Red Wings sign D Trevor Daley to 3 year, 3.166m/yr contract, includes NTC/Modified NTC.

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, joesuffP said:

Lmao we don't even have young defensemen to play for us. Literally nobody in the system is being held back because of this signing. This conversation just goes in circles with people bashing Holland for what he may hypothetically do.

The rebuild on the fly is happening whether you like it or not. Complaining about a stop gap defensmen that's cheap is such a minuscule problem in the grand scheme of things it's ridiculous this can cause such outrage for so long

People are in MAJOR denial. "He's not doing the rebuild correctly" , "Signing Daley is stupid if we want a top 3 pick", "Signing Daley screws Sproul over"

People need to snap back to reality. There is no rebuild, Holland is not looking to tank (any type of variation), he's aiming for playoffs while maintaining picks, and he certainly does not consider the young defensemen to have the ceiling that some of the posters here do. 

People here act like they know more than pro-scouts, GMs, coaches. Except that most people here are average joes working regular jobs while the people who made it are running the team. Why? Because they are better than any of us at their job, that's way they made it up there and that's why we're down here behind our keyboards, monitors and a 12 oz pepsi bottle thats flat.

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by kickazz

[frankgrimes 1,836]

People are in MAJOR denial. "He's not doing the rebuild correctly" , "Signing Daley is stupid if we want a top 3 pick", "Signing Daley screws Sproul over"
People need to snap back to reality. There is no rebuild, Holland is not looking to tank (any type of variation), he's aiming for playoffs while maintaining picks, and he certainly does not consider the young defensemen to have the ceiling that some of the posters here do. 
People here act like they know more than pro-scouts, GMs, coaches. Except that most people here are average joes working regular jobs while the people who made it are running the team. Why? Because they are better than any of us at their job, that's way they made it up there and that's why we're down here behind our keyboards, monitors and a 12 oz pepsi bottle thats flat.
 

Do you honestly believe anything we discuss here is going to impact the organization? If so I really don't know what to say.

Fact is WE as fans don't matter, even if players and owners are saying otherwise because in the end even in Detroit the bottom line seems more important than everything.

Personally I've accepted reality and gone into a whatever state, to me the real rebuild will start next year, hopefully with Rasmus Dahlien or that that big Russian kid.

Looking at it this way is way better than getting worked up over ufa, non trades like last year

[LeftWinger 4,961]

"The rebuild will start next year" was said last year too. There is no rebuild. He already said he expects AA, Larkin and Mantha to take over the team like Z and Dats did after Steve and Shanahan.

Also, if he didn't do a thing July 1, everyone would be just as mad at him.

[joesuffP 1,746]

5 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

 

 

Do you honestly believe anything we discuss here is going to impact the organization? If so I really don't know what to say.

Fact is WE as fans don't matter, even if players and owners are saying otherwise because in the end even in Detroit the bottom line seems more important than everything.

Personally I've accepted reality and gone into a whatever state, to me the real rebuild will start next year, hopefully with Rasmus Dahlien or that that big Russian kid.

Looking at it this way is way better than getting worked up over ufa, non trades like last year

 

 

Ya why get this worked up for this of all things. I'm at least giving Holland the chance to see if he fails before I start freaking out about every minor move. The players with any kind of potential are in their first and second years and no serious defense prospects have even played an NHL game yet

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, kickazz said:

People are in MAJOR denial. "He's not doing the rebuild correctly" , "Signing Daley is stupid if we want a top 3 pick", "Signing Daley screws Sproul over"

People need to snap back to reality. There is no rebuild, Holland is not looking to tank (any type of variation), he's aiming for playoffs while maintaining picks, and he certainly does not consider the young defensemen to have the ceiling that some of the posters here do. 

People here act like they know more than pro-scouts, GMs, coaches. Except that most people here are average joes working regular jobs while the people who made it are running the team. Why? Because they are better than any of us at their job, that's way they made it up there and that's why we're down here behind our keyboards, monitors and a 12 oz pepsi bottle thats flat.

