• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Richdg

Fixing this mess....

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Don't wish to come across as a ranting lunatic, but what I'd like to know is how this team would look with a new coaching staff...I get the feeling that no matter who Holland signs/trades for - we'll be in the same spot this time next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't wish to come across as a ranting lunatic, but what I'd like to know is how this team would look with a new coaching staff...I get the feeling that no matter who Holland signs/trades for - we'll be in the same spot this time next year.

The bald guy definitely has to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't wish to come across as a ranting lunatic, but what I'd like to know is how this team would look with a new coaching staff...I get the feeling that no matter who Holland signs/trades for - we'll be in the same spot this time next year.

The last two years with Babcock we barely made it into the playoffs and got owned by Boston and choked to Tampa. I think it's the players more than coaching.

If the Wings struggled with the supposed best coach in all of hockey then we can't expect them to do any better with a rookie coach. But at least with Blash we got to see Larkin, AA and Mantha get some serious opportunity.

If we make it to playoffs then Blash accomplished exactly what Babcock did with the Wings the last 2 years. If we we win round 1 he did better than Babs. If we win round 2 then.. Well I don't need to say much further- the media will.

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I figure sounds fair for our RFA's:

Marchenko $850K to $1M

Dekeyser $4.25Mish

Mrazek $3.75Mish

Pulk $850K - $1M

Sheahan $1M - $1.5M

I'd take Helm back for no more than $3M tops. Unfortunately we know Holland will give him Abby money and cripple us even more with overpaid bottom 6er's. Again, Nyquist has got to go, period. If Holland keeps the same team next season because he has no cap space, we are in for a long drought of playoff misses. I don't even know why we have the talks, we all know he is going to re-sign KFQ, Helm and possibly Ricahrds and Miller. He likes his team, amnd that's not even being sarcastic on my part, he actually likes his team. Lest we forget the Franzen return factor next season. That will be our addition.

You're starting to sound like Bill/Miller, if you hate Nyquist so much just make a thread about him and contain it in there. Nyquist/Tatar definitely are not the next euro twins, but they are still very good third line wingers. Its annoying how quickly people will just turn on a player.

In all honestly, I doubt Holland signs Qunicey, Helm, Richards or Miller. I could see him maybe signing one, but I would say the chances of all four coming back area pretty slim especially Richards.

Edited by kliq

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The last two years with Babcock we barely made it into the playoffs and got owned by Boston and choked to Tampa. I think it's the players more than coaching.

If the Wings struggled with the supposed best coach in all of hockey then we can't expect them to do any better with a rookie coach. But at least with Blash we got to see Larkin, AA and Mantha get some serious opportunity.

If we make it to playoffs then Blash accomplished exactly what Babcock did with the Wings the last 2 years. If we we win round 1 he did better than Babs. If we win round 2 then.. Well I don't need to say much further- the media will.

Then these forums will implode, basically.

You're spot on. A rookie head coach and three new faces rotating in and out of our Top 6 (AA, Mantha, Larkin). There's going to be some growing pains. If we make the playoffs this year, I think Blashill will have solidified his spot here in Detroit for many, many years.

This is what I figure sounds fair for our RFA's:

Marchenko $850K to $1M

Dekeyser $4.25Mish

Mrazek $3.75Mish

Pulk $850K - $1M

Sheahan $1M - $1.5M

I'd take Helm back for no more than $3M tops. Unfortunately we know Holland will give him Abby money and cripple us even more with overpaid bottom 6er's. Again, Nyquist has got to go, period. If Holland keeps the same team next season because he has no cap space, we are in for a long drought of playoff misses. I don't even know why we have the talks, we all know he is going to re-sign KFQ, Helm and possibly Ricahrds and Miller. He likes his team, amnd that's not even being sarcastic on my part, he actually likes his team. Lest we forget the Franzen return factor next season. That will be our addition.

