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Andy Pred 48

Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

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Harold! Good point...I hate the #kfq signing, but if Kindl gets dealt, we are at least going to get someone new that HAS to be better than Kindl. Maybe #firekenholland signs Gleason or Morris and lets everyone duke it out at training camp for the spots, then tries (and fails) to trade the losers and ends up just waiving them...

If we get stuck with #kfq and dump Kindl, I will feel a little less hatred, but all in all, I am hugely disappointed in our off season thus far...not including the draft that is. I am still majorly mad at #firekenholland for turning Detroit into a place nobody puts on their list anymore for a destination. His years of "no one makes more than Lidstrom" and "you should be expected to sign here for less because we are Detroit..." and turned the new generation of player away from Detroit. You got to pay and you got to show you have to balls to make the moves to win. Maybe 5 years from now, our new "core" will be all-stars just like the 90's "core" and we will once again, be a sought after organization to play for.

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The good news is that Babcock doesn't care how much you get paid. If Quincey sucks, he's getting bottom pairing minutes. Or benched. As long as we have another option.

If Petry is a slightly better Smith, and is right handed, then he's better than Kindl. And that improves our team.

And Dabura's point about not needing a terrific defender is a point I and others have been making for a while. We're good enough defensively with the removal of Kindl and Quincey (which sadly didn't happen) but our entire game suffers as a team from not being able to get the puck out. A guy who can do that would be great, especially if paired with a solid defender like Ericsson or DeKeyser. Balance is key.

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Kronwall Ericsson

DeKeyser Quincey

Smith Kindl

Lashoff

Woof.

Honestly, let's say they move Kindl for a pick, then bring up one of the kids. I wouldn't want one of those defensive prospects to be the 7th guy, but I would like them to swap into that #6 spot. I really think the defense should be more about balance, and not pairings based on "skill" or cap hit. As much as I hate the Quincey signing, it wouldn't be a total loss if we started the year with something along the lines of:

Kronwall-Smith

DeKeyser-Quincey

Ericsson-Sproul/Marchenko

Lashoff

I think it's more about balance than anything. I know some would see Ericsson on the "3rd pairing" as a demotion, but really the minutes played are getting closer and closer for various defense cores. In my estimation, these pairings would be a better indicator of Smith's upside, and give those younger prospects a stable partner in Ericsson.

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I've seen Datsyuk's rookie highlight reel a bunch of times, and after watching Tatar's, I will be royally pissed if they trade him. The reels are very similar: a bit worse defensively, same shifty moves, a harder shot, both great in corners, and plays with a lot of heart. He's no "soft euro".

wings4thecup06 likes this

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Honestly, let's say they move Kindl for a pick, then bring up one of the kids. I wouldn't want one of those defensive prospects to be the 7th guy, but I would like them to swap into that #6 spot. I really think the defense should be more about balance, and not pairings based on "skill" or cap hit. As much as I hate the Quincey signing, it wouldn't be a total loss if we started the year with something along the lines of:

Kronwall-Smith

DeKeyser-Quincey

Ericsson-Sproul/Marchenko

Lashoff

I think it's more about balance than anything. I know some would see Ericsson on the "3rd pairing" as a demotion, but really the minutes played are getting closer and closer for various defense cores. In my estimation, these pairings would be a better indicator of Smith's upside, and give those younger prospects a stable partner in Ericsson.

When was the last time Holland moved a roster player that didn't demand to be moved?

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When was the last time Holland moved a roster player that didn't demand to be moved?

Leino? Commodore? Huskins?

I may be mistaken on Leino, but I thought that was because he wasn't meeting expectations and they wanted to give him a shot in Philly.

In the case of the latter two, it was to make room for younger guys. Huskins was moved to make room for DeKeyser. Ironically, I remember Commodore being moved to make room for Kindl and Smith.

Edited by Jesusberg

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Another huge problem with the Quincey signing is that it sets a terrible precedent for when we need to resign our other defenders. No one who thinks they are a better player than Q will take less money than he has and almost everyone is better than him :P

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Honestly, let's say they move Kindl for a pick, then bring up one of the kids. I wouldn't want one of those defensive prospects to be the 7th guy, but I would like them to swap into that #6 spot. I really think the defense should be more about balance, and not pairings based on "skill" or cap hit. As much as I hate the Quincey signing, it wouldn't be a total loss if we started the year with something along the lines of:

Kronwall-Smith

DeKeyser-Quincey

Ericsson-Sproul/Marchenko

Lashoff

I think it's more about balance than anything. I know some would see Ericsson on the "3rd pairing" as a demotion, but really the minutes played are getting closer and closer for various defense cores. In my estimation, these pairings would be a better indicator of Smith's upside, and give those younger prospects a stable partner in Ericsson.

