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The Franzen Hate.

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Why are falsely claiming that "I'm playing games" and "shifting my argument?" We just disagree about what his contract says about his expected contribution to the team. Respect my view as I do yours. I'm putting up real numbers as support - I'm not playing with them. For me, the cap hit is all important in the cap world.

Yes, he was signed for an 11 year contract - it says he meant to be a part of the team for a long time. We just disagree how large a part. I think, if he was expected to contribute closer to the level of Z and Dats then his cap hit would be closer to theirs. And yet many fans are always angry at him for not being at that level. It's understandable because of his stretches of great play. If he was that player consistently, though, he'd be paid much more.

Franzen needs to be better than he was this playoffs, but that can probably be said about every player on the team. Yet Franzen is the lightning rod for hate. Franzen is not one of the drivers of our bus - not paid like that, won't be that guy consistently.

You're cherrypicking his single year AAV to compare it to other players signed under extremely different circumstances. It's not really an apples to apples comparison to Franzen's contract because it ignores every other single variable about their situations.

But just to be clear, you're saying when the Red Wings gave an 11-year contract to Franzen, the second longest in the 80+ year history of the franchise (the longest being to the current captain and one of their franchise players), they didn't intend for him to be a core contributing player to the team, second only in importance to the likes of Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

And it's not just about this last playoffs. Did you see my last post where I mentioned Dan Cleary has more playoff points in the last 4 postseasons then Franzen, even though Clearly didn't play this postseason.

Let me say that again.

Dan friggin Cleary, whipping boy and scapegoat for all that sucks about the Red Wings, has more playoff points over the last four seasons than Johan Franzen. Think about the size and talent level of Dan Cleary. Now compare it to Franzen. Franzen is superior in every way. Yet Cleary the human zamboni has 4 more points in 2 fewer games.

Again, I don't understand the great lengths you're going to make excuses for the guy.

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You're cherrypicking his single year AAV to compare it to other players signed under extremely different circumstances. It's not really an apples to apples comparison to Franzen's contract because it ignores every other single variable about their situations.

But just to be clear, you're saying when the Red Wings gave an 11-year contract to Franzen, the second longest in the 80+ year history of the franchise (the longest being to the current captain and one of their franchise players), they didn't intend for him to be a core contributing player to the team, second only in importance to the likes of Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

And it's not just about this last playoffs. Did you see my last post where I mentioned Dan Cleary has more playoff points in the last 4 postseasons then Franzen, even though Clearly didn't play this postseason.

Let me say that again.

Dan friggin Cleary, whipping boy and scapegoat for all that sucks about the Red Wings, has more playoff points over the last four seasons than Johan Franzen. Think about the size and talent level of Dan Cleary. Now compare it to Franzen. Franzen is superior in every way. Yet Cleary the human zamboni has 4 more points in 2 fewer games.

Again, I don't understand the great lengths you're going to make excuses for the guy.

I've made my view very clear so you can reread my other posts. What I've been doing is not making excuses for him. I've stated in my post that I am not even much of fan of his. I'm criticizing the amount of hate he has gotten. This conversation started with somebody claiming he was "the go-to guy." I think he not and shouldn't be thought of that way. That's a clear opinion.

You're cherrypicking his single year AAV to compare it to other players signed under extremely different circumstances. It's not really an apples to apples comparison to Franzen's contract because it ignores every other single variable about their situations.

It's not "cherry-picking" to show a player's Cap Hit and show that he farther down the depth chart. For home grown names, during Franzen's contract, LIdstrom has made more, Kronwall, Howard, and Ericsson will next year. Kronwall will make more in 10 years than Franzen will over the course of his 11 year contract. Ericsson might end up making more over the course of Franzen's contract as well. Shouldn't that mean that they are expected to be greater contributers to the team? Or not just because the money was doled out in a number of contracts instead of Franzen's one very long one?

You think the 11 year contract length is really important for what we. I think the cap hit is what matters most.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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I've made my view very clear so you can reread my other posts. What I've been doing is not making excuses for him. I've stated in my post that I am not even much of fan of his. I'm criticizing the amount of hate he has gotten. This conversation started with somebody claiming he was "the go-to guy." I think he not and shouldn't be thought of that way. That's a clear opinion.

You're cherrypicking his single year AAV to compare it to other players signed under extremely different circumstances. It's not really an apples to apples comparison to Franzen's contract because it ignores every other single variable about their situations.