Here's my issue with those numbers: In your scenario, we're also getting rid of Nyquist, E, Howard, maybe Helm and Miller...those losses put players like DK and Pulk and Sheahan into bigger roles than they currently occupy. Suddenly, DK isn't a second or third pairing defenseman - he's our #1. Pulk isn't the odd man out getting scratched most games - in your scenario he's a third line contributor or maybe even Top 6.

Which means you have to pay them accordingly. If DK stays where he is now in the lineup, then maybe $4.25M is appropriate for him. But if he's our future #1 like everyone says he is, he's getting $6M+. Similar logic applies to all the other contracts - except Mrazek, for whom I think you gave a very reasonable number - you have up there. If you're letting go three to six skaters, the rest of the guys and their agents will know that means it's pay day for them, and we're right back where I said we were in my long post - well over the cap before we even consider retained salaries or anything else.

Edited by Aethernum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll give Blashill another year before I fully judge his ability. There's got to be a massive learning curve and it was already a troubled team. I'm wondering if there's locker room issues we aren't hearing about. We do need an overhaul of the roster and replacing the assistant coaches could help, but the inconsistencies and struggles are so dramatic I wonder if there is a cause we just haven't heard about and Blashill can't contain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll give Blashill another year before I fully judge his ability. There's got to be a massive learning curve and it was already a troubled team. I'm wondering if there's locker room issues we aren't hearing about. We do need an overhaul of the roster and replacing the assistant coaches could help, but the inconsistencies and struggles are so dramatic I wonder if there is a cause we just haven't heard about and Blashill can't contain.

I would be surprised if the veterans in that locker room allowed anything like that to fester for very long. But I do wonder whether there is some hesitancy on the part of Blashill to make decisions over the heads of the vets.

You hear all the time, for example, that Datsyuk wants to play with Helm. Almost no one on these forums thinks that Helm should be on our Top 6 (I think he belongs there, but whatever...) But if I'm Blashill, even if I want Helm out of my Top 6, what am I going to do? I'm a rookie coach, and I'm going to override the explicit wish of Pavel 'effing Datsyuk? That's not really a locker room issue so much as it is a dynamic that could be hard for him as a rookie coach without credibility yet. I think as he grows into the role and becomes more comfortable - and gets farther along the learning curve - he'll be better able to deal with the mixture of youth and experience that is our roster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be surprised if the veterans in that locker room allowed anything like that to fester for very long. But I do wonder whether there is some hesitancy on the part of Blashill to make decisions over the heads of the vets.

You hear all the time, for example, that Datsyuk wants to play with Helm. Almost no one on these forums thinks that Helm should be on our Top 6 (I think he belongs there, but whatever...) But if I'm Blashill, even if I want Helm out of my Top 6, what am I going to do? I'm a rookie coach, and I'm going to override the explicit wish of Pavel 'effing Datsyuk? That's not really a locker room issue so much as it is a dynamic that could be hard for him as a rookie coach without credibility yet. I think as he grows into the role and becomes more comfortable - and gets farther along the learning curve - he'll be better able to deal with the mixture of youth and experience that is our roster.

I dont think this is true because Blash said in an interview that Pav and Z were in his office and he wanted them to play together on one line and they both said "well you need to give us time to click and not shuffle things". (Not exact words but something along those lines)

But few games later Blash shuffled the lines up a lot lol. I think it's a combo of respecting veterans opinion but also going with what coaching staff and Kenny think is best overall. At end of day what happens on ice is Blashills decision regardless of what everyone says.

But as far as Helm and Datsyuk. I think it's just a matter of Datsyuk needing a player on his line to get pucks for him- whoever it may be is Blashills choice.

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think this is true because Blash said in an interview that Pav and Z were in his office and he wanted them to play together on one line and they both said "well you need to give us time to click and not shuffle things". (Not exact words but something along those lines)

But few games later Blash shuffled the lines up a lot lol. I think it's a combo of respecting veterans opinion but also going with what coaching staff and Kenny think is best overall. At end of day what happens on ice is Blashills decision regardless of what everyone says.

