• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
wings7

At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I wasn't either. I was merely pointing out a lot of posters on here don't know how to gauge talent. They are either 1st line elite superstars or they are 4th line grinders. All I keep reading right now is "We don't have a superstar after Z and D are gone" which is 4-5 years away.

I'd say more like 2-3 years away. And if Z doesn't show a serious uptick in his late-season game moving forward, you might as well consider what Z stands for in terms of points gone sooner. I hope we get 4-5 years of leadership at least out of Z though. At worst, I think he still stands to bring a lot of value to this team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say more like 2-3 years away. And if Z doesn't show a serious uptick in his late-season game moving forward, you might as well consider what Z stands for in terms of points gone sooner. I hope we get 4-5 years of leadership at least out of Z though. At worst, I think he still stands to bring a lot of value to this team.

Maybe I was being generous by saying 4-5 years, your right 2-3 years is more realistic. We have a bunch of Kids that will be coming up in that time that could be surprises. AA, Mantha, Larkin, Sproul, Jensen. We will obviously be drafting pretty good in that time frame as well, which is exactly where I trust Holland the most - he was a Pro scout after all, he knows how to evaluate players and skill. Then we have free agency where we can pickup a few players, hopefully some higher ranked FA for once but I am not one to blame Holland for a FA not wanting to come here like most people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jurco, yeah, I get that. Smith too. But Pulk hasn't had much of a chance here yet. And you could say the same even for Jurco on some level. Don't get me wrong, I think we overvalue a lot of guys too, but I think there's a chance some of these guys stand to come out looking better than they do right now over the next couple years.

That said, I do think there's something to be said for moving prospects for NHL-ready talent if you can. I'm not one of those whining about all the guys we gave up, and if it meant adding significant pieces to round out this team, I could stand to lose some of our better talent coming up. It's part of the game. You hang onto everybody, you're bound to get burnt, and vice versa. Holland could stand to find more of a middle ground than he has and we might have a more well-rounded defensive group.

I agree. I said as much above. "In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be".

As far as moving prospects, I'm not opposed to it. But I'm not in favor of moving prospects for marginally better talent, on much worse contracts. The good thing about hanging onto homegrown players is that you can manage the evolution of their salaries a little bit easier because of restricted free agency, bridge contracts, and (hopefully) hometown discounts. Which is good for the team's cap situation. So unless it's a slam dunk, and the guy you're trading for is WAY better, it's usually best to just keep your guys.

Honestly, I'd rather see Holland overpay in free agency than overpay at the trade deadline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. I said as much above. "In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be".

As far as moving prospects, I'm not opposed to it. But I'm not in favor of moving prospects for marginally better talent, on much worse contracts. The good thing about hanging onto homegrown players is that you can manage the evolution of their salaries a little bit easier because of restricted free agency, bridge contracts, and (hopefully) hometown discounts. Which is good for the team's cap situation. So unless it's a slam dunk, and the guy you're trading for is WAY better, it's usually best to just keep your guys.

Honestly, I'd rather see Holland overpay in free agency than overpay at the trade deadline.

Sorry, missed that about "too early." And I definitely agree, I'd rather overpay in free-agency as well. I just wish we'd target more accessible guys and overpay them. I mean, hell, what's the worst that could happen? Another Uwe Krupp or Stephen Weiss? It's not like it'd be the first time... I'm just really sick of having to pick up scraps in the weeks following the start of free agency because we missed out on the big name or two we were chasing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, but I didn't ask about Abby or Ericsson. I'm asking about Tatar, Nyquist, and Dekeyser because they were our most heralded young players, and you previously said "I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best".

I'm serious just wondering if you're including them in there, or are you talking about our lesser prospect. Because you'd have a point with Pulkkinen or Smith. But I think no matter how you cut it, Tatar and Nyquist are legit top six forwards, and Dekeyser is a legit top four defenseman. And considering they're only just finishing up their sophmore years, I don't think it's a stretch to think they'll continue to improve their games as well.

It's hard to bring up Tatar and Nyquist in a positive light after these last few playoffs. They're old enough now where I wanted to see them take the bull by the horns. Instead, all I saw is that we're in trouble when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retire. Of course, I may be wrong, but you're not right either. We haven't yet seen that these two players are top tier players that can carry us in big moments. They need a star player around them, like a Datsyuk, Giroux, Crosby type for them to excel. Even then they haven't done so in the last two playoffs with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. To me, they look like followers and not leaders.