 

I wouldn't say people are in denial. No one is saying that we ARE rebuilding, just that we SHOULD be rebuilding. Everyone should know though that because these guys are professionals (GM's, coaches, scouts) they never make mistakes. I mean who are we to question anything they ever do? Shut down the board folks, stop expressing your opinions, because Ken Holland is always right. We should never disagree with the way he manages this team. Rasmussen, awesome selection. Daley, awesome signing. We don't need to make trades to upgrade this team. We should keep signing vets because the young guys aren't good enough. Keep trying to squeak into the playoffs because anything can happen. In Holland we trust...

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

47 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't say people are in denial. No one is saying that we ARE rebuilding, just that we SHOULD be rebuilding. Everyone should know though that because these guys are professionals (GM's, coaches, scouts) they never make mistakes. I mean who are we to question anything they ever do? Shut down the board folks, stop expressing your opinions, because Ken Holland is always right. We should never disagree with the way he manages this team. Rasmussen, awesome selection. Daley, awesome signing. We don't need to make trades to upgrade this team. We should keep signing vets because the young guys aren't good enough. Keep trying to squeak into the playoffs because anything can happen. In Holland we trust...

Never understood the "they are professionals, what do you know as a fan" mentality. Sometimes these guys get so buried in the details they never see the big picture as a fan does. I get there is a process and these kids need to mature where they can spend minutes on the ice growing but the Wings and Holland are in a rut where its groundhog day every year and this great franchise seems complacent with the whole dance. Sometimes a change is a good thing and we have needed one for some time now. New perspective, new views and a fresh start, maybe make a trade or two.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

If you listen to that hour long interview, when he talks about Vanek probably not coming back, he specifically says it's because doesn't want to take icetime away from young players like AA, Mantha, etc. So he is thinking about the consideration of blocking young players and that reflects what I think is the right mindset. 

With this deal, he must not think it's blocking the future defensemen. One way to read this difference is that we don't have anyone on D in the same situation as AA/Mantha. He might just not be optimistic about Sproul either for injuries concerns or maybe due to his rough patches in GR when he a was healthy scratch. Though I really like Sproul, he definitely isn't a sure thing as a player and has had some setbacks, so I would understand not being all in on him. Sproul really is the only one who might get short changed by the addition in my view.

The other way to read the difference is considering the questionable status of Kronwall, E, Sproul due to injury. When asked about whether Kronwall would be ready and playing a lot this year, he said he didn't think even Kronwall knew that. Regardless of whether he's ready at the beginning of the year, I think it's pretty certain that he will miss a fair amount of time. And I'm sure other will be as well. If people remember, we started last year with 8 Dmen just like this year, and yet all of the new Dmen, Sproul, Jensen, Russo did get a good chunk of games. Jensen grabbed his opportunity and now seems a part of the regulars - this will have to be case for young guys. And even with the 9 D getting significant games, we still saw Renouf and Lashoff on call ups. So I'm not really concerned about Sproul getting a chunk of games. He was already the 7th dman so it's not like he was going to get every game before this signing.

So I'm on board. The biggest reason I'm on board is because I think having a better d corps - and specifically a 2 way puck moving guy - will help the team and help developing the offensive games of young players as well. How often did we hear complaining about offensive guys forced to play defensive style. I think to a certain extent, that's just the way you have to play in the NHL, but I also think we were forcing forwards to compensate for the weak D a lot. If we have D who can get the transition game working as it should I think it'd be huge for us and would allow these guys to focus on offence more.

If Sproul or Oulette are somehow pushed out due to this signing, I might change my mind, but that my thinking on it now.

Edited July 4, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't say people are in denial. No one is saying that we ARE rebuilding, just that we SHOULD be rebuilding. Everyone should know though that because these guys are professionals (GM's, coaches, scouts) they never make mistakes. I mean who are we to question anything they ever do? Shut down the board folks, stop expressing your opinions, because Ken Holland is always right. We should never disagree with the way he manages this team. Rasmussen, awesome selection. Daley, awesome signing. We don't need to make trades to upgrade this team. We should keep signing vets because the young guys aren't good enough. Keep trying to squeak into the playoffs because anything can happen. In Holland we trust...

