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Helm brings a lot of what teams are looking for. If he can show he doesn't look out of place in a threatening top 6 he would a huge asset. Helm can hang on to the puck great. His play around the net is questionable but still way better then Abby. Good things happen when Helm is on the ice. Abby can't have the puck on his stick for more then 5 seconds huge difference. The key is staying healthy

Helm was scoring at a nice pace before being injured. Playing with Dats and Z he will no doubt achieve career highs

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Helm on the top line is very interesting, providing it lasts more than 2 periods in the preseason. He demonstrated flashes of offensive talent when he returned last year, much to the surprise of LGW, so maybe he can be a contributor. What interests me the most is his speed paired with Datsyuk's vision/hands. With Helm's wheels, its going to force the defense to back off and respect that a bit, especially on the breakout. At the same time, a player like Datsyuk you want to play tight, and stick close to him. That dynamic could be trouble for defense if they aren't careful (especially if Helm finally learns how to capitalize on his opportunities).

I just don't know if he'll be as effective in real life.

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Helm on the top line is very interesting, providing it lasts more than 2 periods in the preseason. He demonstrated flashes of offensive talent when he returned last year, much to the surprise of LGW, so maybe he can be a contributor. What interests me the most is his speed paired with Datsyuk's vision/hands. With Helm's wheels, its going to force the defense to back off and respect that a bit, especially on the breakout. At the same time, a player like Datsyuk you want to play tight, and stick close to him. That dynamic could be trouble for defense if they aren't careful (especially if Helm finally learns how to capitalize on his opportunities).

I just don't know if he'll be as effective in real life.

Exactly. And this is why I wonder why people are so hesitant about this. personally I think it's a great idea. With Pavel and Hank together, we don't necessarily need someone with all the tools of a top line winger. With Helm's speed and his ability to crash and bang and generally create havoc, and Pavel dishing the puck, it frees Hank to shoot more. (remember, it wasn't so long ago that he scored 40)

Plus, I think Helm's offensive ability is a tad underrated. He's got better hands than Abby for a start. And he scored 12 goals in only 42 games last year, well above his career pace, playing 3rd line minutes. With a better quality of line mates surrounding him, who's to say he can't get 25 in a full season?

And if it's not working, then change it up. But there's certainly no harm in trying.

krsmith17 likes this

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LOL people were mad about Abby up there? My god helm is an even worse idea with Abby. Look at the bright side? Helm will be injured quickly and jurco will then be called up!!!!

It's bad to laugh, but its so true.

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I know this will seem like a totally crazy concept but here goes. If we've got so many centers that we can't find spots for them all...and one as good as Helm has to be moved to the wing...couldn't we have traded one of them in a package for a natural winger? Isn't that how other teams do it? Trade the thing you have in abundance for the thing you don't have much of?

Edited by kipwinger

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Helm's value is pretty low right now due to his injury history better to keep him. If he goes off and has an incredible season while staying healthy his value will sky rocket maybe around the trade deadline. Who knows who will be on the table at that time

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I know this will seem like a totally crazy concept but here goes. If we've got so many centers that we can't find spots for them all...and one as good as Helm has to be moved to the wing...couldn't we have traded one of them in a package for a natural winger? Isn't that how other teams do it? Trade the thing you have in abundance for the thing you don't have much of?

That's a good idea except that Weiss is still a big question mark. If he doesn't work as our #2 center we'll need our extra centers. If he proves to be the player others say he is, someone could become expendable. I think we just wait and see.

Love this idea from Babs. Helm is too good for the fourth line, but I couldn't see a way around it. Helm absolutely has better hands than Abby. 12g in 42 games without playing with Datsyuk or Zetterberg. And for whoever said he doesn't have the ability to finish all the chances he creates - How about having D and Z around to pick up his rebounds?

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I prefer Andersson out of the two, but both are expendable in reality. The Wings are already set up the middle with Weiss back, so I don't really see where Andersson or Glendening fit into the picture without injuries.

Jurco was a fringe NHL player because he wasn't even 21 years old and then he proved during his time that he was good enough to stay. Glendening, Andersson and Callahan are fringe NHL players because none of them possess a skill set that is anything special to warrant an every day roster spot. Skill isn't the question with Jurco -- he held his own in a third line role and has immense talent to continue developing against quality competition.

