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The Franzen Hate.

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What about it? I really don't see the need for a guy to be down in the dumps. You expecting the team as a whole to commit suicide when they get ousted from the playoffs or something?

I can do whatever I want, just like I can say franzen is absolutely a top 6 forward who we have at a bargain price, for a longer contract then I would like (however it was signed before the stupid recapture penalty was implemented)

Anyway this thread is dumb, pointless, and irritating

I agree with your assessment. The Wings would be dumb to buy him out at this stage. He is worth the price we pay for him. I wonder how the Wings fans would feel if we bought him out and then signed Vanek for $5.5 million a season and he had similar numbers as Franzen (including disappearing in the playoffs).

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What about it? I really don't see the need for a guy to be down in the dumps. You expecting the team as a whole to commit suicide when they get ousted from the playoffs or something?

I expect him to say something like obviously it didn't end the way we wanted and things to didn't go as well as they could have. Not "Oh I was happy with the season". If you were happy with that then go play for the flyers or something. The expectations are much higher in Detroit.

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I expect him to say something like obviously it didn't end the way we wanted and things to didn't go as well as they could have. Not "Oh I was happy with the season". If you were happy with that then go play for the flyers or something. The expectations are much higher in Detroit.

I think you are nitpicking. Most players are going to be unhappy with the end result, but there is no need to kill yourself when you lose the last game of the season. Some of the other players didn't say what you wanted to hear, so are you going to be disappointed in them too? Yea, expectations are higher in Detroit, no question. Its better to look at the season in a bright light, evaluate, and then focus on next season. Not feel horrible shame for being a failure and dwelling on it.

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I expect him to say something like obviously it didn't end the way we wanted and things to didn't go as well as they could have. Not "Oh I was happy with the season". If you were happy with that then go play for the flyers or something. The expectations are much higher in Detroit.

Based on the wording of his answer, it sounds like the question that was asked of Franzen had more to do with the regular season than the playoffs.

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Franzy the panzy...the big Euro sissy boy floater who can't take a punch.

now that's trolling, you crybabies..."oh this thread is irritating"..."you guys are trolling" Grow a pair, Nancy

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I don't mind Franzen's cap hit. I just hate him being called our go to guy when he sucks 3/4 of the year. I am tired of the inconsistency and non interested play. If he wasn't supposed to be our power forward and our sniper, then I would be happy with what he puts up. But since he has that label, he is horrible. He is absolutely the worst top 6 guy in the NHL. I still think a trade is what he needs to get interested again...and if he went somewhere else and scored 40, I wouldn't care, because he will never score 40 here...ever...he may never see 30 again. I am tired of him being "The guy" and only getting 20 goals. We need a new "The Guy" and then Franzen can maybe ease his own mind a bit.

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He's not the guy. Zetterberg and Dats are the guys. Franzen helps out in stretches during the year. His cap hit is not of "the guy". he makes Bickell money, Hudler money, Briere money...

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He's not the guy. Zetterberg and Dats are the guys. Franzen helps out in stretches during the year. His cap hit is not of "the guy". he makes Bickell money, Hudler money, Briere money...

He was supposed to be guy #3.

He was given $43 million dollars. the cap hit argument uses the car payment sales trick. They don't ask how much you're looking to spend, they ask how much you can afford per month. If you finance a $43,000 car for 11 years, the monthly payments don't look half bad. That doesn't mean you're happy when it drives like a Chevy Malibu because the payments are the same size.

The fact is the Red Wings don't hand out 11 year contracts to players they only expect to help out in stretches during the year. As far as I know the only player they've signed for longer than Franzen is the captain of the team. And Z has more compete level in his beard than "Mule" has in his entire body.

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He's not the guy. Zetterberg and Dats are the guys. Franzen helps out in stretches during the year. His cap hit is not of "the guy". he makes Bickell money, Hudler money, Briere money...

One goal in 23 games is an awfully long time to not be any form of a guy.

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Wow people still making excuses for Franzen sucking? Hopefully you guys got another 5 years of excuses.

Franzen is a lazy player that shouldn't be given anymore then 10 minutes per game.

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He was supposed to be guy #3.

He was given $43 million dollars. the cap hit argument uses the car payment sales trick. They don't ask how much you're looking to spend, they ask how much you can afford per month. If you finance a $43,000 car for 11 years, the monthly payments don't look half bad. That doesn't mean you're happy when it drives like a Chevy Malibu because the payments are the same size.

The fact is the Red Wings don't hand out 11 year contracts to players they only expect to help out in stretches during the year. As far as I know the only player they've signed for longer than Franzen is the captain of the team. And Z has more compete level in his beard than "Mule" has in his entire body.

The contract is too long - i was a gamble and I'm sure the organization was hoping he continue being the playoff mule he'd been before and the contract could have been a steal if he had. But he was signed to be the tier lower than Dats and Zetterberg and he is that. The Cap hit shows that. And for that cap hit his production is good.