I'm not saying Holland is right or wrong. What I am saying is people here think that they are ONLY right and know better than management of the Red Wings (including Holland, scouts, etc)

But that's expected, that's what happens to a former successful franchise spoiled fanbase when they start seeing adversity; people become toxic and negative in every single way. Honestly, it's sad to watch. 

[kickazz 5,459]

4 hours ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

Never understood the "they are professionals, what do you know as a fan" mentality. Sometimes these guys get so buried in the details they never see the big picture as a fan does. I get there is a process and these kids need to mature where they can spend minutes on the ice growing but the Wings and Holland are in a rut where its groundhog day every year and this great franchise seems complacent with the whole dance. Sometimes a change is a good thing and we have needed one for some time now. New perspective, new views and a fresh start, maybe make a trade or two.

That is complete and utter bulls***. To think these guys, who do this job for a living don't see "the big picture". How many interviews do Holland, Blashill have to do where they talk about the godam big picture. The guy spent a godam one hour on July 1st in an interview talking about the stupid big picture to fans; but people are deaf ears because they refuse to listen. 

For the record, I'm not a Blashill fan and I don't agree with all of Holland's approach. 

New perpective, new views, fresh start, trade or two. Such superficial words. First of all, people wanted Babcock gone "because of his stale voice". 2 years later, that's not good enough. Holland changes his view from keeping kids in GR till they're 23+ years old to bringing up Larkin when he's 19, Mantha when he's 20 and Svech when he's 19. Apparently not good enough. Holland makes deadline aquisitions with Cole and Zidlicky, everyone is happy, but then Tampa beats us and then everyone says the aquisitions were terrible. Then, Holland trades players at deadline to get picks this past season, literally something he hasn't done like ever and apparently still not good enough.

For pete's sake the guy is actively trying to draft bigger players and offensive defenseman. That's a miracle. After years of the Red Wings been called "soft", "too small", and been criticized for forcing offensive defenseman play too defensively, this GM goes and does the complete opposite in the draft of 2017. If these two things don't strike people as a significant change in view, then holy cow. This guy just signed a literal goon to a 2 year contract (Witkowski). So much of the philsophy has changed since Lidstrom left, it's scary. For years we stayed away from big players, powerfowards.  

The views have changed. Trades have happened, perspective has changed. For better or for worse, I don't know. But they have. 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by kickazz

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

8 minutes ago, kickazz said:

That is complete and utter bulls***. To think these guys, who do this job for a living don't see "the big picture". How many interviews do Holland, Blashill have to do where they talk about the godam big picture. The guy spent a godam one hour on July 1st in an interview talking about the stupid big picture to fans; but people are deaf ears because they refuse to listen. 

For the record, I'm not a Blashill fan and I don't agree with all of Holland's approach. 

New perpective, new views, fresh start, trade or two. Such superficial words. First of all, people wanted Babcock gone "because of his stale voice". 2 years later, that's not good enough. Holland changes his view from keeping kids in GR till they're 23+ years old to bringing up Larkin when he's 19, Mantha when he's 20 and Svech when he's 19. Apparently not good enough. Holland makes deadline aquisitions with Cole and Zidlicky, everyone is happy, but then Tampa beats us and then everyone says the aquisitions were terrible. Then, Holland trades players at deadline to get picks this past season, literally something he hasn't done like ever and apparently still not good enough.

The views have changed. Traded have happened, perspective has changed. For better or for worse, I don't know. But they have. 

 

They had a real struggle wondering if Larkin should make the team and sat AA because he hadn't earned playing time. I'm a know nothing fan and struggle to catch every other game and even I can laugh at their decisions. We've needed a big trade for years and never happens, if you're happy congrats, enjoy mediocrity.