It's not "cherry-picking" to show a player's Cap Hit and show that he farther down the depth chart. For home grown names, during Franzen's contract, LIdstrom has made more, Kronwall, Howard, and Ericsson will next year. Kronwall will make more in 10 than Franzen over the course of his 10 year contract. Ericsson might end up making more as well. Should they be consider #3 contributers to the team?

You think the 11 year contract length is really important for what we. I think the cap hit is what matters most.

The guy gets that amount of hate because as the coach and manager said, he was supposed to be elite. Had they gone with Hossa we would be in better shape. That's why he gets the hate. Because they gave him the deal because he was supposed to be producing like he had been. Instead he turned out to be a dud and Hossa went to the cup finals and won twice with the red wings main rival in the league and geographically. That's why he gets the hate. And rightfully so. He's lazy slow and then says he's happy with the way things went. f*** that. And f*** him for being lazy. Id rather have a guy that only puts up cleary type points that busts his ass every night up and down the rink than pay some bum to float around and pick his spots and show up when he feels like it. Edited by plopster

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The guy gets that amount of hate because as the coach and manager said, he was supposed to be elite. Had they gone with Hossa we would be in better shape. That's why he gets the hate. Because they gave him the deal because he was supposed to be producing like he had been. Instead he turned out to be a dud and Hossa went to the cup finals and won twice with the red wings main rival in the league and geographically. That's why he gets the hate. And rightfully so. He's lazy slow and then says he's happy with the way things went. f*** that. And f*** him for being lazy. Id rather have a guy that only puts up cleary type points that busts his ass every night up and down the rink than pay some bum to float around and pick his spots and show up when he feels like it.

and thats why you're not gm, you would just end up with a team full of guys putting up 20 points a year, but hey they work hard. We didn't make the playoffs, but we got a participation badge!!! :w00t2:

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If Franzen is good and his contract is so reasonable, how come there is NEVER any rumors about other teams wanting him or stories about teams even asking about the possibility of trading for him? There are people with RW ties all over the NHL in front offices and on coaching staffs. yet no one ever is rumored to want him. Why? There are plenty of teams with cap room that can use more scoring. The 2 things that are Franzen's "strengths". Yet there is nothing out there in rumorville........... Never is.

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If Franzen is good and his contract is so reasonable, how come there is NEVER any rumors about other teams wanting him or stories about teams even asking about the possibility of trading for him? There are people with RW ties all over the NHL in front offices and on coaching staffs. yet no one ever is rumored to want him. Why? There are plenty of teams with cap room that can use more scoring. The 2 things that are Franzen's "strengths". Yet there is nothing out there in rumorville........... Never is.

He's never been shopped lol just like 99% of the wings

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The guy's getting under 4 million per year, and he's in the top 60 forwards in the league for points per game.

You can argue that he's not what you, Ken Holland and Mike Babcock wanted him to be. You can argue that Hossa is a better player and they should have kept him. You can argue that he gets lazy and hasn't played to his potential... but what's the point? Seriously.

The truth of the matter is that he's worth the money he's being paid, and there's basically no chance the team gets rid of him. The argument is mind boggling to me. He's an exceedingly frustrating player to watch, but he's here to stay. He's a good complimentary player, and he's being paid a fair amount of money for that role.

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and thats why you're not gm, you would just end up with a team full of guys putting up 20 points a year, but hey they work hard. We didn't make the playoffs, but we got a participation badge!!! :w00t2:

Yeah because I said I wanted to fill the roster with guys like that. But thanks for pointing out you barely make the playoffs when people don't produce like Franzen. The point I was making is if you're going to spend money you should get a return for it.

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Yeah because I said I wanted to fill the roster with guys like that. But thanks for pointing out you barely make the playoffs when people don't produce like Franzen. The point I was making is if you're going to spend money you should get a return for it.

Good thing Franzen is worth 4 mil

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Yeah because I said I wanted to fill the roster with guys like that. But thanks for pointing out you barely make the playoffs when people don't produce like Franzen. The point I was making is if you're going to spend money you should get a return for it.

You're right. 41 points in 54 games isn't producing. If $4m players are supposed to produce at a ppg pace I guess you're right.

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Good thing Franzen is worth 4 mil

He's only worth about 2.5 what bothers me most is that they're paying him 4 mil for 5 more years. He's peaked and they can't drop him. Maybe he gets concussed and has to retire. Best case scenario.

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He's only worth about 2.5 what bothers me most is that they're paying him 4 mil for 5 more years. He's peaked and they can't drop him. Maybe he gets concussed and has to retire. Best case scenario.

The fact that you're wishing a person an injury serious enough to end a career is pretty classless. Hockey and what he's worth on the ice aside, that's low.