My argument has nothing to do with whether Jurco will make the team. That status was pretty much cemented by Cleary, maybe Alfie and the previously mentioned guys. My stance is that Jurco should be playing for the Red Wings regardless of his Grand Rapids option, the "logjam" at forward or whatever other reason people use for sending him down.

Some agree more with Holland's overripe strategy and that's fine. I do think it has its merits at times and has worked before. However, I do believe it should be on a case-by-case basis instead of this overriding philosophical organizational belief that we cling to no matter what. Sending Jurco down "just because you can" is silly and a cop out to keep lesser players around that don't help the team win now or in the future. It's not like the Red Wings are this juggernaut championship contender anymore where they can afford to stash young talent in the minors.

Bang on.

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I prefer Andersson out of the two, but both are expendable in reality. The Wings are already set up the middle with Weiss back, so I don't really see where Andersson or Glendening fit into the picture without injuries.

Jurco was a fringe NHL player because he wasn't even 21 years old and then he proved during his time that he was good enough to stay. Glendening, Andersson and Callahan are fringe NHL players because none of them possess a skill set that is anything special to warrant an every day roster spot. Skill isn't the question with Jurco -- he held his own in a third line role and has immense talent to continue developing against quality competition.

My argument has nothing to do with whether Jurco will make the team. That status was pretty much cemented by Cleary, maybe Alfie and the previously mentioned guys. My stance is that Jurco should be playing for the Red Wings regardless of his Grand Rapids option, the "logjam" at forward or whatever other reason people use for sending him down.

Some agree more with Holland's overripe strategy and that's fine. I do think it has its merits at times and has worked before. However, I do believe it should be on a case-by-case basis instead of this overriding philosophical organizational belief that we cling to no matter what. Sending Jurco down "just because you can" is silly and a cop out to keep lesser players around that don't help the team win now or in the future. It's not like the Red Wings are this juggernaut championship contender anymore where they can afford to stash young talent in the minors.

He's fast, good on the defensive side, and nasty to play against. Andersson is slow, good on the defensive side, and not agitating what so ever. There's a reason Babs loves Glendening. Callahan seems to be shaping up to be a Clarkson type (before Toronto). He goes to dirty areas and scores. Great compliment to more skilled players. To say they are both worthless expendable players is just as much a cop out as clinging to the over-ripening strategy for no good reason.

I'm more interested in seeing Jurco start the season in GR for business reasons. Say what you want about over-ripening. Starting Jurco is extremely poor asset protection. Giving away anything for nothing is just dumb, bad business, no matter how disinterested you seem to be in our other young players.

At the very least play them 10 games with Jurco in the minors so you can see which ones you want to keep and which you want to trade. Then trade or send the expendable ones to waivers and call up Jurco.

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I've always liked the idea of Helm flanking Datsyuk (provided the other winger is a high-skill player, e.g. Zetterberg, with Helm being the pitbull of the three). My only issue with it - and it's a legitimate concern - is that our bottom six will be without our best bottom-six shutdown center and, arguably, our best bottom-six defensive forward, period.

I want three scoring lines and a fourth line that can go up against anyone, anytime, anywhere. While I like Glendening a lot, a fourth line centered by him is not going to be as good as those same two wingers centered by Helm. And while I like Andersson and would probably take him as our fourth line center over Glendening in that role...he's not Helm. And while I love Sheahan, he was seriously sheltered this past season in terms of zone starts and quality of competition, so I wouldn't necessarily want him centering our (hypothetical) killer shutdown line that can go up against anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Then again, Abdelkader on the fourth line and not the first = good. And Abdelkader, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, Cleary, Callahan (?), Ferraro (?) is a good pool; you could pull a better-than-average fourth line from it. And, again, I like the idea of Helm on Datsyuk's wing, even if he's out of his depth skill-wise. If he can stay healthy, he could be a respectable point-producer.

About our situation at center - being overloaded at the position is a good problem to have. From a tactical standpoint, I know Babcock likes for his wingers to be capable centermen, mostly for faceoff purposes. Also, there's always at least one team that's dying for a good centerman. Edmonton, for example. I like Jeff Petry...