Dekeyser is a defensive defenseman that can be a top 4 guy. He's not a GR player that people have raved about, because his background had nothing to do with GR. I was talking about Smith and not Dekeyser.

The jury is out on Larkin, Mantha and Sproul. We'll see.

Edited by GMRwings1983

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to bring up Tatar and Nyquist in a positive light after these last few playoffs. They're old enough now where I wanted to see them take the bull by the horns. Instead, all I saw is that we're in trouble when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retire. Of course, I may be wrong, but you're not right either. We haven't yet seen that these two players are top tier players that can carry us in big moments. They need a star player around them, like a Datsyuk, Giroux, Crosby type for them to excel. Even then they haven't done so in the last two playoffs with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. To me, they look like followers and not leaders.

Dekeyser is a defensive defenseman that can be a top 4 guy. He's not a GR player that people have raved about, because his background had nothing to do with GR. I was talking about Smith and not Dekeyser.

While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this. Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers. Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years. And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats).

I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars. But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either. At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels. Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them. Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will say this about the NHL it is becoming really difficult to pull off a blockbuster trade, there is so much parity in this league half of the teams don't want to make a trade. It's almost becoming like the NFL. Everyone just trades draft picks and over the hill players. If you do want to make a trade you have to trade away 3 good farm talents and a first round to just to get 1 player lol

That being said I do feel that Holland is good at the drafting aspect of being a GM, but can't work the free agency or trade market that well. Loyalty will be the death of this team.

Edited by MTU_Huskies963

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this. Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers. Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years. And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats).

I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars. But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either. At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels. Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them. Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either.

I will say that Datsyuk was dealing with some pretty serious injuries in the playoffs early in his career that didn't help him one bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best.

I'll wait to see if those guys you listed amount to anything special in the NHL before I feel like we gave something important away.

People here have a tendency to overrate our GR players. Just remember, Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in juniors.

What are you talking about?

You said Holland needs to trade our overvalued prospects. I cited 3 examples where he did just that, and recently. One of your less clever side steps my friend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will say that Datsyuk was dealing with some pretty serious injuries in the playoffs early in his career that didn't help him one bit.

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons.

Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons.

And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent.

If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections.

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons.

Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons.

And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent.

If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections.

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

Sorry, but totally disagree about Datsyuk. Z took some time to look like a full-blown superstar, but Datsyuk was pretty incredible from the get go. You knew he was going to be incredible even in his rookie year. He did have to get stronger though, which I think is Nyqvist's biggest need right now as well. He's just too weak. Datsyuk spent one of his early summers putting on 20 pounds of muscle and he became another kind of force when the next season started.

And bear in mind, I'm not one of the people slamming Tatar and Nyquist. I'm definitely willing to give them time to continue to develop. But I don't think either of them have it in them to be as good of players as Datsyuk is and was, let alone how complete of a player Datsyuk is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but totally disagree about Datsyuk. Z took some time to look like a full-blown superstar, but Datsyuk was pretty incredible from the get go. You knew he was going to be incredible even in his rookie year. He did have to get stronger though, which I think is Nyqvist's biggest need right now as well. He's just too weak. Datsyuk spent one of his early summers putting on 20 pounds of muscle and he became another kind of force when the next season started.

And bear in mind, I'm not one of the people slamming Tatar and Nyquist. I'm definitely willing to give them time to continue to develop. But I don't think either of them have it in them to be as good of players as Datsyuk is and was, let alone how complete of a player Datsyuk is.

Zetterberg was considered the better player earlier in their careers. He was a Rookie of the Year finalist. If anything, he looked more like a star than Dats did early on.

Datsyuk wasn't a "complete player" when he came into the league. He learned to play that way later. When he came into the league he was legitimately criticized for being soft on the puck, trying to stick handle too much and not making the simple play, and not shooting enough.

His breakout year was his third, and it wasn't until his fourth that people regarded him as one of the top players in the league (which happens when you score 80+ points). And even up through 2007 people were still wondering if he could be "the guy" in Detroit, considering he hadn't been great in the playoffs until that year.