But as far as Helm and Datsyuk. I think it's just a matter of Datsyuk needing a player on his line to get pucks for him- whoever it may be is Blashills choice.

Yeah, I don't mean to suggest I think that is what is going on...just that it wouldn't surprise me because that dynamic is a difficult one for any rookie coach to navigate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The hard part this off season is fixing the D. Hollands biggest challenge. We have 3 old high priced vets that are not producing making a combined 16 million, a young guy that is turning into a top pair guy in Dekeyser who is about to get 6 million per. That is 4 guys out of 7/8 making 22 million or so. We have to add another true top pair guy and they are expensive. 2 of those guys would be better. The problem becomes having half of your cap tied up in the 6 guys on the blueline. Now that cap crunch gets fixed over the next 2 years with Green leaving and Kornwall finally being able to be moved.

I know Yandle is a popular choice around here but IMHO he isn't good enough. To me he is a second pair guy not a top pair guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There really isn't a clear cut #1 guy out there to be our #1 defender then, if Yandle is consider more of a 2nd pair guy. I highly doubt we can get one via trade either.

The reason I am so hard on Nyquist is, yes he is a very serviceable 3 liner, but he's being paid to be a 2nd liner. So will Abdelkader. I am willing to give Nyquist a bounce back year next season, but if he continues the same way, he will need to be dealt with because he has a NTC that kicks in for his final 2 years.

I hope we don't resign the UFA's....if we do sign one of the four, I can deal with Helm for a nice price. I hope it doesn't go north of $3.5M. But, of course, Holland will pay him Abby money, and probably for the same term.

I just hope that Holland somehow clears about $16M in salary from the books next season (Ericsson, Nyquist, Howard?) in order to go hard after (Stamkos, Lucic, et al) and Yandle via the UFA market. If this team comes back the same (minus the 3 of the 4 UFA's) we are in deep, DEEP trouble again...we NEED Yandle on the D and we need a top line O player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we can't get a clear #1 you still sign someone who is an improvement over another player. Sign a solid #2 or 3 to replace Smith, Ericsson, Quincey and you still improve, just not as much.

Well then you go after Yandle who would clearly be our #1 guy. Not unless there's a trade out there for someone better. via UFA, we don't have much available that is better than Yandle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is where Holland needs to go out and DO something. I like Yandle as a second pair guy. The trouble is he is a UFA and is going to get paid like a top pair guy. Is Yandle really worth 8million per year? That is the area I think he will be signed at. I would much rather make strong runs at Fowler and Trouba. If Holland landed both I might drive to Detroit and kiss him! I think I am safe on that front however.....LOL

But those are the type of guys we should be going after. Guys that are close to being stars that we can control at a reasonable rate. Then come the summer of 2017 try to find another 1 or 2 Dmen. We need 3 over the next 2 summers, be it from trade, UFA or youth developing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with the offense isn't 2nd liners playing like 2nd liners. Guys like Nyquist, Abby and Tatar are fine as 2nd liners. It's the lack of 1st line forwards. I just took at look at players by points per game. It's crude, but I think illustrative. Figure that essentially the top 90 forwards in PPG in the NHL are "1st liners". If so, then the Wings have just 1 1st liner (Datsyuk, ranked 43rd). Forwards from 91-180 would be "2nd liners". The Wings have 5 of them (Z, Larkin, Tatar, Abby, Nyquist). There are 4 "3rd liners" (Richards, AA, Helm, Pulks) and 2 "4th liners" (Sheahan, Glendening).