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He's fast, good on the defensive side, and nasty to play against. Andersson is slow, good on the defensive side, and not agitating what so ever. There's a reason Babs loves Glendening. Callahan seems to be shaping up to be a Clarkson type (before Toronto). He goes to dirty areas and scores. Great compliment to more skilled players. To say they are both worthless expendable players is just as much a cop out as clinging to the over-ripening strategy for no good reason.

I'm more interested in seeing Jurco start the season in GR for business reasons. Say what you want about over-ripening. Starting Jurco is extremely poor asset protection. Giving away anything for nothing is just dumb, bad business, no matter how disinterested you seem to be in our other young players.

At the very least play them 10 games with Jurco in the minors so you can see which ones you want to keep and which you want to trade. Then trade or send the expendable ones to waivers and call up Jurco.

I mean you hit on the areas Glendening is superior to Andersson, but neglected the other side. Andersson has more offensive ability (not saying much compared to Glendening), is better at faceoffs and penalty killing, while being very comparable defensively to Glendening. So far, Andersson's best showing of hockey (playoffs 2013) is more impressive than anything Glendening has displayed. Again, I don't really care if either is on the team, but I think Glendening is severely overhyped because of the agitating angle.

I guess we will just agree to disagree on Jurco. I don't really care about losing players for nothing if they are expendable for starters. If Callahan is worthy of a roster spot, that's what the pre-season is for him to go out and earn it. The Red Wings can't afford a ten game tryout for the regular season since they are more than likely going to be fighting for their playoff lives again.

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I mean you hit on the areas Glendening is superior to Andersson, but neglected the other side. Andersson has more offensive ability (not saying much compared to Glendening), is better at faceoffs and penalty killing, while being very comparable defensively to Glendening. So far, Andersson's best showing of hockey (playoffs 2013) is more impressive than anything Glendening has displayed. Again, I don't really care if either is on the team, but I think Glendening is severely overhyped because of the agitating angle.

I guess we will just agree to disagree on Jurco. I don't really care about losing players for nothing if they are expendable for starters. If Callahan is worthy of a roster spot, that's what the pre-season is for him to go out and earn it. The Red Wings can't afford a ten game tryout for the regular season since they are more than likely going to be fighting for their playoff lives again.

IMO that's not what you want from a 4th line C or any 4th line player. You are on the 4th line to shutdown defensively and fight, check, and agitate. Everything the top lines don't do. Andersson has a good defensive mindset and can win FO's but Glendening is a gym freak, mouth running, maltby type. I'd take his 7 pts over Andersson's 17 pts on the 4th line everyday of the week. Plus Glendening is tremendously faster than Andersson. Speed has been the name of the game for years now.

The point I'm advocating is keeping our top guy (Jurco) while also giving our unproven guys a chance. I think that's incredibly fair. Everyone stays with the team as long as they perform. Jurco was good, but was by no means the difference maker. You act like if he doesn't play the wings are going to lose those first ten games. He was secondary support at best. That, of all things, can be gambled with for the betterment of the team as a whole...

Edited by number9

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Some people are saying andersson is better than disney.com. That is nonsense. Andersson can't shut down top lines and frustrate an entire team the way disney.com does, to me he is worth keeping on the fourth line just because he aggravates people. 4th liners shouldn't be expected to go out and score a bunch of goals. It's a checking line for a reason. He works hard, plays gritty and throws people off their game.

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Some people are saying andersson is better than disney.com. That is nonsense. Andersson can't shut down top lines and frustrate an entire team the way disney.com does, to me he is worth keeping on the fourth line just because he aggravates people. 4th liners shouldn't be expected to go out and score a bunch of goals. It's a checking line for a reason. He works hard, plays gritty and throws people off their game.

I honestly think he does none of that. He plays positional D with very little grittiness. He's more expendable than Cleary IMO. the fact that he's young is the only reason I feel like keeping him around at this point.

krsmith17 likes this

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Some people are saying andersson is better than disney.com. That is nonsense. Andersson can't shut down top lines and frustrate an entire team the way disney.com does, to me he is worth keeping on the fourth line just because he aggravates people. 4th liners shouldn't be expected to go out and score a bunch of goals. It's a checking line for a reason. He works hard, plays gritty and throws people off their game.

