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Andy Pred 48

Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

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I think this where the fundamental divide is. I don't think we have to do either extreme.

That doesn't mean I'm pro-Cleary/Quincey or anti-trade but it does mean I don't think we should seriously compromise our future.

ie. Trading Mantha, Sproul, Nyquist, AA/ Signing mid-range UFAs to overpaid long-term deals. (I'm not referencing Niskanen)

SOW this isn't a shot at you, but there does seem to be a feeling that trading a young prospect only means we are going to get a 34 year old guy with 1 or 2 years left to play. Look at the 3 big F that got moved so far this off season: Kesler, Neal, and Spezza. None of those deals broke the banks of the teams that picked them up. Trueth be told, we could have made all 3 of those deals, been a much better team, and still had some young guys left over. Not to mention we had the cap space for it. While prospects are nice and all, most never pan out. That is true and will always be true. Same was true with the Nash deal, not getting O'reilly, and Ryan. That is 6 big time F that have been moved or available lately that we could have had, failed to get, all but 1 are under 30. Meanwhile we have been 15th or so in scoring the last 2 years, with most of our prospects burried in the minors.

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The way I see it, Holland is reluctant to give the younger players a chance at all. He leaves that as the last possible resort in most cases. If the Wings hadn't gone through all the injuries in 2012/13, we would not have seen Tatar, Nyquist, or Andersson at all. It would have been Helm, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson. Lashoff wasn't in the plans, but they had to call him up and use him a lot. The Wings didn't seem to have any plans on using DeKeyser when they signed him, he was set to be GR-bound after a few days, but an opening presented itself and he had practiced well. In 13/14, we would not have seen Sheahan, Jurco, or Glendening at all, Nyquist may have been buried in the minors all season, and Tatar, Andersson, DeKeyser, and Lashoff wouldn't have had their previous experience. This summer, Almquist is leaving for the KHL without having a chance to show whether he is or isn't capable of playing in the NHL. Callahan and Ferraro are out of waiver exemptions and have 1 and 4 NHL games, respectively, on their resumes.

Lately, I think Holland's moves are the comfortable ones for him, not the "right" moves. I'll skip the misery of the 2012 off-season, but that wasn't his only shortcoming. He gave up a 2nd-round pick, a valued prospect, and a depth forward in exchange for Legwand, who turned out to be a rental... yes, they needed a center for a few games, but he ended up being a 4th-line winger as soon as those centers started to come back. was it worth both the pick and the prospect? That trade helped keep the playoff streak alive, so maybe it was worth it financially and for pride, but it gives them two less pieces with which to build. Re-signing Bertuzzi back when he did, in February 2012, was poorly timed IMO, but again, it's someone Holland was comfortable with. Keeping Cleary around last year, when he'd been awful for 2 seasons and the club had no roster or payroll space to do so, was a bad move... and now they're talking about ANOTHER contract? Keeping Quincey was a knee-jerk reaction to failing on every free agent they talked to. Yes, it "buys time" for either Holland to make another move (he won't) or for the prospect D to develop a little more, but unless there's a corresponding move where Kindl is shipped out of town, it's not a good deal.

I don't think there will be an upswing this year. A healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg should help, but if you look at it, last year, with both in the lineup earlier in the year, the Wings weren't in a playoff position. It's after Datsyuk went out that they started to make their push, and solidified that position with Zetterberg out also. They did that on the shoulders of a motivated Franzen (after someone pissed him off with a cheapshot) and the young guys that Holland didn't want in Detroit.

Unless a move, or moves, are made later in the summer, we're looking at almost exactly the same roster that lost to Boston in 5 games, struggled to score, and couldn't handle the better opponent. There are no additions, only subtractions--Legwand, Bertuzzi, and possibly Alfredsson and Cleary. How is that inspiring at all?

Sometimes different is all it takes. New voice, fresh blood, different look.

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results? That's the definition of insanity.

Josh, you are spot on. All those young players that Holland is so reluctant to trade, he didn't want in detroit. He was FORCED to call them up and play them because all of his UFA signing and guys he gave long tern deals to got hurt.

