Red Wings sign D Trevor Daley to 3 year, 3.166m/yr contract, includes NTC/Modified NTC.

[Dabura 12,232]

1 hour ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

Why the f*** would they give him an NTC?

That's the price you pay for a good UFA these days, standard business practice. Holland isn't the only GM who hands them out.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Dabura

[jaymac17 10]

And when they signed him in 2014 he was a big solid defender who'd come up in the system and was a big part of the future core...they didn't see how closely his growth and good years were tied to playing with kronwall in his prime and how severely kronwall's breakdown would contribute to ericson's decline. However, he can still be a positive 4,5,6 on a team in the NHL that's why I'd love to trade and get something for him after this year. I think a 6'5" established defender with 2 yrs on his deal would be appealing to several teams given the current market especially if we retain some salary...maybe a 3rd round pick and mid prospect

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[kickazz 5,459]

10 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Never once said the signing was great for the team... 

Lol we both know you're covering up your argument with semantics now. 

10 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, kind of the way you're stating Sproul not being an offensive defenseman as fact.

Also, regarding Smith and Jurco. I always said Smith will develop into a top 4 defenseman. He has. Fact. I stand by the fact that I believe Jurco was mishandled in Detroit. Maybe he'd be a different player today if his development was handled differently. Maybe not. At this point, I could care less. I never once stated any of those opinions as fact, but whatever. 

Hey kickazz, grass is green.

Based of the info that was given in the thread about Sproul, yeah he's not really an NHL caliber offensive defenseman. You can hope for it sure but it's not looking like he is compared to some of his own teammates. 

Far as Smith, you praised him for his offensive prowess. Guy can't even score 20 points. Fact. 

Far as Jurco, you just make excuses for him, He sucks. Get over it dude. Is Jurco a toddler? He can't carry his own skills and weight? Blame the Red Wings for him sucking? That's ridiculous. 

I'm 120% sure you're going to blame the Red Wings for "mishandling" Sproul if it turns out Sproul sucks too. Guy is a 24 year old grown man and somehow it's going to end up being the organizations fault. We'll look back at it years from now... "Yeah guys that Daley signing ruined Sproul". 

Edited July 6, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

10 hours ago, toby91_ca said:

In my opinion, I don't think the signing really does much to move the team forward.  I don't think it hurts any forward progression, but I don't think it helps either.  He'll make the team better this year, but I don't think that should really be the focus, the team won't be good enough to compete for the Cup in the next few years, so making the team better right away won't really do much because you can't make the team that much better.

Just my opinion and I could be totally wrong....you never know, sometimes teams ramp up very, very quickly and then fall really quickly because they can't keep the team together.

Oh my god, we actually have someone who thinks the alternative is possible and is open to it. Woohooo!

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

If Sproul was traded it wouldn't bother me a bit, just like it didn't when Jurco was traded. So don't give me that "pet prospect" bulls***. You can say all you want that I'm "creating a false dilemma", but my opinion is that if we're trying to build for the future, we shouldn't have signed more veterans. Signing more players, whether it was Daley or some other vet, does take a spot from one of the kids, directly or indirectly. That is a fact, unless of course Holland makes a trade (not going to happen), or Blashill scratches Ericsson or Kronwall (not going to happen). I'd prefer to develop Sproul into a top 4, power-play quarterback, that can be a part of our future, than sign any vet that won't be part of the future. Again, my opinion. I'm going to cheer just as loudly as the next guy for Daley while he wears the Winged Wheel, but it's just not a signing I would have made. Why does that bother you so much?

Newsflash. He is part of our future. For the next 3 years. And if he signs an extension after that it could be until his retirement. The Daley signing isn't like a 6 month lease or something. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by kickazz

[jaymac17 10]

Jurco and pulkinnen both are not quality nhlers they had opportunity to prove themselves and could not. Instead they proved they were soft against nhl men, not skilled enough to create their own chances and not talented enough to consistently get their shots through...red wings had nothing to do with that...AA and Mantha and Jensen and Ouellette etc had the same opportunities and time to grow in G.R. and proved themselves...all I remember from teemu and jurco is them sitting at the face off dot slowly winding up for a shot right into the opponents legs and turning over possession.

