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ShanahanMan

Holland Content with Current Roster

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He doesn't spend money just to spend it, if it's not the right deal he won't do it because if e did he wouldn't be able to make the right one when that opportunity comes along.

There are going to be a lot of big physical skilled players (what we need) in next year's UFA crop an some of them will be available in trades this year as salary dumps or their current teams won't be able to retain them because of poor fiscal management and until the right one comes along we will be able to give some youngsters a better look for evaluation purposes and for their development all of which will make us a much stronger team in the long run than overspending on someone because we have the cap space.

Even in his last year Rafalski led all d-men in PPG, there is no comparison. I'm sure Holland would have loved to have Ehroff at $4mill but somebody beat him to the punch, I would much rather have Holland then whoever is managing the Sabres, I would rather have Holland then any of the other GMs and I think so would most if not all of the owners

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch. Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have. I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff. Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less. Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).

p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.

Edited by kipwinger

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Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).

Where have you been all my life?

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch. Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have. I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff. Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less. Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).

p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.

I don't think Vancouver would have traded Ehroff's right to Detroit

I wasn't saying it was you but people here have called for his firing and many more have implied he is incompetent and if he truly were he should be fired, but he is in actuality the best in the business

Edited by Johnz96

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Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.

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Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.

Ray Shero had the luxury of drafting very high for years and then finally built a team around that core of high draft picks that only managed to win one Cup before some of those key players started to degrade in ability or leave (Staal). Aside from taking advantage of high draft picks, I don't see anything in particular that he has done that makes him a better GM than Holland.

If Holland thinks Semin will be a cancer in the locker room then a one-year deal is pointless, no matter how much cap space he has to work with. Let Brunner and the kids show what they can do instead of wasting roster space on an even less motivated Franzen-type.

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Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.

The key here is UFA. He can go where he likes. Holland can offer him a one year deal at 10 million, but if he wants to make less and go to the Pens, then Holland can't do anything about it.

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I'm looking forward to watching the young guys play this year. I don't see a point in over paying for Free Agents when Nyquist, Brunner, and Smith are ready to go.

Looking at the roster, we have a good mix of youth, vets, stars, speed, and grit. It should be a fun year!

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The key here is UFA. He can go where he likes. Holland can offer him a one year deal at 10 million, but if he wants to make less and go to the Pens, then Holland can't do anything about it.

Wait you mean an unrestricted free agent can sign for with any team he likes without even having to justify his decision in any way? This is bulls***! Looks like there's a new item for the CBA negotations. Get er done Bettman.

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I'm looking forward to watching the young guys play this year. I don't see a point in over paying for Free Agents when Nyquist, Brunner, and Smith are ready to go.

Looking at the roster, we have a good mix of youth, vets, stars, speed, and grit. It should be a fun year!

You'll be watching those young guys as you're also watching old people like Bertuzzi, Holmstrom and Samuelsson wasting space out there.

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Guest Heaten   
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Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.

Ray Shero? What has he won since their cup run? Isn't their playoff record basically the same as ours? Also, don't they get to pick the top players in the draft because they tanked for like 20 years? Lastly, didn't they just trade away a young, big scoring 2-way center for peanuts?

Lol, yeah, that Ray Shero is soooo great =D

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Ray Shero? What has he won since their cup run? Isn't their playoff record basically the same as ours? Also, don't they get to pick the top players in the draft because they tanked for like 20 years? Lastly, didn't they just trade away a young, big scoring 2-way center for peanuts?

Lol, yeah, that Ray Shero is soooo great =D

Don't forget the albatross contract to Paul Martin the defensive savior. Actually, what Shero did there in signing an average player to an above average salary and term and give him an above average role to fill the defensive void is exactly what Holland refuses to do this year. Interestingly enough most Pens fans want Martin removed to get that cap space back. Funny that situation should make its way into this thread of all threads...

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I think that Holland should NEVER be content! EVER! He needs to be in perpetual motion! Changing, bettering, just frickin let go of Franzine! Trade Filppula for Ryan!!! Selanne wants him there and will press the Ducks to make the deal!

Just NEVER EVER be content! You have to be better than 29 other GM's...never settle...

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I think that Holland should NEVER be content! EVER! He needs to be in perpetual motion! Changing, bettering, just frickin let go of Franzine! Trade Filppula for Ryan!!! Selanne wants him there and will press the Ducks to make the deal!

Just NEVER EVER be content! You have to be better than 29 other GM's...never settle...

I'd like to have Ryan on the roster as well, but Fil on a line with Selanne would be downright dangerous! Double edged sword...

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Same old s*** from Holland.

He's done nothing of significance the last several deadlines and offseasons.