So many want to blame the training staff for our injuries, why not to guy that brought in a bunch of injury prone players? How long has Betr had a bad back? hank? Will Helm ever play more than 70 games again? Sammy the walking MASH ward, etc...... Add in the age of these guys, no wonder why we have 3 seasons in a row filled with injuries. Who put together this roster?

I have said it for 2 years, either build a team for one or 2 more serious runs at the Cup for D and Z, or get rid of the old crap and rebuild. We are doing neither. Which would be more exciting right now? making the PO's and losing in the 1st round, or drafting McDavid? Which would be better for the 2020 season? It isn't possible to do both.....

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as the days go on, it is apparent that there will be no signings or trades made...unless you count our own UFA/RFA's that are there...I know teams attempt to rape Detroit in trades, but there are still outside UFA's out there that will help make this team better, both at the forward and defense position. #firekenholland


RICH, I agree. I would hate to see Dats or Z traded, but if #firekenholland isn't going to build a Staley Cup team that will win at least once in the next 3 years, then go for an entire rebuild. Pav and Z could bring you a windfall of young core players or high, HIGH draft picks....right now, this team will not even sniff the Cup and barely make the playoffs the next 3 years...

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You realize that most of those 1st round picks were traded before the cap era right? What does moves made in the precap era have to do with how the team is being built now? Short answer: nothing.

You said he "never" did anything to build for an immediate run and sacrifice the future. He did. Yes, it was a while ago, before the Cap. But that's not "never".

*edit-- 4 of 9 first rounders traded since 2006.

Edited by joshy207

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I think this where the fundamental divide is. I don't think we have to do either extreme.

That doesn't mean I'm pro-Cleary/Quincey or anti-trade but it does mean I don't think we should seriously compromise our future.

ie. Trading Mantha, Sproul, Nyquist, AA/ Signing mid-range UFAs to overpaid long-term deals. (I'm not referencing Niskanen)

I believe that as long as he doesn't move in either direction, the team will continue to be stuck in neutral, fighting just to make the playoffs each year.

I don't want him to compromise the future either, I don't think it's worth it. Neither is hanging on to the past.

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I still think he should try for danny heatley nothing wrong with him on a good price than trade for bfygulin an see where that goes

Z Dats Heat

franzen Weiss goose

tats shehan jurco

miller glendening abby

Edited by sjr2012

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My god, this place has gotten so bad that we are talking about trading Z and D now?

:no:

I hear you there is not a player on this planet I would trade those two for not 1 in the long run I want to say that z and d where wings for life never once giving up on the potential for our young core to spring to life and show a lot of the naysayers that we can possibly do wonders with them

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SOW this isn't a shot at you, but there does seem to be a feeling that trading a young prospect only means we are going to get a 34 year old guy with 1 or 2 years left to play. Look at the 3 big F that got moved so far this off season: Kesler, Neal, and Spezza. None of those deals broke the banks of the teams that picked them up. Trueth be told, we could have made all 3 of those deals, been a much better team, and still had some young guys left over. Not to mention we had the cap space for it. While prospects are nice and all, most never pan out. That is true and will always be true. Same was true with the Nash deal, not getting O'reilly, and Ryan. That is 6 big time F that have been moved or available lately that we could have had, failed to get, all but 1 are under 30. Meanwhile we have been 15th or so in scoring the last 2 years, with most of our prospects burried in the minors.

I didn't say don't trade our youth. I said don't trade those specific players. In fact I made a point of saying I'm not anti-trade.

I'd be more than open to trading a combination of a high draft pick and one or two of Tatar, Pulkinnen, Backman, Ouellet for the right piece.

But it better be a damn good piece...

I believe that as long as he doesn't move in either direction, the team will continue to be stuck in neutral, fighting just to make the playoffs each year.

I don't want him to compromise the future either, I don't think it's worth it. Neither is hanging on to the past.

I see it as a slow build and "stocking of the shelves" and not a status of neutral. We're building WHILE staying competitive and that's tougher than it sounds.