Yeah, I think Kindl should be moved and the kids should get to fight over that 6D spot, with the understanding that each of them will likely get a look in that role at some point in the season and that the inevitable injuries could blow things wide open. I might even try Marchenko with Kronwall. I like Smith with Kronwall, but we're basing that on a small sample size. Can Smith go up against the opposition's best every night, all season long? (Not that I'm sure Marchenko can. Just an idea.)

Ideally, Ericsson is on the second or third pairing. That's just the kind of defenseman he is. I do like his size for our top four, though, and his $4.25M cap hit would, at some point, have the kids thinking, "Well s***, if being a steady #5 can get me that much..."

I'm not a fan of Green but you make a convincing argument. Injuries would be my main concern with him, especially after last season.

As much grief as Rafalski got for his defense the last couple years his puck movement, especially his stretch pass, was 2nd only to Lidstrom for keeping things moving forward. A couple long bomb passes from Rafalski would keep the forecheckers honest.

Even with Green's defensive shortcomings, maybe a real puckmover can help keep the Wings from getting pinned in their own end so often.

BoG7csAIcAA3SWP.jpg

That's Dave Tippett, but it could just as easily be Mike Babcock or Darryl Sutter. It's the new school, popularized by the Wings teams of '08 and '09 and, more recently, the Kings. When someone asks Darryl Sutter what it is about his team that makes them so good defensively, and he deadpans that it's easy when your team is never forced to defend, he's not joking. And he's right. Erik Karlsson isn't a stud in his end, but there's more to being a defenseman than defending. P.K. Subban isn't a stud in his end, but there's more to being a defenseman than defending. Datsyuk isn't a 50-goal scorer, but there's more to being an elite 1C than scoring goals.

When our top three was Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, we didn't spend time in our end and therefore never had to defend. And it wasn't just that we'd "get the puck out." The second we regained possession (i.e. pretty much any time we had the puck, anywhere on the ice), we were thinking attack. We moved northward with poise and purpose and precision and propulsive, predatory intent. It wasn't "We escaped from our zone!" It was "Here comes the boom." Our breakouts, our rushes, our transition game - everything was about being on the offensive.

That was the foundation of our game. That was the key to our dominance. That was Red Wings hockey. We lost it, we haven't meaningfully addressed the loss, and now, accordingly, we're losers. Mike Green, while maybe not ideal, would be a step in the right direction. He'd give us something we don't have and sorely need. Saying he can't play defense is missing the point. Saying Kindl can move the puck is missing the point. Saying we have some promising kids who might be top-four material in a few years is missing the point. We have three years left with Datsyuk. What's keeping us from giving him a legitimate shot at another Cup is the fact that our defense doesn't generate any offense, doesn't move the puck especially well at all.

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BoG7csAIcAA3SWP.jpg

That's Dave Tippett, but it could just as easily be Mike Babcock or Darryl Sutter. It's the new school, popularized by the Wings teams of '08 and '09 and, more recently, the Kings. When someone asks Darryl Sutter what it is about his team that makes them so good defensively, and he deadpans that it's easy when your team is never forced to defend, he's not joking. And he's right. Erik Karlsson isn't a stud in his end, but there's more to being a defenseman than defending. P.K. Subban isn't a stud in his end, but there's more to being a defenseman than defending. Datsyuk isn't a 50-goal scorer, but there's more to being an elite 1C than scoring goals.

When our top three was Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, we didn't spend time in our end and therefore never had to defend. And it wasn't just that we'd "get the puck out." The second we regained possession (i.e. pretty much any time we had the puck, anywhere on the ice), we were thinking attack. We moved northward with poise and purpose and precision and propulsive, predatory intent. It wasn't "We escaped from our zone!" It was "Here comes the boom." Our breakouts, our rushes, our transition game - everything was about being on the offensive.