This offseason, his big accomplishment is signing a 4th liner that any GM could have signed and that old goof Samuelsson, who we don't need at this point. And that's coming off three early playoff exits in a row and the retirement of your best player for the last decade.

I don't know what our record will be next season, but the offseason up until now has been a disaster. But Holland's mentality is, "All is well"

Couldn't agree more!!!

This is what it is like trying to talk to some members of this board right now

This can be said for people on both sides of the argument.

That defense sounds better to me than Doughty, Greene, Mitchell, Martinez, Voynov and Scuderi

or

Salvador, Zidlicky, Harrold, Fayne, Volchenkov and Greene

You mean both the defenses that just played for the Stanley Cup? Granted, neither are standout D corps and Detroit's isn't terrible, but both NJ's and LA's are solid.

21 straight playoff appearances (might I mind you the longest streak in PROFESSIONAL SPORTS HISTORY)

Not true. While it is the longest ACTIVE streak in the North American Big 4 pro sports, it is only tied for 5th in NHL history and tied for 6th overall, behind Boston Bruins (29 years), Chicago Blackhawks (28), St Louis Blues (25), Montreal Canadiens (22), Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers (22), and tied with Montreal and Portland TrailBlazers at 21 straight years. (via Wikipedia)

Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

As someone already stated, White spent most of the season paired with Lidstrom. Most of these players would have had at least similar seasons, if not better, than White's. He was not the same without Lidstrom. And Cam Fowler is what, 20? When's the last time Detroit had a defenseman good enough to play in the NHL at that young age??

Since when is making the playoffs year in, year out "not doing anything"?

In 2010 Red Wings had very little assets.

Since he didn't have to do anything to have the team make the playoffs again. Question is, is just making the playoffs good enough for a franchise that says they expect to comepte for the Cup EVERY YEAR? Is it good enough for you?

And whose fault is it that they didn't have anyone tradeable in 2010? Certainly not mine... not yours... it is Ken Holland's.

There is absolutely nothing better any of you could have done. Period.

That's a pretty easy statement to make when there's no way to prove it right or wrong...

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone. Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost. In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades. He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league. Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.

That first sentence is an outdated cliche. Every organization scouts Canada, the US, and Europe/Russia thoroughly. Gone are the days of slipping Pavel Datsyuk through the cracks because nobody else saw him playing in his third-tier league. Long gone are the days of drafting Nick Lidstrom and Sergei Fedorov anywhere outside the top 5 because you weren't sure you could get them to come to the NHL. Detroit was a pioneer in Europe, but the rest of the league has followed. And every team produces late-round gems, not just Detroit. Actually, if you compare every team's draft history over the last 15-20 years, Detroit's does not really stand out, there are a handful of teams I'd put as equal or better in the scouting/drafting/developing department.

And yes, the Wings' organization treats the players VERY well... they're generally sheltered from the media and public, the Wings were one of the first teams to fly a private plane, and there are a lot of little perks we don't get to see. But that falls largely on Ilitch, it's his organizational policy, not Holland's. Holland is a benefactor of that policy himself, being a former minor-league player turned scout turned GM. He's been a part of the organization since 1983. He's just following along the company line.

My biggest issue with "keeping homegrown talent" is that, despite obvious shortcomings in some postseasons, the same players are kept around year after year after year. Holland has said (and I don't know where to find the quote, so I'll paraphrase) that he "doesn't believe in trading away assets. Once you get them, you hang on to them." Well, sometimes those assets underachieve when they're being counted on the most. Sometimes trading away one asset (for equal value in return) can inject new life into the rest of the remaining players, as they may decide they don't want to be traded away too, so maybe they better pick it up. Just because you have a recipe that works, doesn't mean you don't tinker with that recipe a little, including removing an ingredient and replacing it with something different. Because right now, I think the Wings' core is very, very complacent, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.

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I see other teams trying to improve all the time. There are trades that could be made to improve the team. Hossa sought detroit out, holland didnt go looking. Too much inaction. he doesnt have to trade the team away or all the prospects, but if he doesnt do anything in the next few months I will not be impressed to say the least. He inherited a great team, and a great nucleus of people in the organization.

We have too many forward prospects maturing soon, and not nearly enough spots when they are ready, plus on average they are a bit too small. I would be incuding some of those into trades to help the team now. Even if he didnt hands down win a trade, or even slightly lost one, it wouldnt destroy our future at all, and would help fill one or two holes that need to be filled now.

Edited by Probie

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I will give this roster 10 games. If we aren't looking good in 10 games, I'm thinking this noise might be rumbling up from the stands...