This notion that Dats was a superstar right from the start, is completely romanticized.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't believe people are putting Tatar, Nyquist into Z and Pasha category. Both of them can hopefully solid top 6 wingers for a long time but I don't think they'll ever be stars which isn't a knock on them.

If I had the choice between the best coach in hockey and a GM who doesn't want to take risks I'd pick the best coach.

Babcock was spot on with his comments I think he is trying to make sure that Holland isn't as ill prepared for the post Pasha and I era as he was for the retirement of Rafalski, Lids. I mean if the defense isn't fixed by then how long would it take Holland to also fix the center position ?

If the GR kids are that great, why are other teams only asking for the 2 top guys (Larkin, Mantha) ? Could it be that other teams are having enough of the other guys themselves ? But yeah according to some every prospect will work out because and exceed expectations..

Hockey is a team game and therefore Holland does deserve blame for failing to fix the defense and sticking to patchworks.

Edited by frankgrimes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't believe people are putting Tatar, Nyquist into Z and Pasha category. Both of them can hopefully solid top 6 wingers for a long time but I don't think they'll ever be stars which isn't a knock on them. If I had the choice between the best coach in hockey and a GM who doesn't want to take risks I'd pick the best coach. Babcock was spot on with his comments I think he is trying to make sure that Holland isn't as ill prepared for the post Pasha and I era as he was for the retirement of Rafalski, Lids. I mean if the defense isn't fixed by then how long would it take Holland to also fix the center position ? If the GR kids are that great, why are other teams only asking for the 2 top guys (Larkin, Mantha) ? Could it be that other teams are having enough of the other guys themselves ? But yeah according to some every prospect will work out because and exceed expectations.. Hockey is a team game and therefore Holland does deserve blame for failing to fix the defense and sticking to patchworks.

Fact: Tatar and Nyquist are better point producers than Dats and Z were at that a similar point in their careers.

The reason "some people" are putting them in the same category is because they've performed better...at least offensively.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zetterberg was considered the better player earlier in their careers. He was a Rookie of the Year finalist. If anything, he looked more like a star than Dats did early on.

Datsyuk wasn't a "complete player" when he came into the league. He learned to play that way later. When he came into the league he was legitimately criticized for being soft on the puck, trying to stick handle too much and not making the simple play, and not shooting enough.

His breakout year was his third, and it wasn't until his fourth that people regarded him as one of the top players in the league (which happens when you score 80+ points). And even up through 2007 people were still wondering if he could be "the guy" in Detroit, considering he hadn't been great in the playoffs until that year.

This notion that Dats was a superstar right from the start, is completely romanticized.

A whole lot of people knew we had something very, very special in Datsyuk in 2002. True, he didn't become the fully realized player he now is until a bit later, but the evidence that he was going to be great was very much on display very early on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons.

Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons.

And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent.

If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections.

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

In fact LGW used to tear Datsyuk a new one every post season because of his play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A whole lot of people knew we had something very, very special in Datsyuk in 2002. True, he didn't become the fully realized player he now is until a bit later, but the evidence that he was going to be great was very much on display very early on.

You knew that Datsyuk was a "very very special player" in 2002 when he scored 35 points, mostly passing to Brett Hull, and played 13 minutes a night?

If that's true you have missed your calling as a professional hockey scout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And also, why is making the playoffs the gold standard in Hockeytown now? When did that happen?

Getting into the post-season is quite nice. Yes, first round exists suck, but it happens. Someone gets to win, and someone gets to lose. I love the Wings, but they can't win every year. This isn't a video game where you can turn the difficulty down until you win almost every game.

If our goal is going deeper into the playoffs, then yes, we'll need to make changes. We were pretty healthy this year and we didn't get it done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You knew that Datsyuk was a "very very special player" in 2002 when he scored 35 points, mostly passing to Brett Hull, and played 13 minutes a night?

If that's true you have missed your calling as a professional hockey scout.

Exactly. No one knew s*** about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.

Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting into the post-season is quite nice. Yes, first round exists suck, but it happens. Someone gets to win, and someone gets to lose. I love the Wings, but they can't win every year. This isn't a video game where you can turn the difficulty down until you win almost every game.