We currently have the 3rd highest ranked group of prospects in the entire league AND we've got a playoff team. Only Anaheim, Chicago and Tampa Bay also have that Potential/Current talent mix.

No we're not a "legitimate contender" but with the right move or two and our young core furthering their development, we could see a serious run soon. Yes I believe that.

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My God....No one is saying trade Pav or Z just for the hell of it. But Holland has two directions to go, either spend the cap in the next three years and win another Cup with these two guys by acquiring (and outbidding other teams) the key players (via UFA or trade) in order to win now, before Pav retires and Z is a shriveled old man playing the last few years of his contract.

-OR-

Go full youth and BUILD a core that is going to win 4-6 Cups in the next 20 years.

Unfortunately he is choosing to sit and stay stagnant year after year, lowballing UFA's, refusing to better his team by trading a kid or two or even taking away from his current roster (Helm, Smith, Franzen, et al.) and just barely making the playoffs and letting Pav and Z sit and rot for the remainder of their All Star careers without even remote chance to win the Cup.

My point wasn't that we need to trade them, my point was, if you are not going to trade a kid away (especially after getting burned with Jarnkrok) then instead of letting these guys rot, make a choice, either make those deals or UFA offers to bring a Cup in the next 3 years or make a bold move to trade away one of them and get some REAL youth and core experience in a full rebuild.

I am not suggesting trading them, I am all for keeping them and acquiring the pieces to win a Cup. But Holland just seems set on not winning within the next 5-7 years along with wasting away your Al-Star players by signing filler scrub players (ie. Gustavsson, Cleary, Quincey, Alfredsson, undrafted projects...) The point was either win now, or build a core and win the next 20 years. You cannot have it both ways, because the useless filler scrubs are taking valuable roster spots away. If he wants to keep his top players and build a future on the tails of their careers, that is fine, but he cannot be signing scrub fill ins. He should be bringing the kids up NOW. Even more so than the ones that are here. But if he wants to win now, he needs to make hard decision deals and trade away some assets and kids to win NOW, before its too late for his stars.

So, the point was, if he is going to waste away the last few years of his stars and not trade away anymore kids, then he could just go FULL rebuild mode and deal away his star(s) and bring in some serious return to get ahead of the rebuild process.

Just a question, and a serious one at that. If Shea Weber or Evgeni Malkin or Steven Stampkos were on the table and the asking price was Zetterberg, would you scoff at it or give it a serious thought?

I have no issue keeping Z, obviously, but Holland has no intention of making the moves needed to win another Cup while Pav is still here and Z is still a top 10 player, nor is he providing the roster spots to promote his kids to build a core while Pav and Z are still here...he is afraid to go in either direction, so he kicks tires...

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Or he could build a solid young core capable of winning Stanley Cups in the future while still making the playoffs and being competitive every year. Which sounds a lot harder than either of your extremes. Which he's currently and has been doing for the last few years.

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My God....No one is saying trade Pav or Z just for the hell of it. But Holland has two directions to go, either spend the cap in the next three years and win another Cup with these two guys by acquiring (and outbidding other teams) the key players (via UFA or trade) in order to win now, before Pav retires and Z is a shriveled old man playing the last few years of his contract.

-OR-

Go full youth and BUILD a core that is going to win 4-6 Cups in the next 20 years.

Unfortunately he is choosing to sit and stay stagnant year after year, lowballing UFA's, refusing to better his team by trading a kid or two or even taking away from his current roster (Helm, Smith, Franzen, et al.) and just barely making the playoffs and letting Pav and Z sit and rot for the remainder of their All Star careers without even remote chance to win the Cup.

My point wasn't that we need to trade them, my point was, if you are not going to trade a kid away (especially after getting burned with Jarnkrok) then instead of letting these guys rot, make a choice, either make those deals or UFA offers to bring a Cup in the next 3 years or make a bold move to trade away one of them and get some REAL youth and core experience in a full rebuild.

