The Wings never have good ones anyway, and have proven time and time again they're willing to trade them away for the likes of Bertuzzi, Stuart, and Kyle freaking Quincey at the deadline anyway. Concerns about forcing the Predators' hand in matching Weber, rather than seeing him go to a division contender? Well, first, we have no idea if NAS will even be in our division after next year, and second, if they're willing to match our absurdly high offer, then they probably would've signed him anyway.

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Sorry, but conceding another hockey season (Babs didn't think his roster last year was going to be able to compete) won't fly in this town. Not signing one of the top 5 talents in the league because "we don't like what we hear about him" is ok if your team already has a sniper or two. Well, we don't.

I understand being smart with your money, but when you straight up DON'T SPEND money you have, you are more or less throwing it away. We had $5 million in cap space last year that we didn't spend. Essentially, the Detroit Red Wings cap sat $5 million lower than the NHL cap. That makes no sense to me....

Teams that spend right to the cap and still aren't contenders are stupid. They have no option to bring in high profile players when they become available. If Holland gets a guy like Vandermeer and tries out our best prospects this year and figures out who's good enough moving forward, are you gonna complain next summer when we have a chance to get Weber, Getzlaf and Perry? I didn't think so. And not eveyone is gonna sign a 1 year contract with the Wings to get pushed aside next offseason when Holland wants to dish out money to a WAY better UFA crop. No need to spend right to the cap and waste the owners money if you don't have to. And some guys will be getting raises next year and the years after that, so having some cap space handy IS a good thing.

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If there were any level of certainty in signing Weber next year, I would be fine with just riding out 2012-13 with any small potatoes depth signings we used to patch up the back end of the defense. But look what happened this offseason - you can't predict or rely on free agency as a future strategy for team building. Nashville, after all, is $30 million under the cap, and Rinne/Erat/Gaustad are the only players signed to 3 years or more. The team may have financial problems, but if Weber finds a reason to stay, they should be able to figure out resigning him...and then what?

If we have an opportunity to do an offer sheet, I don't see a better gamble out there than this one. And I've yet to hear a compelling reason as to why we shouldn't risk it. Draft picks? The Wings never have good ones anyway, and have proven time and time again they're willing to trade them away for the likes of Bertuzzi, Stuart, and Kyle freaking Quincey at the deadline anyway. Concerns about forcing the Predators' hand in matching Weber, rather than seeing him go to a division contender? Well, first, we have no idea if NAS will even be in our division after next year, and second, if they're willing to match our absurdly high offer, then they probably would've signed him anyway.

I almost believe that Weber would sign with Detroit out of pure spite. Wishful thinking on my part perhaps but isn't he pissed off at Suter for leaving? Not to mention he and David Poile aren't on the best of terms...

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Plus the Wings only have 6 D-men signed right now, and Janik just signed in Germany. If someone got injured, who'd fill in?

I guess it would be Lashoff or even Almqvist. Good opportunity for young guys to get a few games taste of the nhl rather than have some vet getting sour sitting around waiting. I know i felt guilty having commie ride pine, I mean the guy was an nhler. if the kids are vying for a shot its always good.

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(First, serious props to ElCapitan for the Stevie Ray Vaughan guitar as an avatar - that's an iconic instrument)

Thanks, got to see it in Austin this spring!

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He is not. I read it the same way, because, well, thats exactly what it said. That Quincy and Smith will "replace" (the exact word he used) Stuart and Lidstrom.

There are two ways of looking at the term "replace" though. Replace could mean either substitute or it could mean equivalent (for example if you get a flat tire you might replace it with the donut - it would replace it in the sense it is a substitute but it would not be considered the equivalent). I don't believe that anyone thinks Holland meant that Quincy and Smith will be the equivalent of Lidstrom and Stuart (which was the insinuation that caused SwedeLundin77 to balk) however, it is correct to say that at this point Quincey and Smith have to be the substitutes for Lids and Stuart.

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Now he's in the press basically trying to have it both ways, patting himself on the back that the Wings were one of two teams that met with Parise, but then spins it that maybe their 13 year term (which I thought the Wings matched?) was too long with his "out of the game for a decade" comment. It's also a little funny to hear him say that given the contracts he gave to Zetterberg and especially Franzen.

Do you have the full quote? Because I was under the impression that quote was taken woefully out of context when I found the full statement he made about that situation.

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I almost believe that Weber would sign with Detroit out of pure spite. Wishful thinking on my part perhaps but isn't he pissed off at Suter for leaving? Not to mention he and David Poile aren't on the best of terms...

I'm hearing he's not happy. What that means, who knows. Perhaps he's also willing to ride out whatever happens with another year in NAS, seeing these massive paydays. I was interested in this RFA topic so I did some research (Why is there no Shea Weber thread? I created one awhile ago, and it was quickly deleted. Can't fathom why Shea Weber is an inappropriate topic, but we need a thread for the Wojtek Wolski signing. Anyway...)