The car financing analogy really doesn't seem to be all that meaningful to me. I'm sure there are a lot of secondary players that will make around that much over an 11 year period - just not in one contract. To pick a name who's listed as a comparable to Franzen on capgeek, If Mike Fischer plays 4 more years after his current contract(after next year) at around 3.4 mil. (he will probably get more). he will have made 43 mill over 11 years. he'd be 38 at the end of that. Franzen will be 39 at the end of his contract.

The length of Franzen's contract just means that there's a risk that he declines to the point where he his production doesn't warrant the cap hit. The thing to think about with this, though, is that salaries will continue to go up so 3.9 mill in 2019 will definitely get a lower level player than it will now - so Franzen may not be overpaid that much at the end of his contract.

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The length of Franzen's contract just means that there's a risk that he declines to the point where he his production doesn't warrant the cap hit. The thing to think about with this, though, is that salaries will continue to go up so 3.9 mill in 2019 will definitely get a lower level player than it will now - so Franzen may not be overpaid that much at the end of his contract.

Is that what you think will happen or hope? I think if he continues to decline and nancies around the ice more so he can avoid concussions he won't even be worth that much by 2019 no matter what the market is on forwards. The truth is his contract IS too long. They should never have given him one that length and if that's what his agent was asking or he would walk, I would say let his ass walk. Could have gotten Hossa. And the whole thing was a gamble. They were hoping he would be beast mode for another 4 or 5 years and win a couple more cups. Just like they were gambling that they could have gotten sutter and parise or one or the other or Shea weber. None of those things happened either and now they're gambling on their prospects and spending money on mediocre veterans like bertuzzi, Samuelson, Weiss, alfredson and cleary. None of that worked either. So he better have another idea this season and it better include spending some money on a couple guys with two year contracts and making a trade or two at the draft. So far the coaching and management have been striking out the last few seasons, they better get some ducks on the pond this offseason that don't include washed up injury prone floaters. The kings rangers hawks and bruins are showing what it takes to get deep in the playoffs in the nhl today. The wings do not have a roster for that right now. They need to wake up.

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I think you are nitpicking. Most players are going to be unhappy with the end result, but there is no need to kill yourself when you lose the last game of the season. Some of the other players didn't say what you wanted to hear, so are you going to be disappointed in them too? Yea, expectations are higher in Detroit, no question. Its better to look at the season in a bright light, evaluate, and then focus on next season. Not feel horrible shame for being a failure and dwelling on it.

I didn't say wallow in self pity. I said accept the blame and say you aren't satisfied and have the desire to make changes and get a grip back on the league and get back to the finals. Not that you're happy with it. Because I wouldn't be happy with it. I would say it wasn't what we were capable of and it will get better and that I want it to be better. Maybe that's being a competitor. But silly me what do I know. Saying he was happy with it makes me think he is ok and at peace with it and that shouldn't be the case.

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I didn't say wallow in self pity. I said accept the blame and say you aren't satisfied and have the desire to make changes and get a grip back on the league and get back to the finals. Not that you're happy with it. Because I wouldn't be happy with it. I would say it wasn't what we were capable of and it will get better and that I want it to be better. Maybe that's being a competitor. But silly me what do I know. Saying he was happy with it makes me think he is ok and at peace with it and that shouldn't be the case.

Sorry man, but you are nitpicking. Many other Wings players said the same thing he did and you aren't burying them. Trust me, these guys are consummate professionals and they hate losing more than they love winning. Also, you are contradicting yourself. At this stage they should be at peace with the end result because if they aren't they are wallowing in self pity. I would rather a professional athlete take a lesson from the previous season and work on next season. Just saying that they are happy with the way the season ended doesn't mean they weren't disappointed with the end result. Especially with all the injury issues that Franzen suffered.

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The contract is too long - i was a gamble and I'm sure the organization was hoping he continue being the playoff mule he'd been before and the contract could have been a steal if he had. But he was signed to be the tier lower than Dats and Zetterberg and he is that. The Cap hit shows that. And for that cap hit his production is good.

The car financing analogy really doesn't seem to be all that meaningful to me. I'm sure there are a lot of secondary players that will make around that much over an 11 year period - just not in one contract. To pick a name who's listed as a comparable to Franzen on capgeek, If Mike Fischer plays 4 more years after his current contract(after next year) at around 3.4 mil. (he will probably get more). he will have made 43 mill over 11 years. he'd be 38 at the end of that. Franzen will be 39 at the end of his contract.

The length of Franzen's contract just means that there's a risk that he declines to the point where he his production doesn't warrant the cap hit. The thing to think about with this, though, is that salaries will continue to go up so 3.9 mill in 2019 will definitely get a lower level player than it will now - so Franzen may not be overpaid that much at the end of his contract.