I am not suggesting trading them, I am all for keeping them and acquiring the pieces to win a Cup. But Holland just seems set on not winning within the next 5-7 years along with wasting away your Al-Star players by signing filler scrub players (ie. Gustavsson, Cleary, Quincey, Alfredsson, undrafted projects...) The point was either win now, or build a core and win the next 20 years. You cannot have it both ways, because the useless filler scrubs are taking valuable roster spots away. If he wants to keep his top players and build a future on the tails of their careers, that is fine, but he cannot be signing scrub fill ins. He should be bringing the kids up NOW. Even more so than the ones that are here. But if he wants to win now, he needs to make hard decision deals and trade away some assets and kids to win NOW, before its too late for his stars.

So, the point was, if he is going to waste away the last few years of his stars and not trade away anymore kids, then he could just go FULL rebuild mode and deal away his star(s) and bring in some serious return to get ahead of the rebuild process.

Just a question, and a serious one at that. If Shea Weber or Evgeni Malkin or Steven Stampkos were on the table and the asking price was Zetterberg, would you scoff at it or give it a serious thought?

I have no issue keeping Z, obviously, but Holland has no intention of making the moves needed to win another Cup while Pav is still here and Z is still a top 10 player, nor is he providing the roster spots to promote his kids to build a core while Pav and Z are still here...he is afraid to go in either direction, so he kicks tires...

You mean like the "shriveled old man" that played on one leg?

Also, be realistic Malkin and Stamkos would never be on the table for Zetterberg. Your talking about two of the top 5 players in the world, that are over 5 years younger then Zetterberg.

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They were just examples, and I am glad folks agree that there are players in the league that have more value than Zetterberg. And know that I am not for trading Pav or Z unless it is for the likes of a player of their stature...I am not about just throwing them away for a rebuild, they'd have to bring in a new nucleus to our core.

Like I said, I am not saying trade them, I'd like to win it again with them, but the way Holland has been doing things the last few years, it ain't happening...

and I mean, the shriveled old man he is slowly going to turn into as his contracts expires...I give him full credit and appreciation for what he does and has done, but once Pav goes, Z becomes that much less effective and has the years come off his contract, he will start to turn old and not very effective at all.

Edited by LeftWinger

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SOW this isn't a shot at you, but there does seem to be a feeling that trading a young prospect only means we are going to get a 34 year old guy with 1 or 2 years left to play. Look at the 3 big F that got moved so far this off season: Kesler, Neal, and Spezza. None of those deals broke the banks of the teams that picked them up. Trueth be told, we could have made all 3 of those deals, been a much better team, and still had some young guys left over. Not to mention we had the cap space for it. While prospects are nice and all, most never pan out. That is true and will always be true. Same was true with the Nash deal, not getting O'reilly, and Ryan. That is 6 big time F that have been moved or available lately that we could have had, failed to get, all but 1 are under 30. Meanwhile we have been 15th or so in scoring the last 2 years, with most of our prospects burried in the minors.

Spezza wasn't a need, Kessler wanted either Anaheim or Chicago, and the Pens shipped Neal out west.

You said he "never" did anything to build for an immediate run and sacrifice the future. He did. Yes, it was a while ago, before the Cap. But that's not "never".

*edit-- 4 of 9 first rounders traded since 2006.

So Holland trading down first rounders because the player he wants is still available is hurting the teams future? I'd hardly call trading a late 1st for 2 second rounders sacrificing the future. Also, precap era trading firsts wasn't a big deal. They brought in players they wanted and had the money to keep them. Not to mention they were able to outspend almost any other team in free agency. Late first round picks were fairly meaningless for this franchise back then. You also can't consider trading a late first rounder for 2 picks hurting the franchise either.

The ONLY first round pick traded you can make any possible case for is the Quincey trade. That is one pick. One pick will not hurt this team in the long run.

Has he made moves for an immediate run? Yes. Has he ever hurt the future of the franchise by doing so? No.

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...although it seems now he isn't too concerned about making moves for an immediate run. But he also is NOT endangering our future. I like our kids and our top 25 prospects.