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[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Lol we both know you're covering up your argument with semantics now. 

Based of the info that was given in the thread about Sproul, yeah he's not really an NHL caliber offensive defenseman. You can hope for it sure but it's not looking like he is compared to some of his own teammates. 

Far as Smith, you praised him for his offensive prowess. Guy can't even score 20 points. Fact. 

Far as Jurco, you just make excuses for him, He sucks. Get over it dude. Is Jurco a toddler? He can't carry his own skills and weight? Blame the Red Wings for him sucking? That's ridiculous. 

I'm 120% sure you're going to blame the Red Wings for "mishandling" Sproul if it turns out Sproul sucks too. Guy is a 24 year old grown man and somehow it's going to end up being the organizations fault. We'll look back at it years from now... "Yeah guys that Daley signing ruined Sproul". 

I'm not covering anything up. I never once said anything about this being a good signing for this team.

You said Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman, now you're back peddling, saying that he hasn't proven he can be at the NHL level yet. Well no s***, he's played 28 f***ing games. Not every defenseman jumps in and immediately lights the league on fire.

I did praise Smith for his offensive potential. It didn't materialize in the NHL like I thought it would. What's your point? Is it that difficult for you to fathom that players do get mishandled and never recover from it? Happens all the time in professional sport. Like I said, I'm not saying for certain that happened to Jurco, just like you can't say it didn't. 

Why does it bother you so much if I do think Sproul is / will be mishandled? I think a number of our players have been over the years. Some can overcome it. Some can't. I hope Sproul can.

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Newsflash. He is part of our future. For the next 3 years. And if he signs an extension after that it could be until his retirement. The Daley signing isn't like a 6 month lease or something. 

Newsflash. We won't be contenders for the next 3 years (aka duration of Daley's contract).

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

5 hours ago, Dabura said:

That's the price you pay for a good UFA these days, standard business practice. Holland isn't the only GM who hands them out.

So dumb though with the direction this team should be heading and what their current situation is. Don't they already have their entire top 4 with some sort of NTC/NMC?

I'm pretty sure that they do which makes extremely difficult to make good long term moves due to financial restrictions as well as roster size and what you can and can't move. I get why players want NTC/NMC but there should be a max of like 3 players that get one on any team, otherwise you end up ******* yourself over when you have zero assets to leverage in trade negotiations.

[jaymac17 10]

So dumb though with the direction this team should be heading and what their current situation is. Don't they already have their entire top 4 with some sort of NTC/NMC?
I'm pretty sure that they do which makes extremely difficult to make good long term moves due to financial restrictions as well as roster size and what you can and can't move. I get why players want NTC/NMC but there should be a max of like 3 players that get one on any team, otherwise you end up ******* yourself over when you have zero assets to leverage in trade negotiations.

I don't believe daley has ntc

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[kliq 3,763]

34 minutes ago, jaymac17 said:

I don't believe daley has ntc

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk
 

According to Capfriendly.com he does not have a NMC or a NTC, and it says the contract is confirmed. 

Craig Custance did report that Daley has a full no-trade clause for the first two years and a modified no-trade in the final year, but based on CF, this appears to be wrong.

[Dabura 12,232]

3 hours ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

So dumb though with the direction this team should be heading and what their current situation is. Don't they already have their entire top 4 with some sort of NTC/NMC?

I'm pretty sure that they do which makes extremely difficult to make good long term moves due to financial restrictions as well as roster size and what you can and can't move. I get why players want NTC/NMC but there should be a max of like 3 players that get one on any team, otherwise you end up ******* yourself over when you have zero assets to leverage in trade negotiations.

Ideally, you don't give anyone an NTC or an NMC. I'm just saying the reality is that these are handed out with regularity, right or wrong, for better or for worse.

If it's true that Holland didn't give Daley an NTC...well, I like the signing even more.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 hours ago, kickazz said:

Lol we both know you're covering up your argument with semantics now. 

Based of the info that was given in the thread about Sproul, yeah he's not really an NHL caliber offensive defenseman. You can hope for it sure but it's not looking like he is compared to some of his own teammates. 