Now you're shifting your argument. Franzen was absolutely meant to be the #3 guy. Not someone who helps out for stretches during the year. Yes, Holland's cap circumvention keeps it from being an awful contract as long as the cap keeps going up (which it likely will). But that doesn't change the expectation of him.

During the regular season he is somewhat of a lower tier Datsyuk and Zetterberg. During the playoffs however, Franzen is nowhere close anymore.

Over the last 4 playoffs, Dan Cleary has more points than Franzen. That's with Cleary not even stepping on the ice for a game this last postseason. (Cleary has 16 points in 30 games. Franzen has 12 points in 32 games).

I just don't get how people are content with a 6'3" 225 lb guy with the skill of Franzen who floats around, disappears for long stretches, and seems content with his performance. Against Boston the Wings needed the Mule more than ever, and he was once again a no-show.

Buying him out doesn't really make sense, and Holland doesn't make the kind of bold moves that would involve Franzen in a package deal, so we're likely stuck with him. But he's become a passenger, which is increasingly bad for the team.

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Now you're shifting your argument. Franzen was absolutely meant to be the #3 guy. Not someone who helps out for stretches during the year. Yes, Holland's cap circumvention keeps it from being an awful contract as long as the cap keeps going up (which it likely will). But that doesn't change the expectation of him.

During the regular season he is somewhat of a lower tier Datsyuk and Zetterberg. During the playoffs however, Franzen is nowhere close anymore.

I just don't get how people are content with a 6'3" 225 lb guy with the skill of Franzen who floats around, disappears for long stretches, and seems content with his performance. Against Boston the Wings needed the Mule more than ever, and he was once again a no-show.

How so? The conversation started with someone saying he was the guy. I said he isn't. you brought in the idea of a #3 guy, - that still seems to denote that he's grouped in with Datsyuk and Zetterberg in terms of expectation. I said his money shows he is expected to be a supporting cast member. That seems pretty consistent to me.

As for the #3 guy thing, The money now shows that Weiss is expected to be more of a contributor than Franzen. Alfie was also above Franzen this past year.

Also, to clarify. I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Mule. He's not certainly not a complete player, but he's not paid like a complete player. I just think the hate he get is over the top.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk
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Sorry man, but you are nitpicking. Many other Wings players said the same thing he did and you aren't burying them. Trust me, these guys are consummate professionals and they hate losing more than they love winning. Also, you are contradicting yourself. At this stage they should be at peace with the end result because if they aren't they are wallowing in self pity. I would rather a professional athlete take a lesson from the previous season and work on next season. Just saying that they are happy with the way the season ended doesn't mean they weren't disappointed with the end result. Especially with all the injury issues that Franzen suffered.

I'm not nitpicking. This is a thread about Franzen. Nobody else. And for the amount of money, and length of contract, he sucks. Like I said, we could have Hossa instead of this no show. The only reason he gets an assist on that goal in game 1 is because datyuk DOES show up to play and pulled that s***ty pass out of his ass from Franzen. You watch that replay and it's his style in a nut shell. He was already on his way back to going on defense because he knew his pass was s***ty and not crisp. He is slow and not worth the money he is paid. He is injury prone and scared to get another concussion. He's like a pitcher that's been hit in the head from a line drive. He's timid and waiting for it to happen again rather than just playing. He sucks and he should be traded cut sent down whatever. He's not in shape and can't keep up with the game anymore. It seems like since chelios Holmstrom lidstrom and draper left the conditioning has gone out the window. Those guys were the ones in the gym after games and working out all summer. I think that is part of the problem with this team now. It doesn't seem like they're putting in the work like they used to and it shows at the end of games when they're being out skated to loose pucks. And saying your season didn't end how you wanted it to is not self pity. Ffs, it isn't unprofessional to acknowledge you didn't meet your goals you had for the season and you will get back to work to do your best to prevent it next year. At no point would I say I was happy with that. It doesn't mean it's unprofessional. I wouldn't be happy we lost the winter classic in our backyard, I wouldn't be happy we barely clawed into the playoffs. I wouldn't be happy we lost so many games in ot/shoot out, I wouldn't be happy we have up so many leads, and I sure as s*** wouldn't be happy I lost 4 straight games in the playoffs. If he was just being professional then that's bulls*** too because as a fan I don't need to be lied to. Edited by plopster

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How so? The conversation started with someone saying he was the guy. I said he isn't. you brought in the idea of a #3 guy, - that still seems to denote that he's grouped in with Datsyuk and Zetterberg in terms of expectation. I said his money shows he is expected to be a supporting cast member. That seems pretty consistent to me.

As for the #3 guy thing, The money now shows that Weiss is expected to be more of a contributor than Franzen. Alfie was also above Franzen this past year.