I definitely don't think it is the worst thing in the world to see what this roster can do with the kids having spots right out of camp. Getting that top 4 puck moving dman is the only glaring need, where as the rest can definitely can be gauged a few months into the season. If the team is competing and winning, the time would definitely then be right to put some of those assets to use to fill any holes in the lineup. As long as the moves make sense. But the kids have to take that next step in their development for things to get there. They got to show that they can produce consistently, and still make an impact against the best teams in the league.

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I didn't say don't trade our youth. I said don't trade those specific players. In fact I made a point of saying I'm not anti-trade.

I'd be more than open to trading a combination of a high draft pick and one or two of Tatar, Pulkinnen, Backman, Ouellet for the right piece.

But it better be a damn good piece...

I see it as a slow build and "stocking of the shelves" and not a status of neutral. We're building WHILE staying competitive and that's tougher than it sounds.

We currently have the 3rd highest ranked group of prospects in the entire league AND we've got a playoff team. Only Anaheim, Chicago and Tampa Bay also have that Potential/Current talent mix.

No we're not a "legitimate contender" but with the right move or two and our young core furthering their development, we could see a serious run soon. Yes I believe that.

I don't disagree. I think it might be 2 or 3 moves, but that includes subtraction. My issue is that Holland doesn't seem to have the minerals to make those moves anymore.

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Spezza wasn't a need, Kessler wanted either Anaheim or Chicago, and the Pens shipped Neal out west.

So Holland trading down first rounders because the player he wants is still available is hurting the teams future? I'd hardly call trading a late 1st for 2 second rounders sacrificing the future. Also, precap era trading firsts wasn't a big deal. They brought in players they wanted and had the money to keep them. Not to mention they were able to outspend almost any other team in free agency. Late first round picks were fairly meaningless for this franchise back then. You also can't consider trading a late first rounder for 2 picks hurting the franchise either.

The ONLY first round pick traded you can make any possible case for is the Quincey trade. That is one pick. One pick will not hurt this team in the long run.

Has he made moves for an immediate run? Yes. Has he ever hurt the future of the franchise by doing so? No.

That's true, I couldn't remember how many times he had traded down. And to be honest, I don't have a problem with trading #24 for #35 and #48. 24 and 35 are pretty much a wash anyway. Quincey is the one that's backfired. My issue is that Holland seems afraid to try to make more moves that could improve the team... sometimes standing pat doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help, either. No risk, no reward. Perhaps he looks back to the Oates trade or the big Oilers trade (Graves, Carson, etc.) where the Wings got burned and doesn't want to be that GM... I don't know.

Or he could build a solid young core capable of winning Stanley Cups in the future while still making the playoffs and being competitive every year. Which sounds a lot harder than either of your extremes. Which he's currently and has been doing for the last few years.

If it were up to Holland completely, most of the "solid young core" would still be in Grand Rapids.

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Oates trade was horrendous, but he shouldn't have been bitching about Steve Yzerman...

Graves for Carson was our advantage at the time. Carson just scored 49 goals where he hated being. The idea was if he scored 49 there, just imagine what he could do if he went someone he wanted to be. Unfortunately for Jimmy, there was a kid names Fedorov coming in that took his #2 center spot. All went well though, we traded Jimmy back to LA for Coffey and then Coffey got us Shanny.

I think more so Holland is just afraid anything will backfire. Although when he grows a set, he does pretty good...Hasek, Schneider, Staurt, even when he acquired Chelios, Ranford, Samuelsson and Clark back in the day. Who'd a thought Chelios would stay here 10 years as a player? There were just too many trades that didn't work out, UFA signings and wrong UFA choices as well. He figures if he stays pat, then it can't get any worse, if he makes a deal, it might blow up in his face. He is afraid to fail. That is his problem and that is hurting this team...

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Oates trade was horrendous, but he shouldn't have been bitching about Steve Yzerman...