If our goal is going deeper into the playoffs, then yes, we'll need to make changes. We were pretty healthy this year and we didn't get it done.

Yes first round exists happen, but it's what, 4 out of the last 5 years for us now? That can't be shrugged off by saying "it happens. Someone gets to win and someone gets to lose".

It's very clear that we're lacking some punch to finish teams off in a 7 game series. We can compete, but as of late we've been coming up short, and it's happening far too often for my liking.

You know next year Boston is going to be better, just another team in the east that we'll have to fight with for a playoff spot. Something needs to be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. No one knew s*** about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.

Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.

Half the fanbase wanted it as well which is actually hilarious.

Yes first round exists happen, but it's what, 4 out of the last 5 years for us now? That can't be shrugged off by saying "it happens. Someone gets to win and someone gets to lose".

It's very clear that we're lacking some punch to finish teams off in a 7 game series. We can compete, but as of late we've been coming up short, and it's happening far too often for my liking.

You know next year Boston is going to be better, just another team in the east that we'll have to fight with for a playoff spot. Something needs to be done.

Boston is in cap hell and Chara is basically done. I highly doubt they will be any better then they were this year.

We took Tampa to game 7 (half the forum was saying Tampa in 4), and should have really won the series. I don't look at this year as a complete failure like some other have said. Franzen, and Cole could have really helped. Kronwall could have helped the last game as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Getting into the post-season is quite nice. Yes, first round exists suck, but it happens. Someone gets to win, and someone gets to lose. I love the Wings, but they can't win every year. This isn't a video game where you can turn the difficulty down until you win almost every game. If our goal is going deeper into the playoffs, then yes, we'll need to make changes. We were pretty healthy this year and we didn't get it done. Yes first round exists happen, but it's what, 4 out of the last 5 years for us now? That can't be shrugged off by saying "it happens. Someone gets to win and someone gets to lose". It's very clear that we're lacking some punch to finish teams off in a 7 game series. We can compete, but as of late we've been coming up short, and it's happening far too often for my liking. You know next year Boston is going to be better, just another team in the east that we'll have to fight with for a playoff spot. Something needs to be done.
This team hasn't seen the third round since their last scf appearance. They are hanging on to making the playoffs while the 2 remaining stars are aging fast.Changes will be needed because Boston, Philly well for sure get better ..buffalo has a ton of talent plus they're adding Eichel plus the 16 draft isn't as good as this one. Tough position to be in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. No one knew s*** about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.

Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.

I may have been influenced by the number on the back of the sweater but initially I thought Datsyuk would be like Slava Kozlov. A guy with great hands and some nifty moves who could be a great supporting piece but not one of the main guys. Man was I wrong.

That being said I don't think we have a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in Nyquist or Tatar, but I'd love to be wrong again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may have been influenced by the number on the back of the sweater but initially I thought Datsyuk would be like Slava Kozlov. A guy with great hands and some nifty moves who could be a great supporting piece but not one of the main guys. Man was I wrong.

That being said I don't think we have a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in Nyquist or Tatar, but I'd love to be wrong again.

Don't think they'll be as good as zetterberg or datsyuk but then again who is? Some People think star forwards and elite number 1dmen grow on trees

Kind of bugged me hearing Babcock say that ... Go look around each team and see how many teams have 2 elite star forwards upfront

That being said it's not like were f***en chop liver like some people seem to think ... Would a 50 goal scorer like ovechkin be amazing here? Sure but I'd rather have 5-6 guys who can score around 25 goals than one big guy

Nyquist +Tatar can do that .... Abdelkader after this yr has shown he could be get 20-25 goals a few more times

Gotta believe a few out of larkin mantha athanasiou holmstrom will be 20-25 goal guys ... Yes nothing's guaranteed but they got all the tools

Pulkkinen and sheahan can be 20-25 guys .... Jurco if we didn't screw up his development might be able to get back on track

Sure nothing is guaranteed but detroit are far from being over .... All we need now is to add a few solid veterans and dmen in the 26-32 age range to mix in with the kids

And if Babcock doesn't believe in our team then good riddens ... As good a coach as he is he's always had the luxury of having star teams , here and in canada so that surely helps out any coach to win

He leaves , we got Blashill who knows how to push our prospects buttons to get the best out of them

Redwings will be better than okay

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this