Also, to clarify. I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Mule. He's not certainly not a complete player, but he's not paid like a complete player. I just think the hate he get is over the top.

No, you're still playing games with contract amounts.

You can't compare AAV on a single year basis as a barometer of what the expectations are. These contracts are handed out at different times with the cap at different levels and the team in very different conditions. A UFA signed on short notice in 2013 to fill the hole vacated by Flip is a very different situation than re-signing a roster player in 2009 that the Red Wings drafted.

You're completely ignoring that the Wings gave Franzen an 11 year contract. The second longest contract in the history of the franchise. You only do that with a player you want to be the core of your team. If you look at quotes from the time I bet Holland says as much.

Again, it all gets back to the point as to why people are content with someone with his size and ability underperforming. Frankly I don't care what he's paid. I'm not footing the bills. If the Wings want to win more than one playoff game they need guys who compete night in and night out.

Franzen has the size and skillset to be much better than he is. Or more accurately be as good as he is at times more often.

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This sums it up right here. Look at the language holland and Babcock use about him and his abilities and future abilities. All the people on here comparing him to all the other top 6 guys in the league can now eat your words because that's not what they wanted out of him. http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/04/red_wings_reportedly_sign_joha.html

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This sums it up right here. Look at the language holland and Babcock use about him and his abilities and future abilities. All the people on here comparing him to all the other top 6 guys in the league can now eat your words because that's not what they wanted out of him. http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/04/red_wings_reportedly_sign_joha.html

"He's 29, he's in the prime of his career," - Holland

"he competes, he's good defensively." - Holland

"now he's got to continue to evolve his game," - Babcock

"You're not just signing him for what he is, you're signing him for what you hope he's going to be. So that means work ethic and determination and skill development and continue to get better so he can be the player we perceive him to be." - Babcock

Holland already said he's not going to buyout Franzen. Whether you like him or not, are disappointed in him or not, every GM including Holland knows he's worth his contract. It's ridiculous to suggest a buyout. It's not going to happen.

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No, you're still playing games with contract amounts.

You can't compare AAV on a single year basis as a barometer of what the expectations are. These contracts are handed out at different times with the cap at different levels and the team in very different conditions. A UFA signed on short notice in 2013 to fill the hole vacated by Flip is a very different situation than re-signing a roster player in 2009 that the Red Wings drafted.

You're completely ignoring that the Wings gave Franzen an 11 year contract. The second longest contract in the history of the franchise. You only do that with a player you want to be the core of your team. If you look at quotes from the time I bet Holland says as much.

Again, it all gets back to the point as to why people are content with someone with his size and ability underperforming. Frankly I don't care what he's paid. I'm not footing the bills. If the Wings want to win more than one playoff game they need guys who compete night in and night out.

Franzen has the size and skillset to be much better than he is. Or more accurately be as good as he is at times more often.

Why are falsely claiming that "I'm playing games" and "shifting my argument?" We just disagree about what his contract says about his expected contribution to the team. Respect my view as I do yours. I'm putting up real numbers as support - I'm not playing with them. For me, the cap hit is all important in the cap world.

Yes, he was signed for an 11 year contract - it says he meant to be a part of the team for a long time. We just disagree how large a part. I think, if he was expected to contribute closer to the level of Z and Dats then his cap hit would be closer to theirs. And yet many fans are always angry at him for not being at that level. It's understandable because of his stretches of great play. If he was that player consistently, though, he'd be paid much more.

Franzen needs to be better than he was this playoffs, but that can probably be said about every player on the team. Yet Franzen is the lightning rod for hate. Franzen is not one of the drivers of our bus - not paid like that, won't be that guy consistently.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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"He's 29, he's in the prime of his career," - Holland

"he competes, he's good defensively." - Holland

"now he's got to continue to evolve his game," - Babcock

"You're not just signing him for what he is, you're signing him for what you hope he's going to be. So that means work ethic and determination and skill development and continue to get better so he can be the player we perceive him to be." - Babcock

Holland already said he's not going to buyout Franzen. Whether you like him or not, are disappointed in him or not, every GM including Holland knows he's worth his contract. It's ridiculous to suggest a buyout. It's not going to happen.

Yeah. This thread is about not liking him because he has not been doing what they said they were paying him to do. So what is your point. Franzen is not earning his money that they could have spent somewhere else. He needs to be off the team. However they have to do it to get rid of him and free up cap space they should because he has not done what they wanted him to do. And he never should have asked for an 11 year contract. He should have signed a 5 year. Because we could move him on to another team and get better quality forwards by now. That's ken holland and babcocks fault. They play the sentimental game and want to keep guys. That's bulls***. This is a sport. The shelf life for guys isn't high like it was for lids chelios and yzerman. This is a business. Stop playing the we want these guys to be a lifer routine. It's not feasible. Edited by plopster

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