Graves for Carson was our advantage at the time. Carson just scored 49 goals where he hated being. The idea was if he scored 49 there, just imagine what he could do if he went someone he wanted to be. Unfortunately for Jimmy, there was a kid names Fedorov coming in that took his #2 center spot. All went well though, we traded Jimmy back to LA for Coffey and then Coffey got us Shanny.

I think more so Holland is just afraid anything will backfire. Although when he grows a set, he does pretty good...Hasek, Schneider, Staurt, even when he acquired Chelios, Ranford, Samuelsson and Clark back in the day. Who'd a thought Chelios would stay here 10 years as a player? There were just too many trades that didn't work out, UFA signings and wrong UFA choices as well. He figures if he stays pat, then it can't get any worse, if he makes a deal, it might blow up in his face. He is afraid to fail. That is his problem and that is hurting this team...

I was pumped when we got Carson, I thought he was going to be a stud here. He didn't perform badly, just not at the levels he did in LA and Edmonton... I forgot we got Coffey for him!

I completely agree with your last paragraph. He is afraid to move "assets"... I saw an interview with him on TV where he talked about that very thing. He said (paraphrased) that players were assets and you hang on to them, why would you move them? I was a little dumbfounded... Wayne Friggin' Gretzky has been traded! Twice!! You can move anybody you want! The last time Holland has traded what I consider a "roster regular" (top 8 F, top 4 D, starting G) was... 2001. Slava Kozlov. For Hasek, who would have been a UFA the very next day. I never really understood that deal. Why not wait, sign him, and keep Kozlov? Or move him for someone else? Also, I don't count Brad Stuart in that equation, since he was days away from being a UFA himself, and it was clear he was going back go Cali. (Side note... where was Holland when Stuart got traded to Colorado the other day??)

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I don't see the Quincey trade as "backfiring"....I know he's a favorite whipping boy around here, but like him or not...we've had two years of top six defense play for the #19 draft pick. It would typically take several years to get the player you pick at 19 to give you two years of NHL play

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That's true, I couldn't remember how many times he had traded down. And to be honest, I don't have a problem with trading #24 for #35 and #48. 24 and 35 are pretty much a wash anyway. Quincey is the one that's backfired. My issue is that Holland seems afraid to try to make more moves that could improve the team... sometimes standing pat doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help, either. No risk, no reward. Perhaps he looks back to the Oates trade or the big Oilers trade (Graves, Carson, etc.) where the Wings got burned and doesn't want to be that GM... I don't know.

If it were up to Holland completely, most of the "solid young core" would still be in Grand Rapids.

Moves will be made when the time is right. It is the right move to let the kids show what they can do first. The team has a nice mix of youth and vets right now as it is, so the team will be fine. When they are on the cusp of being able to make a run, moves will happen.

Not much progress seems to have happened when looking at the teams stats, but when you look at the roster, they have come such a long way. The team was able to reload quickly when the cap era began, as the defense was still led by #5. This reload is taking much longer, as the bulk of the defense right now is very young. But they'll get there. I said it many times before, but I'd bet money this season is when we start to see the upswing.

I was pumped when we got Carson, I thought he was going to be a stud here. He didn't perform badly, just not at the levels he did in LA and Edmonton... I forgot we got Coffey for him!

I completely agree with your last paragraph. He is afraid to move "assets"... I saw an interview with him on TV where he talked about that very thing. He said (paraphrased) that players were assets and you hang on to them, why would you move them? I was a little dumbfounded... Wayne Friggin' Gretzky has been traded! Twice!! You can move anybody you want! The last time Holland has traded what I consider a "roster regular" (top 8 F, top 4 D, starting G) was... 2001. Slava Kozlov. For Hasek, who would have been a UFA the very next day. I never really understood that deal. Why not wait, sign him, and keep Kozlov? Or move him for someone else? Also, I don't count Brad Stuart in that equation, since he was days away from being a UFA himself, and it was clear he was going back go Cali. (Side note... where was Holland when Stuart got traded to Colorado the other day??)

That was just bad, unlucky timing. Holland had high hopes of landing one of the UFA's, and by then Stuart was already moved. But them's the breaks

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