Again, this is a super rough look at things, but the big problem is having too many 2nd fiddles and not enough guys carrying play and scoring. The solution is probably something along the lines of packaging 2 of the 2nd liners, plus other pieces, to get a "1st liner"... then hope Larkin steps up production in his 2nd year and Mantha/AA can step up to "2nd liners". Easier said than done, but if Holland can't get creative enough to do it, then the org. needs to find someone that can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is where Holland needs to go out and DO something. I like Yandle as a second pair guy. The trouble is he is a UFA and is going to get paid like a top pair guy. Is Yandle really worth 8million per year? That is the area I think he will be signed at. I would much rather make strong runs at Fowler and Trouba. If Holland landed both I might drive to Detroit and kiss him! I think I am safe on that front however.....LOL

But those are the type of guys we should be going after. Guys that are close to being stars that we can control at a reasonable rate. Then come the summer of 2017 try to find another 1 or 2 Dmen. We need 3 over the next 2 summers, be it from trade, UFA or youth developing.

I agree that Yandle may get over-valued by some around here (though the Trouba hype from some is far worse), but I doubt he will get $8M. I would guess around $6M depending on the cap and term.

We don't need 3 defensemen either. Might seem that way because we lack a real top defenseman, so we judge everyone as being not good enough. We may want to replace some for cap reasons, but I think we'd be alright without doing so. We may not even want to add more than one this summer, with expansion looming.

As far as trade targets, Vatanen or Lindholm are the most realistic options. Could be the perfect storm there, as I think they are also two of the best options rumored to be available.

The problem with the offense isn't 2nd liners playing like 2nd liners. Guys like Nyquist, Abby and Tatar are fine as 2nd liners. It's the lack of 1st line forwards. I just took at look at players by points per game. It's crude, but I think illustrative. Figure that essentially the top 90 forwards in PPG in the NHL are "1st liners". If so, then the Wings have just 1 1st liner (Datsyuk, ranked 43rd). Forwards from 91-180 would be "2nd liners". The Wings have 5 of them (Z, Larkin, Tatar, Abby, Nyquist). There are 4 "3rd liners" (Richards, AA, Helm, Pulks) and 2 "4th liners" (Sheahan, Glendening).

Again, this is a super rough look at things, but the big problem is having too many 2nd fiddles and not enough guys carrying play and scoring. The solution is probably something along the lines of packaging 2 of the 2nd liners, plus other pieces, to get a "1st liner"... then hope Larkin steps up production in his 2nd year and Mantha/AA can step up to "2nd liners". Easier said than done, but if Holland can't get creative enough to do it, then the org. needs to find someone that can.

I think that's a bit too simplistic.

First, the goal is to be a good team, so we want our 1st-liners to be above average. If you have 3 guys ranked in the 50s or 60s for your 1st line, odds are you aren't going to be very good unless your depth is exceptional. That isn't likely to be true if we trade too much of what we have. Finding top talent is difficult, and expensive. Most likely, there just isn't a deal out there. We probably need to rely on depth more than power at the top, as well as the kids taking a step forward. That means trying to figure out why most of our team took a step back this year.

Secondly, we need to concentrate on goal-scoring rather than just points. One major problem this year is that in terms of goal-scoring, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are very poor relative to the top forwards on other teams. The rest of the team, even having a poor year, is average or slightly above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with the offense isn't 2nd liners playing like 2nd liners. Guys like Nyquist, Abby and Tatar are fine as 2nd liners. It's the lack of 1st line forwards. I just took at look at players by points per game. It's crude, but I think illustrative. Figure that essentially the top 90 forwards in PPG in the NHL are "1st liners". If so, then the Wings have just 1 1st liner (Datsyuk, ranked 43rd). Forwards from 91-180 would be "2nd liners". The Wings have 5 of them (Z, Larkin, Tatar, Abby, Nyquist). There are 4 "3rd liners" (Richards, AA, Helm, Pulks) and 2 "4th liners" (Sheahan, Glendening).