[kickazz 5,459]

6 minutes ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

They had a real struggle wondering if Larkin should make the team and sat AA because he hadn't earned playing time. I'm a know nothing fan and struggle to catch every other game and even I can laugh at their decisions. We've needed a big trade for years and never happens, if you're happy congrats, enjoy mediocrity.

Hahah. Ok Larkin played full seasons since he became a pro. When was the last time a Red Wing 19 year old played? 

And say what you want about AA, he's played in the NHL. He had more of a transition than Larkin did and that's okay. Not everyone grabs the spot like Larkin did. 

And what big trade do you want oh wise LGW GM? Do tell us how you would specifically pull it off, what assets you would give up and for who? Throwing out generic statements such as "a big trade needs to happen" isn't very convincing. Big trades rarely happen in this league anymore. Everybody wants a defenseman. Supply and demand is a problem in the NHL.

Edited July 4, 2017 by kickazz

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

12 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Hahah. Ok Larkin played full seasons since he became a pro. When was the last time a Red Wing 19 year old played? 

And say what you want about AA, he's played in the NHL. He had more of a transition than Larkin did and that's okay. Not everyone grabs the spot like Larkin did. 

And what big trade do you want oh wise LGW GM? Do tell us how you would specifically pull it off, what assets you would give up and for who? Throwing out generic statements such as "a big trade needs to happen" isn't very convincing. Big trades rarely happen in this league anymore. Everybody wants a defenseman. Supply and demand is a problem in the NHL.

I don't care how old Larkin was the point is the supposed "experts" the "professionals" struggled on if he should make the roster...really? My point with AA was he has been ready, is ready and the nights he was a healthy scratch in place of guys like Sheahan is a joke. When you struggle to make easy calls it puts everything you do as an organization under greater scrutiny.

Its been 5 years since Nick left our team and in that time we still don't skate a defenseman in the top 50 talent wise in the NHL. We as a group fight over Mrazek/Howard when in fact neither one is worth a damn, and I continually see Defensemen on the trade block while we sit hamstrung by the incompetent contracts the "experts" hand out. I'm sure we'll continue down this path and sign Tatar to a long term obnoxious deal when we should be trading him as well.

 

[kickazz 5,459]

21 minutes ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

I don't care how old Larkin was the point is the supposed "experts" the "professionals" struggled on if he should make the roster...really? My point with AA was he has been ready, is ready and the nights he was a healthy scratch in place of guys like Sheahan is a joke. When you struggle to make easy calls it puts everything you do as an organization under greater scrutiny.

Its been 5 years since Nick left our team and in that time we still don't skate a defenseman in the top 50 talent wise in the NHL. We as a group fight over Mrazek/Howard when in fact neither one is worth a damn, and I continually see Defensemen on the trade block while we sit hamstrung by the incompetent contracts the "experts" hand out. I'm sure we'll continue down this path and sign Tatar to a long term obnoxious deal when we should be trading him as well.

 

Lol what? Who struggled on whether Larkin could make the roster?? He played at UM for one year, then became a pro, played in the Griffins playoffs and then went to training camp that summer, showed that he was a good player and he made the roster immediately. Wasn't even a healthy scratch once. There was no debate at all lol. He became a pro and immediately made the Red Wings. I don't even think you know what you are talking about. Larkin had zero issues making the Red Wings and it was never questioned. 

AA played 64 games last year. 37 before that. He's slowly earned his full time position. Blashill scratched him for being irresponsible on ice. Which is true, he is a bit of a floater. But actually improved upon that towards the end of the season. If you actually watch him play you can see his transition. Hell even I would scratch him for floating around as much as he did at some points of the game. But obviously being scratched helped. He's become better because of it. Additionally, Blashill actually sets AA for success. At one point he gave him some of those most sheltered minutes. 

As far as not having a defenseman since Lidstrom left. You act as though we're not actively seeking defenseman. We are. We've made pitches to the few defenseman to come here. But they chose other places. On the other hand most defenseman stay with the team they started off with (Cam Fowler just signed a lucrative deal to stay with Anaheim). And which defenseman on the trade block do you see "continually"? You're acting like there's all these D-men out there. Seriously name some. I'm interested to see all the ones we supposedly missed out on. 