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Guest DeGraa55

The fact that you're wishing a person an injury serious enough to end a career is pretty classless. Hockey and what he's worth on the ice aside, that's low.

Agreed it is low cause if he officially retires we still have to pay his useless ass. We want him on LITR not retirement. :)

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You're right. 41 points in 54 games isn't producing. If $4m players are supposed to produce at a ppg pace I guess you're right.

This right here. I still haven't heard a single person give me a player that we could sign for $4 million a season that would produce like that. Sure, ditch Franzen and sign Vanek for $6 million a season, and watch him produce less and disappear in the playoffs as well.

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Do not know if this goes for everyone, but the reason why Johan leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and frustration is due to his lack of effort at times, and making comments such as "he wants to have fun" versus when he plays with focus and intensity, he is like a man possessed, and can change the entire game.

Maybe this is why he is criticized so heavily....

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Do not know if this goes for everyone, but the reason why Johan leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and frustration is due to his lack of effort at times, and making comments such as "he wants to have fun" versus when he plays with focus and intensity, he is like a man possessed, and can change the entire game.

Maybe this is why he is criticized so heavily....

Of course, but that doesn't make him worth buying out. He definitely scores in bunches and we will always have to deal with that

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People are judging this contract based on the length. He wasn't supposed to play the last 2 or 3 years of it, and under the rules that were in place when it was signed there would have been no cap implications for him retiring. The only thing that makes it a remotely bad contract is the NHL retroactively punishing teams with front loaded contracts. Consistency issues aside, Franzen puts up a good number of points for his cap hit. How many guys who have signed as a UFA are putting up better numbers for the same money or less? Virtually all of them are still on entry level or RFA contracts where they had less leverage and therefore got less, or had done nothing to indicate that they could score 25+ goals before signing their current contract. People are talking about giving Vanek $3 mil more. Over the last 3 full seasons plus the lockout, you get something like 3 more goals and 10 more points from Vanek than you do Franzen, and Vanek is less engaged away from the puck or when he's not scoring. If Vanek is worth $6 or 7 mil, Franzen certainly is worth $4 mil.

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People are judging this contract based on the length. He wasn't supposed to play the last 2 or 3 years of it, and under the rules that were in place when it was signed there would have been no cap implications for him retiring. The only thing that makes it a remotely bad contract is the NHL retroactively punishing teams with front loaded contracts. Consistency issues aside, Franzen puts up a good number of points for his cap hit. How many guys who have signed as a UFA are putting up better numbers for the same money or less? Virtually all of them are still on entry level or RFA contracts where they had less leverage and therefore got less, or had done nothing to indicate that they could score 25+ goals before signing their current contract. People are talking about giving Vanek $3 mil more. Over the last 3 full seasons plus the lockout, you get something like 3 more goals and 10 more points from Vanek than you do Franzen, and Vanek is less engaged away from the puck or when he's not scoring. If Vanek is worth $6 or 7 mil, Franzen certainly is worth $4 mil.

I sure as s*** wouldn't pay vanek that much either. He wouldn't get more than 3 mil per. But I wouldn't want him anyway. Id rather see them chance on someone like gaborik that has proven himself before. But really it would be better to go with someone that has had little injury issues. Guys with nagging injuries are really annoying.

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The fact that you're wishing a person an injury serious enough to end a career is pretty classless. Hockey and what he's worth on the ice aside, that's low.

No, I WISH he would be more dedicated and play hard every night and put in the effort that got him his nickname. But if he isn't going to do that then he should quit. As a paying fan and one who will have to pay more for a ticket for a new arena do not want to see someone take nights off. If you don't feel like playing that night then tell them and take a scratch.

Edited by plopster

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Do not know if this goes for everyone, but the reason why Johan leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and frustration is due to his lack of effort at times, and making comments such as "he wants to have fun" versus when he plays with focus and intensity, he is like a man possessed, and can change the entire game.

Maybe this is why he is criticized so heavily....

Exactly. It's been well established that because of his cap circumventing contract his production, even though half-assed, is worth the cap hit.

That makes him a poor candidate for buyout, but he's still become increasingly bad for the team. More and more he's a guy who you desperately hope will show up, but can in no way count on it. Particularly come playoff time.

Unless Holland makes an uncharacteristic move and packages Franzen in a huge trade, we're stuck with him. But that doesn't mean I have to be happy with a player who consistently underperforms, no matter what his AAV is.