These are the known offer sheets since the lockout:

Ryan Kesler Sept 12, 2006 [4] 1 year, $1.9 million Vancouver Canucks Philadelphia Flyers Matched - Thomas Vanek July 6, 2007[22] 7 years, $50 million Buffalo Sabres Edmonton Oilers Matched - Dustin Penner July 26, 2007 5 years, $21.5 million Anaheim Ducks Edmonton Oilers Accepted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2008 David Backes July 1, 2008 3 years, $7.5 million St. Louis Blues Vancouver Canucks Matched - Steve Bernier July 8, 2008 1 year, $2.5 million Vancouver Canucks St. Louis Blues Matched - Niklas Hjalmarsson July 9, 2010 4 years, $14 million Chicago Blackhawks San Jose Sharks Matched -

There is some sort of "taboo" culture against them in the NHL. I think part of it is the "gentleman's culture" and the fear of retribution, but as this HFBoards poster explains, there are other concerns:

If the player, his agent, or one of the two GMs involved doesn't tell the media, no one knows. If an offer sheet goes unsigned, it does no one any good to let the media know, so outside of those 4 or so people, no one ever knows.

The reason offer sheets aren't more frequently successful is that they're self defeating. If you offer sheet a player, their controlling team has the opportunity to match. That means if you want to sign the player away, you need to offer more money than the controlling team is willing to match. On top of this, you also have to give up draft picks (which you'd need to have the right ones in the first place) to acquire the asset. Most of the time it just works out better to try make a trade with the team for slightly greater than the offer sheet compensation so you can sign the player at a more reasonable salary.

Okay, so let's sort this out - Weber is around $7.5 million averaged salary, so compensation would be two 1st's, a 2nd, and a 3rd rounder. I believe the Wings still have those 2013 picks, correct? The Wings offer some massive deal, say, 12 years/$105 million ($8.75 million cap hit) and front-load the crap out of it. If NAS could match that, wouldn't they already have offered it? Do we really care about losing those picks if the payoff is SHEA WEBER?

And if Nashville did somehow match, we've really lost nothing except for the assumption that Weber might have signed with us next season anyway, instead of the 28 other teams. I think it would be pretty arrogant of Holland to just assume that Detroit is automatic destination that can lure anyone away from PIT, PHI, or any other decent up-and-coming team with cap room.

WingsAlways likes this

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Parity = evening out among the teams of the league. Parody = the panic of some of the fan base, OR what Mike Milbury was as a GM. :)

There are so many layers to consider beyond just this season. I think realistically the changing if the guard for the Wings was coming, but many were trying to hold it at bay.

Some of Holland's comments have to be taken as posturing, as an attempt to minimize the price gouging on trades by other GM's. Someone else said it, the Wings have been the NHL gold standard franchise for close to 20 years, and the other GM's know it. They are NOT going to do Holland any favors.

The "old comment" about Wings fans being arrogant is seeming to ring true with some of the flying off the handle comments posted recently. It was a thin UFA crop this year after Suter and Parise. Holland made a good effort, period.

There are long term implications to the new CBA, including re-signing our own players after this season (Howard and Filppula). Holland has to have more knowledge of the CBA negotiations than us, and it may be that some things are going to change in ways we aren't foreseeing but he is, and he's considering that "inside info".

Plus, it is several MONTHS before opening night, no reason to panic. I'm willing to give Holland some time.

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This is what I posted over the current "Doan" thread:

From Kukla's Korner: http://www.kuklaskor...n_standing_pat/

[/indent]

There's a lot of posturing going on, and almost all of the lack of player signings are out of anyone's control. It's almost like trying to control the weather. Good luck with that.

If an appealing move can be made, I really think Holland will try. There just not that much above the crap line this year.

That was a good read and I loved this part:

I don’t expect, or want, Kenny Holland saying a whole lot of truthful things to me. But let’s you and I be straight: he knows what he needs and so do we. That hasn’t changed in months. Sniper, scorer, a “power forward” who actually drives the net consistently and doesn’t rest on a couple of postseasons that are actually turning out to be miraculous exceptions (clear enough for you Mule?). And the Wings need one more quality, reliable defenseman. You don’t lose Rafalski, Lidstrom, Stuart over a two-year period and replace them with a tainted Dive and a rookie (no matter how good he’s going to be and he’s a Calder candidate).

Rick D and pucktividi like this

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You cannot say that anymore.... LA was an 8 seed last season and no one thought they'd make it anywhere... NJ was, what? a 6 seed? That was your Final this past season.... low seeded teams that no one would have ever predicted being there. We are a contender, plain and simple.

Well, I won some money predicting LA as the winner this season in one local Finnish betting agency. At least for me it was not a big surprise. Just a quick look at their roster shows that they can go very far this season as well. Same quick look at our roster shows 1st round exist at best.

Rick D likes this

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Disappointing to say the least. Here's some highlights from a couple morning articles. Don't expect any new Red Wings anytime soon folks!

Basically, SOMEDAY we'll get a good player.....

