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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#341 evilmrt

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 02:15 PM

Scott Gomez, Joey Crabb, and Nate Thompson have all signed with the Alaska Aces of the ECHL. Um....there are no waiver requirements like the AHL here? If not, I wonder why no Wings that are complaining about wanting to stay home near family aren't going to Toledo (Helm comes to mind).

#342 Nightfall

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 02:41 PM

FYI: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405739 is the PAs second (and most recent) proposal. Details of the first were never all that clear, but it seems the first three years were very similar (maybe identical), but the first had a 4th year at 57% instead of the two years described in that link.

The owners initial offer was well documented, their second was reportedly mostly the same, but changed the players share to 46%. Their last offer has few details, other than it was "simplified". Revenue split is also given in the link above. However, according to Bettman, that offer was taken off the table when the lockout started so the details don't really matter.

The PA has made two proposals. The 2nd was around ~2% less than the first. (Hard to say for sure, since the players are asking for a set $ amount rather than a set %. The % will depend on actual growth.)

The owners have made 3 proposals. The last around 5% higher than the first, though really it was the only one that was at least somewhat realistic. Also, it is supposed to be off the table now.

Thanks for providing the source.

One thing is for certain, the owners did come off of their lowball offer. Who knows if that offer is off the table or not. Lets say that they went up 5%. That would mean that instead of 57-43 in favor of the owners, it would be 52-48 in favor of the owners. The NHLPA has also come down a bit as well as you said. They should be continuing to bargain back and forth until a deal is met. They have already come down a good amount over what they started with. I guess neither side wants to come down much more than they already have.

i dont see why its 100% up to the NHLPA to come up with the next proposal. the nhl made it clear that all past offers were off the table so the ball isn't in anyones court really.

This is a good point. I forgot about that little tidbit of information. Still, Fehr could be the bigger man here and come forward with a proposal at this stage. Its readily apparent that the ownership isn't going to man up in this situation and try to play the public relations game instead. The NHLPA could score some big points in public relations by coming to the table on Sunday with a new proposal.
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#343 rrasco

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:05 PM

Rangers forward Rick Nash, who is playing for Swiss side HC Davos, injured his shoulder on Friday in a game and will be evaluated Saturday.


It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the whole insurance thing.

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#344 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:38 PM

NHL Players' Association head Donald Fehr and NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman held a second round of private talks Saturday in an effort to move closer to an agreement that would end the ongoing lockout.


Clarifications as to what will fall under the umbrella of hockey-related revenue going forward in the next agreement dominated discussions Saturday. No concrete resolutions were made, and the topic could be revisited on Sunday.
"I am not sure if we have identified discrepancies," NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said. "I think the nature of what we were trying to do today was to create certainty on interpretations we've had over seven years of this CBA operation.

"The whole process is a bit complicated when you're trying to define revenue streams and what should be in and what should be out (of hockey-related revenue)," Steve Fehr said. "It's a bit complicated between the fact that their most recent economic offer says they will go back to the current definitions, yet they are seeking some changes or clarifications in what the current definitions are."


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=406365

Great, so they're still trying to agree on what exactly happened during the last CBA? And they're still not even working with a fixed definition of HRR, which is ridiculous. How can you negotiate divvying up the pot when you haven't even determined how big the pot is?

The league's position still appears to be that they're waiting for a counterproposal from the union with "meaningful" concessions, in response to the league's offer before the deadline.

Though Bettman made quiet clear that proposal was off the table after the deadline, so I'm confused. Is the league saying that offer is still on the table? Or are they waiting for the union to respond to a proposal that's no longer valid?

#345 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:09 PM

What's the point in saying something is unanimous if it wasn't. To show tha the owner's are united and will hold strong? Well, if there are some owners that don't agree, why would they agree to pretent they do?