Finally, Mrazek/Howard aren't worth a dam? Then what's your solution? Bring in Carey Price? Quick? Or bring back Hasek out of retirement? 

This is the exact problem. Lots of talk, whining, but no real volume or justification. 

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I honestly would rather see you GM this team, kickazz.  You may be wrong sometimes, but at least you would do SOMETHING.

I'd hire you as my coach. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by kickazz

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

I agree with the scratches. Sitting AA for "educational reasons" might've been Blashs best idea of the whole season. Because he got  the result he wanted, AA learned his lesson.

[Echolalia 2,961]

nm

Edited July 4, 2017 by Echolalia

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I'm not saying Holland is right or wrong. What I am saying is people here think that they are ONLY right and know better than management of the Red Wings (including Holland, scouts, etc)
But that's expected, that's what happens to a former successful franchise spoiled fanbase when they start seeing adversity; people become toxic and negative in every single way. Honestly, it's sad to watch. 

This is what happens when life long Tigers and Lions fans see the GOOD team turn into those other two teams

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

15 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Lol what? Who struggled on whether Larkin could make the roster?? He played at UM for one year, then became a pro, played in the Griffins playoffs and then went to training camp that summer, showed that he was a good player and he made the roster immediately. Wasn't even a healthy scratch once. There was no debate at all lol. He became a pro and immediately made the Red Wings. I don't even think you know what you are talking about. Larkin had zero issues making the Red Wings and it was never questioned. 

AA played 64 games last year. 37 before that. He's slowly earned his full time position. Blashill scratched him for being irresponsible on ice. Which is true, he is a bit of a floater. But actually improved upon that towards the end of the season. If you actually watch him play you can see his transition. Hell even I would scratch him for floating around as much as he did at some points of the game. But obviously being scratched helped. He's become better because of it. Additionally, Blashill actually sets AA for success. At one point he gave him some of those most sheltered minutes. 

As far as not having a defenseman since Lidstrom left. You act as though we're not actively seeking defenseman. We are. We've made pitches to the few defenseman to come here. But they chose other places. On the other hand most defenseman stay with the team they started off with (Cam Fowler just signed a lucrative deal to stay with Anaheim). And which defenseman on the trade block do you see "continually"? You're acting like there's all these D-men out there. Seriously name some. I'm interested to see all the ones we supposedly missed out on. 

Finally, Mrazek/Howard aren't worth a dam? Then what's your solution? Bring in Carey Price? Quick? Or bring back Hasek out of retirement? 

This is the exact problem. Lots of talk, whining, but no real volume or justification. 

I'd hire you as my coach. 

I guess I'm the only one who watched the 2015 preseason when the Wings management was debating sending him down before he made the final cut. Justin Schultz, Doug Hamilton, Seth Jones I mean the list of young defensemen traded is not small, and there are no end of threads with people pining for defensive talent that comes available not sure what you want. If you are happy with Holland and our team that's cool, stop acting like anyone wanting change is whining or is clueless. My solution is simple, get rid of Holland and stop signing average talent to long term overpriced deals.

[kliq 3,755]

Fans have a tendency to cling to something when it comes to improving their teams. "get rid of Babcock and we will be good again" "if we could just dump E things would change" "All we need is a right handed D-man" etc. etc. etc.

Right now the narrative is "when Holland leaves, things will turn around". Personally, I don't believe this is true. If ownership wanted a complete re-build, all they would have to do is tell Holland and he would have no choice. Do I think ownership has anything to do with the minor moves like trading for McCollum, or who they draft etc.? No.

Do I think ownership has a say on the big picture? To quote Mr Austin, hell ya.

I would put money on it that the task given to Holland by ownership is to turn the team around, while keeping it competitive and maximizing revenues in the process. If Yzerman or any other GM is brought in, IMO this is not going to change.