Glendening is very overrated as a shutdown defender. Do you really want him out there against the top lines in the East? We have an abundance of capable two-way centers to perform that role, who also can contribute offensively as well. Glendening can stay on the 4th line if needed, but Babcock relied on him way too much down the stretch last season. You can't match Glendening every time with Malkin, Crosby or Bergeron because then Glendening ends up playing 15 minutes. That isn't gonna win the Red Wings many games.

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Glendening is very overrated as a shutdown defender. Do you really want him out there against the top lines in the East? We have an abundance of capable two-way centers to perform that role, who also can contribute offensively as well. Glendening can stay on the 4th line if needed, but Babcock relied on him way too much down the stretch last season. You can't match Glendening every time with Malkin, Crosby or Bergeron because then Glendening ends up playing 15 minutes. That isn't gonna win the Red Wings many games.

It does free up Zetterberg and Datsyuk. That's what Glendening's value is. We've often had top guys on defensive assignments and it means they're not creating offense. If we can trust Glendening with top guys then he won't be on every time Malkin's on, but he allows us to get our top guys with better matchups.

That said, I really didn't notice Glendening much last year. That's due in part to his role, but he'll have to develop other parts of his game to be really effective.

wings4thecup06 and krsmith17 like this

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I know this will seem like a totally crazy concept but here goes. If we've got so many centers that we can't find spots for them all...and one as good as Helm has to be moved to the wing...couldn't we have traded one of them in a package for a natural winger? Isn't that how other teams do it? Trade the thing you have in abundance for the thing you don't have much of?

We only have an abundance right now. Once the season actually starts most of our injury prone players are center....so the depth will be good.

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We only have an abundance right now. Once the season actually starts most of our injury prone players are center....so the depth will be good.

And it gives a chance to fully evaluate whats there when the team is healthy from the start, so management can work out who is expendable

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Glendening just isn't that good. He's Matt Ellis with better wheels. He's fine as a reserve, but that's about it. I'd rather balance the ice time between the lines more and have a third scoring line and a checking line playing about the same minutes as the game dictates.

Helm can handle a role on a scoring line but I think he's better as a check line center.

Andersson has some skill, but he's too slow and has zero grit.

Callahan has never scores at any level until last year. Take into his low assist numbers and that screams fluke season. I think he can be a decent 4th liner, but you don't build a the trying to keep those guys.

Ferraro has Drew Miller upside, if he ever even gets that good. Losing him will not hurt at all.

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That's exactly why we need guys like Glendening and Callahan on the 4th line, that's exactly what they bring to the team; grit (mental and physical toughness). No, Glendening is never going to put up big numbers, and he isn't expected to. He's relied upon to shut down the other teams top lines, and he does that quite well in my opinion. I'd like to see Ferraro get a shot as well but I just don't see him making the cut. I would waive Andersson before anyone else on the roster, including Glendening, Callahan, Ferraro and Cleary. Andersson brings absolutely nothing to the team in my opinion.

wings4thecup06 likes this

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That's exactly why we need guys like Glendening and Callahan on the 4th line, that's exactly what they bring to the team; grit (mental and physical toughness). No, Glendening is never going to put up big numbers, and he isn't expected to. He's relied upon to shut down the other teams top lines, and he does that quite well in my opinion. I'd like to see Ferraro get a shot as well but I just don't see him making the cut. I would waive Andersson before anyone else on the roster, including Glendening, Callahan, Ferraro and Cleary. Andersson brings absolutely nothing to the team in my opinion.

Really? So when we play Pittsburgh we counter Crosby with glendening and not datsyuk? LOL.

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Absolutely. How do some of you not remember the assignments Glendening was given last season. As a rookie he matched up and was able to shut down the likes of the Crosby line and Bergeron line. He is a great shut down guy and every team needs these guys on their 4th line.

number9 and T.Low like this

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Absolutely. How do some of you not remember the assignments Glendening was given last season. As a rookie he matched up and was able to shut down the likes of the Crosby line and Bergeron line. He is a great shut down guy and every team needs these guys on their 4th line.

I agree with you, yet again.

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