Far as Smith, you praised him for his offensive prowess. Guy can't even score 20 points. Fact. 

Far as Jurco, you just make excuses for him, He sucks. Get over it dude. Is Jurco a toddler? He can't carry his own skills and weight? Blame the Red Wings for him sucking? That's ridiculous. 

I'm 120% sure you're going to blame the Red Wings for "mishandling" Sproul if it turns out Sproul sucks too. Guy is a 24 year old grown man and somehow it's going to end up being the organizations fault. We'll look back at it years from now... "Yeah guys that Daley signing ruined Sproul". 

 

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not covering anything up. I never once said anything about this being a good signing for this team.

You said Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman, now you're back peddling, saying that he hasn't proven he can be at the NHL level yet. Well no s***, he's played 28 f***ing games. Not every defenseman jumps in and immediately lights the league on fire.

I did praise Smith for his offensive potential. It didn't materialize in the NHL like I thought it would. What's your point? Is it that difficult for you to fathom that players do get mishandled and never recover from it? Happens all the time in professional sport. Like I said, I'm not saying for certain that happened to Jurco, just like you can't say it didn't. 

Why does it bother you so much if I do think Sproul is / will be mishandled? I think a number of our players have been over the years. Some can overcome it. Some can't. I hope Sproul can.

Newsflash. We won't be contenders for the next 3 years (aka duration of Daley's contract).

I think this all wrongly based on the assumption that Sproul is the odd man out

Signing Daley =/= Sproul not playing

For the first time in 25+ years this team is altering its course. I really don't think it will be the same old veteran boy gets the advantage type deal at camp this year. The core of this team, besides Zetterberg, utterly lost way its way last season. I think jobs/spots on this team will be much more available than in previous years. And I think it will be Sprouls, XOs, Jensens, Russos, and even Mcilraths job to beat out Ericsson, Kronwall, and each other for spots this fall. For all we know Sproul and Mcilrath make the team, and XO and Jensen or even Ericsson are left riding pine or waived. I think that's way more possible than people realize. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

I think this all wrongly based on the assumption that Sproul is the odd man out

Signing Daley =/= Sproul not playing

For the first time in 25+ years this team is altering its course. I really don't think it will be the same old veteran boy gets the advantage type deal at camp this year. The core of this team, besides Zetterberg, utterly lost way its way last season. I think jobs/spots on this team will be much more available than in previous years. And I think it will be Sprouls, XOs, Jensens, Russos, and even Mcilraths job to beat out Ericsson, Kronwall, and each other for spots this fall. For all we know Sproul and Mcilrath make the team, and XO and Jensen or even Ericsson are left riding pine or waived. I think that's way more possible than people realize. 

I hope you're right. I just don't want to see any of the young guys treated differently than the vets. Whether that's Sproul / Ericsson or Athanasiou / Sheahan or whoever else.

[jaymac17 10]

I hope you're right. I just don't want to see any of the young guys treated differently than the vets. Whether that's Sproul / Ericsson or Athanasiou / Sheahan or whoever else.

Ouellette and Jensen, even dk for that matter are part of the "young guys" they've just proven themselves as nhl regulars. We do have several "young guys" that have made the most of their opportunity/audition. Nhl does not universally = old, washed up, overpaid and ahl does not universally= mistreated wasted nhl talent. Sproul made the team out of camp last year and Jensen didn't get his shot until the 3rd week of December so Sproul has definitely had opportunity to make himself stick. You can't tell me any nhl team is not going to bend over backwards to make a 6'4", righty dman with "rocket shot" work out for them...he just hasn't grabbed it and he's not gonna be ready to start the year. Would I like to see him get another long look this year? Yes! But at kronwall's expense not Ouellette or Jensens. They have succeeded in the same situation that Sproul has thus far not don't penalize them for it...that would be asset mismanagement.

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[Keep Your Stick On the Ice 67]

I'm a fan of anything and anybody that potentially improves the defense system

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I'm not bothered by the NTC/MTC. In a 3 year deal, the most likely situation for us trading him is in the 3rd year at the deadline. That's when the MTC kicks in and I'm sure the conditions are for him to okay the team and he would be going to a contender so I wouldn't see any problems.