51 minutes ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

I don't care how old Larkin was the point is the supposed "experts" the "professionals" struggled on if he should make the roster...really? My point with AA was he has been ready, is ready and the nights he was a healthy scratch in place of guys like Sheahan is a joke. When you struggle to make easy calls it puts everything you do as an organization under greater scrutiny.

Its been 5 years since Nick left our team and in that time we still don't skate a defenseman in the top 50 talent wise in the NHL. We as a group fight over Mrazek/Howard when in fact neither one is worth a damn, and I continually see Defensemen on the trade block while we sit hamstrung by the incompetent contracts the "experts" hand out. I'm sure we'll continue down this path and sign Tatar to a long term obnoxious deal when we should be trading him as well.

 

Seriously? Where did you even get this from? They likely discussed it, but in the sports world you should have a discussion about any decision regardless of how "obvious" it may sound. People who make decision without discussions are emotion based thinkers, you don't want that running your team.

Your post represents a lot of what is wrong with fan opinion. We as fans are only privy to certain pieces of information, sometimes genuine, sometimes BS, sometimes planted by the organization, sometimes planted by opposing views with an agenda, or created due to a need to sell their voice. You bring up Sheahan/AA, I am not saying I agree or disagree with that, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know what goes on in practice, what goes on in meetings, or that I watch every player, every game, every shift, as that is clearly impossible. Coaches watch the games, re-watch the games, and dissect everything these players do. If they see a future in AA, then now is the time to pick these things apart to maximize the probability of him reaching his maximum potential. To simply say "AA was he has been ready, is ready and the nights he was a healthy scratch in place of guys like Sheahan is a joke" is short sided and likely an opinion you have created due to frustration. I am not even a fan of Blashill, but lets not pretend to know what he or anyone else in the organization knows. If we did, we would be working for a professional sports team.

[kickazz 5,459]

32 minutes ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

I guess I'm the only one who watched the 2015 preseason when the Wings management was debating sending him down before he made the final cut. Justin Schultz, Doug Hamilton, Seth Jones I mean the list of young defensemen traded is not small, and there are no end of threads with people pining for defensive talent that comes available not sure what you want. If you are happy with Holland and our team that's cool, stop acting like anyone wanting change is whining or is clueless. My solution is simple, get rid of Holland and stop signing average talent to long term overpriced deals.

Lol making up s*** now? Okay whatever it takes to talk down the organization. And no s*** sherlock he was a first year pro, if you're talking about that type of debate then yeah it's obvious they have to debate whether or not he belongs in the NHL. This is something ALL Coaches and GMs do throughout the NHL when it comes to PROSPECTS. Especially a FIRST YEAR one. And you got your answer. Their debate concluded the he did in fact belong in the NHL. Unlike Yzerman who debated Drouin did not belong in the NHL for example. This happens in all orgs. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

26 minutes ago, kliq said:

Fans have a tendency to cling to something when it comes to improving their teams. "get rid of Babcock and we will be good again" "if we could just dump E things would change" "All we need is a right handed D-man" etc. etc. etc.

Right now the narrative is "when Holland leaves, things will turn around". Personally, I don't believe this is true. If ownership wanted a complete re-build, all they would have to do is tell Holland and he would have no choice. Do I think ownership has anything to do with the minor moves like trading for McCollum, or who they draft etc.? No.

Do I think ownership has a say on the big picture? To quote Mr Austin, hell ya.

I would put money on it that the task given to Holland by ownership is to turn the team around, while keeping it competitive and maximizing revenues in the process. If Yzerman or any other GM is brought in, IMO this is not going to change.

Seriously? Where did you even get this from? They likely discussed it, but in the sports world you should have a discussion about any decision regardless of how "obvious" it may sound. People who make decision without discussions are emotion based thinkers, you don't want that running your team.