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Of course, but that doesn't make him worth buying out. He definitely scores in bunches and we will always have to deal with that

In my post or in this thread I don't think I mentioned my thoughts on him being bought out or not; with that being said, a player that comes to player every night such as Z or Pavs or even Miller, they give 110% every second, minute, and shift. Now when you look at the effort with those players versus Johan, well, it was already pointed out

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In my post or in this thread I don't think I mentioned my thoughts on him being bought out or not; with that being said, a player that comes to player every night such as Z or Pavs or even Miller, they give 110% every second, minute, and shift. Now when you look at the effort with those players versus Johan, well, it was already pointed out

those guys also get payed handsomely for it...Franzen is paid the money that a player who puts up 50+ points/year and takes a bunch of nights off will make, in fact he is paid less then most of those players would.Miller doesn't provide much offensively but he is great defensively, so he gets paid relatively well for what he provides, Z and D are the heart and soul of our team (along with helm) and they put up big points, and are always backchecking, and never take nights off, but they also make way more money then he does.

It would fare better if you compared apples to apples

Vanek - $7m/year cap hit, just as streakey, probably will get $6m/year on his next contract

Nash - $7.8 m/year cap hit, see Vanek

Hall - $6m/year cap hit, just as streaky

Thornton - $7m/year cap hit, very streaky

Kessel - Starting an 8 year $64 million deal, he has been very streaky almost every year

Ovechkin - $9.5 m/year oh boy ovechkin is the worst of the worst, he has recently started scoring a lot of goals again, but he is not engaged ever, 28 assists, that is all he gotthis year. that would be good for 4th on ourteam that barely scored this year, for the guy with the highest cap hit in the league, unacceptable.

These are all very streaky players that don't provide much when they go cold and they all make considerably more than franzen. The grass is always greener, but everyone here would copmplain just as much, if not more if we had any of those players, and considering their cap hits and productions, I will take Mule every time

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those guys also get payed handsomely for it...Franzen is paid the money that a player who puts up 50+ points/year and takes a bunch of nights off will make, in fact he is paid less then most of those players would.Miller doesn't provide much offensively but he is great defensively, so he gets paid relatively well for what he provides, Z and D are the heart and soul of our team (along with helm) and they put up big points, and are always backchecking, and never take nights off, but they also make way more money then he does.

It would fare better if you compared apples to apples

Vanek - $7m/year cap hit, just as streakey, probably will get $6m/year on his next contract

Nash - $7.8 m/year cap hit, see Vanek

Hall - $6m/year cap hit, just as streaky

Thornton - $7m/year cap hit, very streaky

Kessel - Starting an 8 year $64 million deal, he has been very streaky almost every year

Ovechkin - $9.5 m/year oh boy ovechkin is the worst of the worst, he has recently started scoring a lot of goals again, but he is not engaged ever, 28 assists, that is all he gotthis year. that would be good for 4th on ourteam that barely scored this year, for the guy with the highest cap hit in the league, unacceptable.

These are all very streaky players that don't provide much when they go cold and they all make considerably more than franzen. The grass is always greener, but everyone here would copmplain just as much, if not more if we had any of those players, and considering their cap hits and productions, I will take Mule every time

You are telling me that Johan looks at how much he makes and decides on how many goals, assists, and effort he will bring? Edited by Rivalred

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those guys also get payed handsomely for it...Franzen is paid the money that a player who puts up 50+ points/year and takes a bunch of nights off will make, in fact he is paid less then most of those players would.Miller doesn't provide much offensively but he is great defensively, so he gets paid relatively well for what he provides, Z and D are the heart and soul of our team (along with helm) and they put up big points, and are always backchecking, and never take nights off, but they also make way more money then he does.

It would fare better if you compared apples to apples

Vanek - $7m/year cap hit, just as streakey, probably will get $6m/year on his next contract

Nash - $7.8 m/year cap hit, see Vanek

Hall - $6m/year cap hit, just as streaky

Thornton - $7m/year cap hit, very streaky

Kessel - Starting an 8 year $64 million deal, he has been very streaky almost every year

Ovechkin - $9.5 m/year oh boy ovechkin is the worst of the worst, he has recently started scoring a lot of goals again, but he is not engaged ever, 28 assists, that is all he gotthis year. that would be good for 4th on ourteam that barely scored this year, for the guy with the highest cap hit in the league, unacceptable.

These are all very streaky players that don't provide much when they go cold and they all make considerably more than franzen. The grass is always greener, but everyone here would copmplain just as much, if not more if we had any of those players, and considering their cap hits and productions, I will take Mule every time

Are you saying those guys are an apples to apples comparison to Franzen??

They've all produced at a level Franzen never has, and many of them are significantly younger.

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