Detroit Red Wings, your 2015 Stanley Cup Champions!!

http://www.mlive.com...holland_st.html

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Yes Holland, you're right. It's not like we have any kind of scoring problem and desperately need a top 6 forward, despite the fact that we scored an average of 1.8 goals per game during the playoffs AND our own coach said we lost due to weakness in scoring potential for our 2nd and 3rd lines. Sure Holland, all is fine.

And yeah, saying Smith and Quincey will replace Lidstrom and Stuart, respectively, is in it's own level of idiocy alone.

You really are a piece of work. As others here have noted, you've chosen to interpret Holland's words in the most negative manner possible. I really don't understand your motivations.

Enjoy your summer folks.

You too. See you in October.

number9 likes this

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Sweet zombie jesus, I just don't get all of this angst over what Holland is saying in the media. His comments always strike me as the GM equivalent of a players "We just have to skate hard & put more pucks on net" cliched answer to a reporter's question. Just the typical hockey answer meant to not give too much away. While I can't guarantee that the message being sent behind the scenes in the organ-i-zation are vastly different from what Kenny's saying in public, I would still rather hear him talk like this to the media then take a "We're screwed! Close all the shops in the mall! Cancel the 3 ring circus! The sky is falling!" approach to sound bites about the roster. Yeah, if he did that, he would really attract the UFAs then wouldn't he?

Edit: I'm sure that would endear him to the players currently on the roster too.

Edited by ogreslayer
number9 and Frozen-Man like this

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(1) It's wise not to overspend. Whatever the cap turns out to be this year, the Wings shouldn't spend just to spend. Don't plug holes. Since the big UFA's didn't sign in Detroit, look to next year's free agents.

(2) Go with a youth movement now (and finally). Give the youngsters in the organization a chance. Additionally, no one knows if the big UFA's next year will sign in Detroit or elsewhere. Best to rely on known quantities.

(3) The Wings should consider trading away aging vets with value and possibly stars for quality prospects and decent draft picks. I don't know how many of you were fans of the Wings during the Bryan Murray era, but it was a fun time. Lots of new young players, lots of optimism and hope. Yes, it took Bowman to solidify the team and the Shanahan trade to put the Wings over the top, but the possibilities and hope of the young team was exciting to watch. The long term benefits also reaped much post-season rewards.

WingsAlways and Rick D like this

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Sweet zombie jesus, I just don't get all of this angst over what Holland is saying in the media. His comments always strike me as the GM equivalent of a players "We just have to skate hard & put more pucks on net" cliched answer to a reporter's question. Just the typical hockey answer meant to not give too much away

Precisely correct.

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Okay, so let's sort this out - Weber is around $7.5 million averaged salary, so compensation would be two 1st's, a 2nd, and a 3rd rounder. I believe the Wings still have those 2013 picks, correct? The Wings offer some massive deal, say, 12 years/$105 million ($8.75 million cap hit) and front-load the crap out of it. If NAS could match that, wouldn't they already have offered it? Do we really care about losing those picks if the payoff is SHEA WEBER?

And if Nashville did somehow match, we've really lost nothing except for the assumption that Weber might have signed with us next season anyway, instead of the 28 other teams. I think it would be pretty arrogant of Holland to just assume that Detroit is automatic destination that can lure anyone away from PIT, PHI, or any other decent up-and-coming team with cap room.

What you aren't factoring in is that Webber likely won't sign such an offer sheet, he has a different variable than the Wings do. His "risk" is that the Preds actually do match the offer and then he is stuck with them for 12 years. If he really wants out of Nashville why would he risk the Preds matching, if they do he is bound by the contract for the next 12 years. His other option is to sign a 1 year deal with Nashville and then get to go wherever he wants with no risk that he is stuck with a lifetime deal with the Preds. A better option if you are going to do that is to offer him an outrageous 1 year deal one so high it screws the Preds if he signs and they match it, if they don't we have him for a year and get the exclusive rights to negotiate a long term deal, either way he is done with the Preds either immediately or at the end of the season. The only major downside (and probably much to rich to make it a good decision) is all the draft picks lost.

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Everyone needs to calm down, its July 12th, still months from October and the start of hockey season, there is still a lot of time. This team does have needs, but honestly, what can he say? 'The wings need to make huge trade/get a FA at any cost'... If he says that well any cost will be higher than it would have been otherwise, and that says a lot because its already a sellers market. Calm down, enjoy the warm, dry weather in Michigan, and realize that until the season starts Kenny does have time.

ogreslayer likes this

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Disappointing to say the least. Here's some highlights from a couple morning articles. Don't expect any new Red Wings anytime soon folks!

. . .

Yes Holland, you're right. It's not like we have any kind of scoring problem and desperately need a top 6 forward, despite the fact that we scored an average of 1.8 goals per game during the playoffs AND our own coach said we lost due to weakness in scoring potential for our 2nd and 3rd lines. Sure Holland, all is fine.

And yeah, saying Smith and Quincey will replace Lidstrom and Stuart, respectively, is in it's own level of idiocy alone.

Enjoy your summer folks.

Did you believe this guy too?

It's called posturing.

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