Again, this is a super rough look at things, but the big problem is having too many 2nd fiddles and not enough guys carrying play and scoring. The solution is probably something along the lines of packaging 2 of the 2nd liners, plus other pieces, to get a "1st liner"... then hope Larkin steps up production in his 2nd year and Mantha/AA can step up to "2nd liners". Easier said than done, but if Holland can't get creative enough to do it, then the org. needs to find someone that can.

Of course nothing is that cut and dried, but I understand your point. On that you are correct. Not enough top line guys. There is always a debate on are you better off with 2 good players or 1 great player? If you have 2 guys (Nyquist and tatar) that combined score 40-45 goals and make 8-9 million per year is that better than having 1 guy that scores 40+ and makes the same money? The hard part is the answer changes based on your team. If your team has 3 super stars then moving one for better depth makes sense. But that isn't us atm. We lack the stars so we need to trade/sign/develop some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that Yandle may get over-valued by some around here (though the Trouba hype from some is far worse), but I doubt he will get $8M. I would guess around $6M depending on the cap and term.

We don't need 3 defensemen either. Might seem that way because we lack a real top defenseman, so we judge everyone as being not good enough. We may want to replace some for cap reasons, but I think we'd be alright without doing so. We may not even want to add more than one this summer, with expansion looming.

As far as trade targets, Vatanen or Lindholm are the most realistic options. Could be the perfect storm there, as I think they are also two of the best options rumored to be available.

I think that's a bit too simplistic.

First, the goal is to be a good team, so we want our 1st-liners to be above average. If you have 3 guys ranked in the 50s or 60s for your 1st line, odds are you aren't going to be very good unless your depth is exceptional. That isn't likely to be true if we trade too much of what we have. Finding top talent is difficult, and expensive. Most likely, there just isn't a deal out there. We probably need to rely on depth more than power at the top, as well as the kids taking a step forward. That means trying to figure out why most of our team took a step back this year.

Secondly, we need to concentrate on goal-scoring rather than just points. One major problem this year is that in terms of goal-scoring, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are very poor relative to the top forwards on other teams. The rest of the team, even having a poor year, is average or slightly above.

Buppy, Green juts got 6 mill per year last summer. Yandle is younger and another year of inflation gets added on, I would be shocked if he is under 7 million. If 2-3 teams get into a bidding war he could be 8+ easily.

Trouba is not a great Dman today, but he is also 22 and there is plenty of talent there. I think a pair of Trouba and Dekeyser could be very good in about 2 years. But of course this would require Holland to make a trade or 2.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course nothing is that cut and dried, but I understand your point. On that you are correct. Not enough top line guys. There is always a debate on are you better off with 2 good players or 1 great player? If you have 2 guys (Nyquist and tatar) that combined score 40-45 goals and make 8-9 million per year is that better than having 1 guy that scores 40+ and makes the same money? The hard part is the answer changes based on your team. If your team has 3 super stars then moving one for better depth makes sense. But that isn't us atm. We lack the stars so we need to trade/sign/develop some.

There were 3 players who scored 40 goals last year. Probably around the same this year, give or take. For the most part, those guys just aren't available. Stamkos may be (though he'll cost more than $9M I'd bet). With the young guys we have, it's worth looking into trading one of Nyquist and Tatar, but not both. At least until more of the kids actually prove something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were 3 players who scored 40 goals last year. Probably around the same this year, give or take. For the most part, those guys just aren't available. Stamkos may be (though he'll cost more than $9M I'd bet). With the young guys we have, it's worth looking into trading one of Nyquist and Tatar, but not both. At least until more of the kids actually prove something.

Just an example man. Tatar and Nyquist haven't scored 40 yet this year either. They might be just short. But the bigger point in this is guys that score 40 goals or 35 each year are the superstars that make other around them better by drawing all the attention. Guys like Nyquist and Tatar don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Buppy, Green juts got 6 mill per year last summer. Yandle is younger and another year of inflation gets added on, I would be shocked if he is under 7 million. If 2-3 teams get into a bidding war he could be 8+ easily.