The NTCs on longterm deals are more of a problem. 

[kickazz 5,459]

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You said Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman, now you're back peddling, saying that he hasn't proven he can be at the NHL level yet. Well no s***, he's played 28 f***ing games. Not every defenseman jumps in and immediately lights the league on fire.

I didn't packpeddle lol. For some reason both you and Toby were assuming that we (Buppy and I) were talking about juniors and minors.(maybe he was at some point, I can't speak for him). Buppy gave some stats out and I merely interpreted it my way. Look at my exact quote below. . This was my original post yesterday early in the AM. Hell I even gave you a wild analogy of Superman (mostly because I wanted to be random). Have you forgotten? I said specifically that just because someone might have been labeled as a Superman/superhuman at a younger age because he lifted more than his peers, but failed to replicate that as he got older; I.E his peers ended up catching up to him or surpassing him; does that still label that individual as a superman/superhuman? I.E just because Sproul was an "offensive defenseman" in juniors, as compared to his peers, does it still mean he is one currently if he isn't actually producing like one? According to the stats that we're shown, he was inferior to XO on 5 on 5 scoring in past year. 

Posted yesterday at 08:56 AM (edited) · Report post

  On 7/5/2017 at 6:53 AM, krsmith17 said:

How well (or poorly) a player plays doesn't determine his style of play. There are offensive defensemen, defensive defensemen, and two-way defensemen. Sproul IS an offensive defensemen. 

That is such a poor way if debating. It makes no sense at all dude. That's like saying "I'm superman" but then not being able to lift even half my body weight. Wtf? Does that sill make me superman?? Just because I gave myself that title?? 

If, as Buppy pointed out, Sproul really isn't producing as an offensive defenseman, or playing like one. Then he's obviously failing to fullfil that title...

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I did praise Smith for his offensive potential. It didn't materialize in the NHL like I thought it would. What's your point? 

My point is exactly what I said pages ago. People push their opinions as if they are facts. For years you and Billy boy (and a lot of fans in general) called Smith an offensive defenseman. Factually speaking he can't even produce 20 points. Not much of an offensive defenseman when you don't actually produce any offense. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Why does it bother you so much if I do think Sproul is / will be mishandled? I think a number of our players have been over the years. Some can overcome it. Some can't. I hope Sproul can.

Because I am predicting that you will most likely will have a false premise that Sproul was mishandled because of Daley being signed. When in reality the Daley signing has nothing to do with Sproul's development. Sproul's development didn't start in 2017/18. It started years ago. He should be mostly "developed" and ready by now. May need more experience to get acclimated to the NHL level like anyone does. But they Daley signing has nothing to do with how he's handled. If Sproul is good enough to be in the NHL, he will be in the NHL. If he's not he won't. 

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Newsflash. We won't be contenders for the next 3 years (aka duration of Daley's contract).

Again, spewing out opinion as if it's facts. According to Ken Holland we very well can be contenders THIS YEAR. That's why he's signing guys like Daley. He wants us to make the playoffs. And if you're in the playoffs you are a contender.

Is Holland right? I don't know. But to say we won't be contenders for the next 3 years? Where do you get that from? Show me the psychic powers bro I sure as hell need it to find out if all this pollution in Detroit is going to give me cancer. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

I think this all wrongly based on the assumption that Sproul is the odd man out

Signing Daley =/= Sproul not playing

For the first time in 25+ years this team is altering its course. I really don't think it will be the same old veteran boy gets the advantage type deal at camp this year. The core of this team, besides Zetterberg, utterly lost way its way last season. I think jobs/spots on this team will be much more available than in previous years. And I think it will be Sprouls, XOs, Jensens, Russos, and even Mcilraths job to beat out Ericsson, Kronwall, and each other for spots this fall. For all we know Sproul and Mcilrath make the team, and XO and Jensen or even Ericsson are left riding pine or waived. I think that's way more possible than people realize. 

Exactly. If you are good enough to be on the team, you will be. Regardless of who you are. Larkin, Mantha and AA are all "kids" that made it. Miller got dumped in GR. Ferraro said bye bye, Andersson moved on. Hell even Cleary got the boot. 