FI-RE HOLL-AND

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Couldn't agree more!!!

This can be said for people on both sides of the argument.

You mean both the defenses that just played for the Stanley Cup? Granted, neither are standout D corps and Detroit's isn't terrible, but both NJ's and LA's are solid.

Not true. While it is the longest ACTIVE streak in the North American Big 4 pro sports, it is only tied for 5th in NHL history and tied for 6th overall, behind Boston Bruins (29 years), Chicago Blackhawks (28), St Louis Blues (25), Montreal Canadiens (22), Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers (22), and tied with Montreal and Portland TrailBlazers at 21 straight years. (via Wikipedia)

As someone already stated, White spent most of the season paired with Lidstrom. Most of these players would have had at least similar seasons, if not better, than White's. He was not the same without Lidstrom. And Cam Fowler is what, 20? When's the last time Detroit had a defenseman good enough to play in the NHL at that young age??

Since he didn't have to do anything to have the team make the playoffs again. Question is, is just making the playoffs good enough for a franchise that says they expect to comepte for the Cup EVERY YEAR? Is it good enough for you?

And whose fault is it that they didn't have anyone tradeable in 2010? Certainly not mine... not yours... it is Ken Holland's.

That's a pretty easy statement to make when there's no way to prove it right or wrong...

That first sentence is an outdated cliche. Every organization scouts Canada, the US, and Europe/Russia thoroughly. Gone are the days of slipping Pavel Datsyuk through the cracks because nobody else saw him playing in his third-tier league. Long gone are the days of drafting Nick Lidstrom and Sergei Fedorov anywhere outside the top 5 because you weren't sure you could get them to come to the NHL. Detroit was a pioneer in Europe, but the rest of the league has followed. And every team produces late-round gems, not just Detroit. Actually, if you compare every team's draft history over the last 15-20 years, Detroit's does not really stand out, there are a handful of teams I'd put as equal or better in the scouting/drafting/developing department.

And yes, the Wings' organization treats the players VERY well... they're generally sheltered from the media and public, the Wings were one of the first teams to fly a private plane, and there are a lot of little perks we don't get to see. But that falls largely on Ilitch, it's his organizational policy, not Holland's. Holland is a benefactor of that policy himself, being a former minor-league player turned scout turned GM. He's been a part of the organization since 1983. He's just following along the company line.

My biggest issue with "keeping homegrown talent" is that, despite obvious shortcomings in some postseasons, the same players are kept around year after year after year. Holland has said (and I don't know where to find the quote, so I'll paraphrase) that he "doesn't believe in trading away assets. Once you get them, you hang on to them." Well, sometimes those assets underachieve when they're being counted on the most. Sometimes trading away one asset (for equal value in return) can inject new life into the rest of the remaining players, as they may decide they don't want to be traded away too, so maybe they better pick it up. Just because you have a recipe that works, doesn't mean you don't tinker with that recipe a little, including removing an ingredient and replacing it with something different. Because right now, I think the Wings' core is very, very complacent, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.

Good post.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

I will give this roster 10 games. If we aren't looking good in 10 games, I'm thinking this noise might be rumbling up from the stands...

FI-RE HOLL-AND

I will bite my tongue on this one

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I will give this roster 10 games. If we aren't looking good in 10 games, I'm thinking this noise might be rumbling up from the stands...

FI-RE HOLL-AND

I'm pretty sure the general population isn't as manic as this board and if it is, I will have lost faith in the rest of the Red Wings fan base...

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

I'm pretty sure the general population isn't as manic as this board and if it is, I will have lost faith in the rest of the Red Wings fan base...

A lot of the Wings fans on RWC and Bleacher report are just as

bad (refraining myself so I don't say anything that could be deemed a personal attack)

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I'm with you. There are people on this board who would rather that we trade away our prospects every year for the next big thing. These same people were moaning last year when Nashville scooped up all the available guys at the trade deadline last spring. How did that work out? Look at San Jose. They make a big trade almost every year. And what do they get for it? No trips to the finals and a group of prospects that are ranked #30 in the league according to Hockey's Future. I agree with Kenny. Don't trade away your asset

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I'm with you. There are people on this board who would rather that we trade away our prospects every year for the next big thing. These same people were moaning last year when Nashville scooped up all the available guys at the trade deadline last spring. How did that work out? Look at San Jose. They make a big trade almost every year. And what do they get for it? No trips to the finals and a group of prospects that are ranked #30 in the league according to Hockey's Future. I agree with Kenny. Don't trade away your asset

Yea look at Nashville, they beat the Wings, and got one round further than the Wings. And of course you didn't mention the big trade last season that LA was involved in... look where they ended up...

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