Trouba is not a great Dman today, but he is also 22 and there is plenty of talent there. I think a pair of Trouba and Dekeyser could be very good in about 2 years. But of course this would require Holland to make a trade or 2.....

And Green had produced at a slightly better rate the year before. 10g, 45p in 71 games to 5g, 44p in 75 games so far this year for Yandle. Green also signed a 3 year deal. I'd assume Yandle will be looking for more. He's the same age Green was when we signed him last year.

I like Trouba and I'm sure that would be a very good pair. I'm just saying he's over-valued by some people around here.

Just an example man. Tatar and Nyquist haven't scored 40 yet this year either. They might be just short. But the bigger point in this is guys that score 40 goals or 35 each year are the superstars that make other around them better by drawing all the attention. Guys like Nyquist and Tatar don't.

Yes, and if we don't figure out why they're down this year, the same thing likely turns your 35 goal scorer into a 25 goal scorer. And making others around them better means nothing if there's no one around them that's good in the first place.

Bottom line is this. We are not going to trade/replace half the team. It's not possible. (At least not replace with something better.) No matter what we do, no matter who we add, any significant improvement has to come from players that are already here. With what we added this year, we should already be better. Instead we're just as bad 5v5, and our PP is much worse. We have added a ton to the team in the last few years, but we're losing just as much. We need to stop taking steps back. That means trying to make additions while subtracting as little as possible. That means not trading two of our best young players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that's a bit too simplistic.

First, the goal is to be a good team, so we want our 1st-liners to be above average. If you have 3 guys ranked in the 50s or 60s for your 1st line, odds are you aren't going to be very good unless your depth is exceptional. That isn't likely to be true if we trade too much of what we have. Finding top talent is difficult, and expensive. Most likely, there just isn't a deal out there. We probably need to rely on depth more than power at the top, as well as the kids taking a step forward. That means trying to figure out why most of our team took a step back this year.

Secondly, we need to concentrate on goal-scoring rather than just points. One major problem this year is that in terms of goal-scoring, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are very poor relative to the top forwards on other teams. The rest of the team, even having a poor year, is average or slightly above.

Of course it's simplistic; I said myself that it was one crude measure. The point is that the Wings don't even have 3 below average first line level players. They have only 1. Relying on depth is a myth; if you look at Cup-winning Wings teams, they all had top-level first line players (I only glanced at total points and not PPG). If a team doesn't have top-level players, depth doesn't truly exist. I think this season is bearing that out; without primary scoring, secondary scoring doesn't matter.

There isn't much of a difference goals v. points. If players are putting up points, it means someone's getting goals. If someone is scoring goals, it means others are getting points. Detroit's 3 best at PPG average a rank of 88 in the NHL (Datsyuk is 43, Z 108, and Larkin 113). Detroit's 3 best at GPG average a rank of about 82 (Larkin is 71, Datsyuk 86, and Tatar 88).

I think the Wings have shown a good propensity to find 2nd line level players. I would be very willing to give up some of those for higher-end talent. With extra playing and power play time, the Wings have guys that would probably step up to produce sufficiently at the 2nd and 3rd line levels, especially next season. But of course, it is easier said that done, as there has to be a team willing to give up higher-end talent for more depth.

Of course nothing is that cut and dried, but I understand your point. On that you are correct. Not enough top line guys. There is always a debate on are you better off with 2 good players or 1 great player? If you have 2 guys (Nyquist and tatar) that combined score 40-45 goals and make 8-9 million per year is that better than having 1 guy that scores 40+ and makes the same money? The hard part is the answer changes based on your team. If your team has 3 super stars then moving one for better depth makes sense. But that isn't us atm. We lack the stars so we need to trade/sign/develop some.

The thing to keep in mind is that it isn't just looking at goals by 1 new player v 2 others. Chances are there will be another player or two that come up with more goals now that they get more ice and PP time with the other 2 secondary scorers away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now