That was the foundation of our game. That was the key to our dominance. That was Red Wings hockey. We lost it, we haven't meaningfully addressed the loss, and now, accordingly, we're losers. Mike Green, while maybe not ideal, would be a step in the right direction. He'd give us something we don't have and sorely need. Saying he can't play defense is missing the point. Saying Kindl can move the puck is missing the point. Saying we have some promising kids who might be top-four material in a few years is missing the point. We have three years left with Datsyuk. What's keeping us from giving him a legitimate shot at another Cup is the fact that our defense doesn't generate any offense, doesn't move the puck especially well at all.

I completely agree. If we can construct a D corps that is at least okay defensively but very offensively skilled I think we have the forwards to compliment them defensively and put the puck in the net. If we can start scoring at a decent clip again it will take pressure off of Howard and we won't be giving up so many shots if we move the puck well and stop turning the puck over in our zone. We have just been turning the puck over so much or just clearing the zone and giving possession back that we can't possibly survive out there.

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start looking at RFA

nashville and toronto have some nice ones

hell id even take delzotto just for a change

holland did this to himself. going to have to give up something bigger to get something big. or settle for mediocre

Edited by brett

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Man. Some of you are hardcore.

After the *****-slapping Holland handed us yesterday, you’re still here discussing possible trades.

I can think I can safely say this with 100% certainly and sincerity:

I.respect.U.

if we lose in the first round again we will riot the streets Vancouver style. your move holland.

Edited by martinezsvsu
Dabura likes this

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Man. Some of you are hardcore.

After the *****-slapping Holland handed us yesterday, you’re still here discussing possible trades.

I can think I can safely say this with 100% certainly and sincerity:

I.respect.U.

Of course we're here doing that!! What are we supposed to do... go root for the Caps because they got Niskanen or root for the Rangers because they got Boyle?

:lol: I still want this team to get better. Am I sure that Ken Holland is capable of it? Nope. Not at all. ...but a boy can dream!

You guys don't actually think Tatar is Datsyuk level just because he had a "better" rookie season, do you? Let's be realistic (and I'm one of the biggest Tatar boosters here). His aggression doesn't always overcome his small stature, he's easily kept out of the prime scoring areas, and once the league figured him out his offense disappeared. He's not great defensively and has a bit of an attitude that all spells "Babcock's Doghouse." If he's just going to be misused and abused like Hudler was, we might as well trade him to get some value. I'm not a big fan of Green's so I'm not specifically pushing for that trade. But Tatar is the most likely to move, I think, and has the most value to another team without hurting us too badly. Nyquist is fast, dynamic and creative. Jurco will hopefully be a big bodied power forward type, which are rare. Pulkinnen is a one-trick pony at this point and I doubt he has much value. We can't really part with any of our d-prospects unless we had to.

That's how I got the point of suggesting Tatar in a trade. Unless he somehow changes his game, he's going to be a tweener like Filppula and Hudler were. He might get top 6 playing time but I'm not sure how dynamic he'll be there now that the league has him figured out. If any of Tatar, Nyquist, or Jurco don't become a top six player, it's likeliest to be Tatar, I think.

Well, if this is indeed Babcock's last year in Detroit then he only has to stay out of the doghouse this season, huh?

I don't think we should include Tatar in any trade involving Mike Green. It should take far less to pluck Green from Washington with their cap situation.

They need to clear Green's cap hit to get additional help up front.

I'm not a fan of Green but you make a convincing argument. Injuries would be my main concern with him, especially after last season.

As much grief as Rafalski got for his defense the last couple years his puck movement, especially his stretch pass, was 2nd only to Lidstrom for keeping things moving forward. A couple long bomb passes from Rafalski would keep the forecheckers honest.

Even with Green's defensive shortcomings, maybe a real puckmover can help keep the Wings from getting pinned in their own end so often.

As disappointed as I am with that re-signing, I'd be more okay with it if Kindl is gone.

This. This. This. This. This.

I don't even care if he's left or right handed.

Honestly, let's say they move Kindl for a pick, then bring up one of the kids. I wouldn't want one of those defensive prospects to be the 7th guy, but I would like them to swap into that #6 spot. I really think the defense should be more about balance, and not pairings based on "skill" or cap hit. As much as I hate the Quincey signing, it wouldn't be a total loss if we started the year with something along the lines of:

Kronwall-Smith

DeKeyser-Quincey

Ericsson-Sproul/Marchenko

Lashoff

I think it's more about balance than anything. I know some would see Ericsson on the "3rd pairing" as a demotion, but really the minutes played are getting closer and closer for various defense cores. In my estimation, these pairings would be a better indicator of Smith's upside, and give those younger prospects a stable partner in Ericsson.