Your post represents a lot of what is wrong with fan opinion. We as fans are only privy to certain pieces of information, sometimes genuine, sometimes BS, sometimes planted by the organization, sometimes planted by opposing views with an agenda, or created due to a need to sell their voice. You bring up Sheahan/AA, I am not saying I agree or disagree with that, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know what goes on in practice, what goes on in meetings, or that I watch every player, every game, every shift, as that is clearly impossible. Coaches watch the games, re-watch the games, and dissect everything these players do. If they see a future in AA, then now is the time to pick these things apart to maximize the probability of him reaching his maximum potential. To simply say "AA was he has been ready, is ready and the nights he was a healthy scratch in place of guys like Sheahan is a joke" is short sided and likely an opinion you have created due to frustration. I am not even a fan of Blashill, but lets not pretend to know what he or anyone else in the organization knows. If we did, we would be working for a professional sports team.

Frustration from fans has turned them into pros and GMs. Delusions of Grandeur is a scary thought. 

[Buppy 1,720]

14 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't say people are in denial. No one is saying that we ARE rebuilding, just that we SHOULD be rebuilding. Everyone should know though that because these guys are professionals (GM's, coaches, scouts) they never make mistakes. I mean who are we to question anything they ever do? Shut down the board folks, stop expressing your opinions, because Ken Holland is always right. We should never disagree with the way he manages this team. Rasmussen, awesome selection. Daley, awesome signing. We don't need to make trades to upgrade this team. We should keep signing vets because the young guys aren't good enough. Keep trying to squeak into the playoffs because anything can happen. In Holland we trust...

Question all you want, but fans should keep in mind that these professionals in fact do know more than you. Doesn't mean they'll always be right, or that we shouldn't ever be critical, but it should at least prompt us to think, to really consider our opinions and accept the possibility that we might not know as much as we think. Instead fans tend to "think" through their emotions, get blinded by their preconceptions, and spend much more time trying to prove themselves right than determining if they are. So we end up arguing semantics, over-generalizations, and false dilemmas.

Rebuilding doesn't even mean anything. At least nothing so specific that signing or not signing Daley, or playing or not playing Sproul can be considered the line between rebuilding or not. Nor is signing vets in general. You say you're not in favor of tanking, but here you're arguing that we shouldn't try to make the playoffs. Not because it's relevant or you really believe it, but because you're trying to come up with arguments against Daley. I don't doubt that you'd make the exact opposite argument if you thought you could convince anyone that Sproul would make us a better team.

And Rasmussen is a great example of what I'm talking about. A whole legion of fans (many of whom usually overrate prospects and overlook any flaws) hate the pick and most likely don't know anything about him other than that some stat guy on the internet didn't like him. A whole bunch of people who evaluate hockey prospects for a living liked him enough to rank him in the top half of the first round, but they must all be idiots who were blinded by his size, because that guy on the internet noticed he had one bad stat. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Blah blah blah they know what they're doing even though the team is stuck in neutral... blah blah blah don' question Dear Leader... blah blah blah your opinion is worthless....

[jaymac17 10]

Hi guys. I typed "Detroit Red Wings fan forums" in my search engine looking desperately for a group of people to talk and be excited about the wings with. I'm a displaced fan living in wisconsin I've never joined much less posted to a group before but I got so sick of reading everyone's bitching in response to khan and St James articles (by no means am I defending anything they say) it just almost feels like there are no fans and that a lot of us are so %100 committed to pessimism that we don't even care if it's warranted in a specific case or not. I feel like the vocal portion of the fan base has slipped into a mob mentality trying to see who can be the most pissed of and most creatively label the organization as inept bush league. I joined this forum 10 minutes ago so I'm not trying to make any enemies or disparage people's opinions but I just hope this is a place where, in addition to sometimes well placed angst, we can have fun discussing "our wings" excitedly. Let's talk about the skill and promise we do have, how we'd deploy it, line makeups that have chemistry, things on the ice we'd like to see, personnel changes and deployments we're excited to get a look at, armchair gm moves we'd make. We're "wingnuts" guys let's try to bring the fun back a bit!...we can still pray for Stevie's return!