It could be because after his '95 lockout, Bettman got the voting rules changed so it took three quarters of the owners to overrule him (23 out of 30), instead of the more than half that overruled him in 1995. If he has the support of 8 owners, there's no overruling him.

Why cast a vote against something when you know it will only burn bridges with other owners and the commissioner, but won't actually accomplish anything?

Bettman has already shown how vindictive he can be with his own ownership. A few years back the Rangers didn't want the league to run their team website and filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the NHL. Bettman countersued and threatened punishment ranging from fining the franchise, suspending it, or even forcing ownership to sell it.

After the '95 lockout resulted in salvaging a half season of hockey because the owners overruled him, Bettman managed to consolidate his power while squelching dissent, being able to fine the owners up to $1 million for divulging internal league matters. We saw what the Red Wings just got hit with because of Jimmy D's comments.

http://www.nytimes.c...rcer.html?_r=2

#346 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:29 PM

One thing is for certain, the owners did come off of their lowball offer. Who knows if that offer is off the table or not. Lets say that they went up 5%. That would mean that instead of 57-43 in favor of the owners, it would be 52-48 in favor of the owners. The NHLPA has also come down a bit as well as you said. They should be continuing to bargain back and forth until a deal is met. They have already come down a good amount over what they started with. I guess neither side wants to come down much more than they already have.


I believe neither of the NHLPA offers had a rollback of existing contracts in it. As far as I understand players are very much against it (to the point of Ovechkin stating that he is not coming back from KHL if his contract if not honored in full). I think if NHL continues to insist on immediate salary rollback we might not see NHL hockey for a while.

On the other hand KHL hockey is not that bad. At least they make a difference between regulation and overtime/shootout wins and losses. TV production quality is not up to NHL's standard. But Datsyuk plays for a team (CSKA) where Sergei Fedorov is GM.

#347 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:46 PM

END IT.

"All done? Five bucks." - Pavel Datsyuk after an interview
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#348 Nightfall

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:07 PM

I believe neither of the NHLPA offers had a rollback of existing contracts in it. As far as I understand players are very much against it (to the point of Ovechkin stating that he is not coming back from KHL if his contract if not honored in full). I think if NHL continues to insist on immediate salary rollback we might not see NHL hockey for a while.

On the other hand KHL hockey is not that bad. At least they make a difference between regulation and overtime/shootout wins and losses. TV production quality is not up to NHL's standard. But Datsyuk plays for a team (CSKA) where Sergei Fedorov is GM.

I agree with you. The NHLPA should not have to rollback existing contracts. They should be paid.

I think I am going to sub to hockeystreams.com for KHL action this season. Hell, its $99, but at least I will catch a lot of hockey action this season.
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#349 Nightfall

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:15 PM

The league's position still appears to be that they're waiting for a counterproposal from the union with "meaningful" concessions, in response to the league's offer before the deadline.

Though Bettman made quiet clear that proposal was off the table after the deadline, so I'm confused. Is the league saying that offer is still on the table? Or are they waiting for the union to respond to a proposal that's no longer valid?

This is why you can't take everything the press says for face value. Maybe the last proposal by the league is still valid. Maybe it isn't. There is so much information that the public is not privy to. Which is why taking sides is tough to do.
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#350 Seraph

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:54 PM

I'm just glad the two sides are at least talking. Going on to two days in a row now. Not too shabby.

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#351 Johnz96

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:47 AM

This is why you can't take everything the press says for face value. Maybe the last proposal by the league is still valid. Maybe it isn't. There is so much information that the public is not privy to. Which is why taking sides is tough to do.