Agreed. Quincey played much better when he was with DeKeyser. Smith played much better when paired with Kronner. Ericsson should be stability factor for the 3rd pairing if we do run with those pairings at the start of the season.

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Sorry to dash everyone's hopes, but chances are, the roster now will be the roster on opening day.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140702/SPORTS0103/307020111/Red-Wings-GM-Ken-Holland-s-wish-list-Health-growth

"So, unless general manager Ken Holland decides to part with some young talent in a trade — which he says he won’t — the programs from the end of last season might just suffice for next season."

Lemme guess, he "kicked some tires" but "didn't like the prices" and he "likes our team"? BARF.

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Lemme guess, he "kicked some tires" but "didn't like the prices" and he "likes our team"? BARF.

OR, he didn't want to trade Mantha + Jurco + Sproul + 1st for Yandle or Green.

See, I can be over-zealous too.

LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

e_prime and wings4thecup06 like this

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If Weiss can put up 50 points as a 2C I will be a lot happier this year. Having 4 C's that are very talented for their position is a huge deal. Datsyuk is an elite 1C, Weiss (hopefully) is an average 2C, Sheahan is more than a 3C, and Helm is a mega elite 4C.

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Man. Some of you are hardcore.

After the *****-slapping Holland handed us yesterday, youre still here discussing possible trades.

I can think I can safely say this with 100% certainly and sincerity:

I.respect.U.

Somebody has to, and since Holland doesn't seem to want to, we might as well do it ourself. Edited by wings87

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OR, he didn't want to trade Mantha + Jurco + Sproul + 1st for Yandle or Green.

See, I can be over-zealous too.

LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Nobody on these forums wants that trade. What a lot of us DO want is for the manager to do something to actually improve the team. But, apparently, mediocrity and status-quo are perfectly acceptable in the bowels of the JLA.

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OR, he didn't want to trade Mantha + Jurco + Sproul + 1st for Yandle or Green.

See, I can be over-zealous too.

LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Nobody on these forums wants that trade. What a lot of us DO want is for the manager to do something to actually improve the team. But, apparently, mediocrity and status-quo are perfectly acceptable in the bowels of the JLA.

But if the options are trade a huge package for Handle or Myers, get a guy who is beat suited as a second pair guy, or nothing, then what should he do? Anything he does at that point will lead to Holland is a moron screaming

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Nobody on these forums wants that trade. What a lot of us DO want is for the manager to do something to actually improve the team. But, apparently, mediocrity and status-quo are perfectly acceptable in the bowels of the JLA.

I don't see mediocrity as being acceptable by management what so ever. They are doing as much building from within as they can, and the right moves will be made to fill holes on the roster when the players we do have show they can compete and are capable of making a run, while pieces will be added along the way when possible. It is just unfortunate that some UFA's said no. (which is the right way to do things in the cap era). We just don't have the luxury of lottery picks to stack the prospect pool, and because of that, developing players takes some time. And I get it, some fans aren't as patient as others. That's what 20 years of success will do to a fanbase. It becomes the expectation.

When it comes to UFA's, it isn't like they spend the last year of their contracts scouting teams to see where they should go. They just look at the big picture and see a Red Wings team that had consecutive years off a win/loss record getting worse. But when you look passed that, you see a lot of realgud, young talent that keep improving and are gradually taking on bigger roles on the team. I'd bet money that this coming season is where the upswing begins. Once that happens, this franchise will become a place players want to come once again. These things just take time.

Singing a guy like Quincey just allows Holland to buy time to get that top 4 righty this team needs without having to throw too many rookie defensemen into the fire at once on an already young squad that are still learning the game at this level. Great times are coming. The team has a nice blend of vets and kids up front. They'll soon get there on the back end as well. Howard got passed his first year on a new contract, where it is not uncommon for players to struggle. Especially with goalies. But almost just as common is the fact that these players bounce back. We also have Hank who finally got his back fixed. I feel he will have a monster season. In the end, I think a lot of people's frustrations will begin to subside this season.

wings4thecup06 and krsmith17 like this

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