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[xtrememachine1 795]

14 hours ago, kickazz said:

New perpective, new views, fresh start, trade or two. Such superficial words. First of all, people wanted Babcock gone "because of his stale voice". 2 years later, that's not good enough. Holland changes his view from keeping kids in GR till they're 23+ years old to bringing up Larkin when he's 19, Mantha when he's 20 and Svech when he's 19. Apparently not good enough. Holland makes deadline aquisitions with Cole and Zidlicky, everyone is happy, but then Tampa beats us and then everyone says the aquisitions were terrible. Then, Holland trades players at deadline to get picks this past season, literally something he hasn't done like ever and apparently still not good enough.

For pete's sake the guy is actively trying to draft bigger players and offensive defenseman. That's a miracle. After years of the Red Wings been called "soft", "too small", and been criticized for forcing offensive defenseman play too defensively, this GM goes and does the complete opposite in the draft of 2017. If these two things don't strike people as a significant change in view, then holy cow. This guy just signed a literal goon to a 2 year contract (Witkowski). So much of the philsophy has changed since Lidstrom left, it's scary. For years we stayed away from big players, powerfowards.  

The views have changed. Trades have happened, perspective has changed. For better or for worse, I don't know. But they have. 

Absolutely.  People will always find a reason to be unhappy.  Some people just WANT to be unhappy, thus are pessimistic about everything and dislike it when people are optimistic about the team being successful.  Not enough toughness has been a drum people have been banging on in this forum for years.  Now he's getting toughness in the lineup and people are complaining.  Its a no win situation for Holland.

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 hours ago, Buppy said:

Question all you want, but fans should keep in mind that these professionals in fact do know more than you. Doesn't mean they'll always be right, or that we shouldn't ever be critical, but it should at least prompt us to think, to really consider our opinions and accept the possibility that we might not know as much as we think. Instead fans tend to "think" through their emotions, get blinded by their preconceptions, and spend much more time trying to prove themselves right than determining if they are. So we end up arguing semantics, over-generalizations, and false dilemmas.

Rebuilding doesn't even mean anything. At least nothing so specific that signing or not signing Daley, or playing or not playing Sproul can be considered the line between rebuilding or not. Nor is signing vets in general. You say you're not in favor of tanking, but here you're arguing that we shouldn't try to make the playoffs. Not because it's relevant or you really believe it, but because you're trying to come up with arguments against Daley. I don't doubt that you'd make the exact opposite argument if you thought you could convince anyone that Sproul would make us a better team.

And Rasmussen is a great example of what I'm talking about. A whole legion of fans (many of whom usually overrate prospects and overlook any flaws) hate the pick and most likely don't know anything about him other than that some stat guy on the internet didn't like him. A whole bunch of people who evaluate hockey prospects for a living liked him enough to rank him in the top half of the first round, but they must all be idiots who were blinded by his size, because that guy on the internet noticed he had one bad stat. 

There's not a doubt in my mind that Ken Holland knows more about managing a hockey team than myself or anyone else here. That doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, some so obvious, even to mere mortals... I'm not even saying that the Daley signing is one of those. I said several times it's a great signing, just not one that we should have made in our position (my opinion). That's me saying I don't think it was the right decision and being critical of that decision. Some here don't like that though. "Don't ever question the Holland"... "You're just a fan"... "You don't know s***"...

I'm not saying we should not make the playoffs, I'm saying that should not be the number one priority for this season (and maybe not the next). The priority should be building this team back into a Cup contender, instead of a playoff contender. Playing young guys instead of signing stop-gap vets, doesn't take too much away from this year, and could potentially make us much better in future years. Again, my opinion.

No one is really saying that Rasmussen sucks or will never become an NHL player. What people are saying is that there were better players still on the board at 9. Those same people that evaluate hockey prospects for a living, that had him ranked in the top half of the draft, also had him behind Vilardi and Tippett. I think it was the wrong selection, only time will tell. Regardless, he is a Red Wing now, and I'll be rooting him on every step of the way, hoping he becomes a legit number one center in the mold of a Getzlaf.