Bettman and the owners are trying to renege on contracts they signed and offered the players in the first place and are locking them (and us) out to do so. If they don't want to pay the players as much they shouldn't offer as much in the first place. It's as simple as that.
The CBA has expired 3x during Bettman's tenure as commissioner of the NHL and he has locked us out every time. He uses it as a negotiating tactic.
The players can't just let Bettman lock them (and us) out every time the CBA expires to get what he wants.
And to all those that say Bettman only works for the owners and does what he wants

He didn't do it on his own, but it sure wasn't the players pulling the trigger on the league's god awful business decisions (overzealous expansion, failure to admit mistakes, failure to properly vet prospective owners, over-sized goalie equipment, crappy television contracts, league scheduling, instigator rule, lockouts every time the CBA expires, etc.).
The owners deserve plenty of the blame for the current mess, but Bettman was hired to manage and run the league. Like shareholders of a corporation, the owners don't really run the league. They may own it, but they have delegated most of their managerial rights to Bettman. In fact Bettman has a severely punishable gag order placed on them. Bettman does make decisions, and these decisions do in fact have consequences.

Edited by Johnz96, 30 September 2012 - 12:55 AM.


#352 Johnz96

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:25 AM

It's over. We should still boycott spending money on the NHL until Bettman is gone

#353 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:29 AM

It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the whole insurance thing.


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#354 Johnz96

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:36 AM

It is a hoax http://imageshack.us...68/lockoutc.jpg

#355 toby91_ca

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:29 AM

Thanks for providing the source.

One thing is for certain, the owners did come off of their lowball offer. Who knows if that offer is off the table or not. Lets say that they went up 5%. That would mean that instead of 57-43 in favor of the owners, it would be 52-48 in favor of the owners. The NHLPA has also come down a bit as well as you said. They should be continuing to bargain back and forth until a deal is met. They have already come down a good amount over what they started with. I guess neither side wants to come down much more than they already have.

The difference here is that the starting point (expiring CBA) was 57%. Owners came in with a new offer of 43%. If the NHLPA were to take the same approach, they should have started at 71%, but their initial offer was already a move towards what the owners want.

#356 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:43 AM

From TSN:


On a night when he was supposedly to be playing against the New York Islanders in pre-season action, veteran tough guy Krys Barch (@krysbarch) took to twitter on Saturday night to voice his thoughts on the current NHL lockout.

"I feel the Wild West would be more simplified than the world we live in now, when an employer who makes billions of dollars and a league with record revenues can tell me that I can't do the things that my heart tells me to do! All what my heart tells me to do far surpasses what my body has endured," said Barch, who signed a two-year, $1.5 million contract with the New Jersey Devils in July.


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#357 frankgrimes

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:51 AM

I really hope the players drag this out till the owners are coming to their senses and/or are firing this 8 million waste of human flesh.

Record revenues but some franchises are losing money? Move them to places that do appreciate hockey or open the real books! Even the guy who owned the Yotes sold them for way more than they are worth. Effing billionaires crying poor but are wasting a huge junk off money on failed franchises.

Who cares about growing the game? Rather see places who love hockey getting a team but yeahg not gonna happen this midget.

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#358 drwscc

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:09 PM

Yeah! Let's take the advice of an internet warrior rather than teams of people with MBA's and extensive knowledge of the league, TV contracts, and business.

frankgrimes says your team is unsustainable, Mr. Yzerman, so you're fired so Moosejaw Saskatchewan can have an NHL team.
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#359 frankgrimes

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

Yeah! Let's take the advice of an internet warrior rather than teams of people with MBA's and extensive knowledge of the league, TV contracts, and business.

frankgrimes says your team is unsustainable, Mr. Yzerman, so you're fired so Moosejaw Saskatchewan can have an NHL team.


Yeah! Let's take the advice of an internet I know it all guy rather than teams of people with MBA's and extensive hockeyknowledge.

drwscc says your team is giving out contracts, they can't afford to and losing money everywhere but worry not, the leagues backbone clubs are going to pay for you and my BFF Gary will fight for you so soon you can have your 5.000 attendency SC parade again...thanks drwscc

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#360 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

Let's keep the discussion here about the negotiations without making it personal. Otherwise there will be edits/deletions/suspensions.

Thanks.





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