Ericsson and Kronwall even played on the third pairing at many points this year! Kronwall eventually was bumped back up because he actually started playing well. Have people forgotten these facts? Our own veterans we're demoted in favor of the younger players. Of course people would like Ericsson to be scratched, but that's another bump that Blashill has to face. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

You (and Buppy) specifically said that Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman. What is he then? Certainly not a defensive defenseman, nor a two-way. Definitely not an enforcer... What the hell is he? At this point in his career he is an offensive defenseman, a great one in junior, a good one in the AHL, and yet to be determined in the NHL. How well a player plays, does not determine his "style" of play. I would consider Ericsson a defensive defenseman. Not a great one, but one nonetheless. The fact that you're still arguing that is absurd. Your superman analogy is too dumb to get into.

Smith WAS an offensive defenseman coming into the league. He never did develop the way we had hoped (maybe Sproul never will either), so he had to work on his defensive game and mold himself into more of a two-way defenseman. Maybe the same will happen with Sproul, or maybe he'll continue being an offensive defenseman as a career AHLer.

You can predict all you want. If I believe Sproul is being mishandled, I will speak my opinion on that (I know that will bother you...). However, I will never blame Daley for it, just like I never blamed Vanek or anyone else for the way Jurco was handled here.

Like marcaractic said yesterday, "Do you need people to spell it out for you that everything they say is their opinion? Are we not all adult enough to infer that already?" Obviously me saying we won't be contenders in the next 3 years is my opinion. An opinion that most would agree with. Let's ask the most optimistic Red Wings fans if they think we will be Cup contenders in the next 3 years. I bet you'd get 95% say "No"... By the way, I'm not stating that number as fact... just so you know...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You (and Buppy) specifically said that Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman. What is he then? Certainly not a defensive defenseman, nor a two-way. Definitely not an enforcer... What the hell is he? At this point in his career he is an offensive defenseman, a great one in junior, a good one in the AHL, and yet to be determined in the NHL. How well a player plays, does not determine his "style" of play. I would consider Ericsson a defensive defenseman. Not a great one, but one nonetheless. The fact that you're still arguing that is absurd. Your superman analogy is too dumb to get into.

Smith WAS an offensive defenseman coming into the league. He never did develop the way we had hoped (maybe Sproul never will either), so he had to work on his defensive game and mold himself into more of a two-way defenseman. Maybe the same will happen with Sproul, or maybe he'll continue being an offensive defenseman as a career AHLer.

You can predict all you want. If I believe Sproul is being mishandled, I will speak my opinion on that (I know that will bother you...). However, I will never blame Daley for it, just like I never blamed Vanek or anyone else for the way Jurco was handled here.

Like marcaractic said yesterday, "Do you need people to spell it out for you that everything they say is their opinion? Are we not all adult enough to infer that already?" Obviously me saying we won't be contenders in the next 3 years is my opinion. An opinion that most would agree with. Let's ask the most optimistic Red Wings fans if they think we will be Cup contenders in the next 3 years. I bet you'd get 95% say "No"... By the way, I'm not stating that number as fact... just so you know...

We will be cup contenders in the next 3 years

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We will be cup contenders in the next 3 years

Haha fair enough. I hope you're right. I have to ask though, since you didn't really clarify, is that opinion or fact? 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Haha fair enough. I hope you're right. I have to ask though, since you didn't really clarify, is that opinion or fact? 

It is

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

14 hours ago, Dabura said:

Ideally, you don't give anyone an NTC or an NMC. I'm just saying the reality is that these are handed out with regularity, right or wrong, for better or for worse.

If it's true that Holland didn't give Daley an NTC...well, I like the signing even more.

I mean, of course it's a reality but there's a lot of "traditional" things that GMs do today including NTCs but that doesn't mean it's smart.

In this case, I think it's magnified because the majority of our D currently has some sort of NTC which makes trading a *****.

[jaymac17 10]

It is

"Just gotta get in...then anything can happen" -Ken...im somewhat joking but I actually don't really disagree with this. Last year in the west we had eventual Champs down 3-1 in 2nd round.

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[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I love CRLs optimism. I wish I was on the same side. Let's hope I'm wrong.