Athanasiou Signed 1 year $1.4 mil

[AtlantaHotWings 987]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Really? He has one 60 game season with 36 pts with Zberg feeding him. Zberg could get a drunk chimpanzee on skates 36 pts in a season. None of our young players are proven top 6 players yet, I think that's pretty clear.

Maybe a drunk chimp but not Sheehan, Helm or others....

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Maybe a drunk chimp but not Sheehan, Helm or others....

Sheahan and Helm don't play with Zberg

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Really? He has one 60 game season with 36 pts with Zberg feeding him. Zberg could get a drunk chimpanzee on skates 36 pts in a season. None of our young players are proven top 6 players yet, I think that's pretty clear.

36 points in 60 games (23 goal, 49 point pace) is very good for a rookie. I think you're giving Zetterberg a little too much credit here. Maybe it could have been the young, talented Mantha that rejuvenated the 36 year old captain into having his best season in 3 years... Mantha has proven that he can "handle" top six minutes, but I'll admit, maybe at this point in his career (almost one full season...) he's not a legit top line winger yet, but he definitely is a legit top six winger, with the potential and likelihood to become a top line winger.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

36 points in 60 games (23 goal, 49 point pace) is very good for a rookie. I think you're giving Zetterberg a little too much credit here. Maybe it could have been the young, talented Mantha that rejuvenated the 36 year old captain into having his best season in 3 years... Mantha has proven that he can "handle" top six minutes, but I'll admit, maybe at this point in his career (almost one full season...) he's not a legit top line winger yet, but he definitely is a legit top six winger, with the potential and likelihood to become a top line winger.

Proven? Mantha hasn't even played top 6 minutes yet. Top 6 wingers typically play 18 - 20 minutes a night. Mantha played just under 16 (7th on the team among forwards).

I don't know where you've been the last few years, but our players cycle on to Zbergs line, have career years, then go back to average. Larkin, Abdelkader, etc. are prime examples of this. Your smoking something if you don't think Zberg is far and away the best player on this team. He could probably outplay every defender on this team at their own position. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

A grand total of 32 wingers played more than 18 minutes a night last season. Considering there were 60 top six wingers, those numbers are a little high. Besides, when have the Red Wings ever given rookies "top six minutes"?

When did I ever say that I don't think Zetterberg is the best player on this team? I've stated many, MANY times that he is exactly that. That doesn't mean that he can turn any scrub into a top level talent.

You're smoking something if you don't think Mantha is a top six winger on this team / in this league...

[LeftWinger 4,961]

If we're able to get Svech 2, then absolutely a top 6 of:

Larkin, AA, Mantha, Svech, Svech 2 and Ras is in our future.

How's this?

AA - Larkin - Mantha

Svech - Ras - Svech 2

[DickieDunn 2,571]

3 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Sorry but that's wrong Larkin played awesome for this first half of the season, after the ASG his play dropped and it continued to do so last year. Can the guy bounce back? Yes, will he be as good as he showed in his first half season who knows. I think the truth is the guy will be a very good second line center but

he longer he was coached by Blash the worse he played

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

30 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

A grand total of 32 wingers played more than 18 minutes a night last season. Considering there were 60 top six wingers, those numbers are a little high. Besides, when have the Red Wings ever given rookies "top six minutes"?

When did I ever say that I don't think Zetterberg is the best player on this team? I've stated many, MANY times that he is exactly that. That doesn't mean that he can turn any scrub into a top level talent.

You're smoking something if you don't think Mantha is a top six winger on this team / in this league...

74 forwards played 18+ minutes in this league. 122 forwards played 17+ minutes a night. 189 forwards played 16+ minutes a night. Mantha is not in any of these 3 groups. So your original assertion that Mantha is a top line winger is simply... wrong.  Mantha has not even breached top6 minutes in this league yet, or top 6 minutes on this team. You can claim he's a legit top6 winger up and down and twice on Tuesday, but the numbers don't lie, he's not played that role yet. Mantha was deployed sparingly, and in predominantly offensive situations, on Zetterberg's wing... much like Larkin his first year. I'm not sure why that's difficult to see. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

74 forwards played 18+ minutes in this league. 122 forwards played 17+ minutes a night. 189 forwards played 16+ minutes a night. Mantha is not in any of these 3 groups. So your original assertion that Mantha is a top line winger is simply... wrong.  Mantha has not even breached top6 minutes in this league yet, or top 6 minutes on this team. You can claim he's a legit top6 winger up and down and twice on Tuesday, but the numbers don't lie, he's not played that role yet. Mantha was deployed sparingly, and in predominantly offensive situations, on Zetterberg's wing... much like Larkin his first year. I'm not sure why that's difficult to see. 

Yeah, let's base everything on minutes played. Great indicator... As I said before, this team has never given rookies top six minutes and rightfully so, since most can't handle it right away. However, that doesn't mean that none of them are top six talents. How about we use another stat, like, I don't know, points per game?... Mantha ranked 57th in points per game among wingers, 114th among forwards. So my assertion that Mantha is a top six winger is simply... right.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Precisely.  With Z and Dats removed, these "top line" guys start to look a lot like 3rd line guys.  We've seen it with Abby, Larkin, Tatar, and Nyquist.  Put Sheahan as their C and 14 minutes a night, and it's disappear city.  That was why I suggested those 6 on the 2nd and 3rd lines.  This whole conversation is moot, as our failed vacuum salesman idiot GM has committed 50 million of cap space to SHYT players.  We are stuck watching guys who should have been traded, bought out, or let go by now for multiple years.  

 

Pretty much

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, let's base everything on minutes played. Great indicator... As I said before, this team has never given rookies top six minutes and rightfully so, since most can't handle it right away. However, that doesn't mean that none of them are top six talents. How about we use another stat, like, I don't know, points per game?... Mantha ranked 57th in points per game among wingers, 114th among forwards. So my assertion that Mantha is a top six winger is simply... right.

Uhhh minutes played is a pretty big and pretty relliable indicator of role on any team lol

Mantha had a great first season. Glad you're over the moon about him. But again, he was deployed in predominately offensive situations with Zberg as his C. Larkin, Abby, etc. had the same expierence and dropped in production without Zberg. Are you honestly suggesting playing with Zberg didn't help Mantha?

[krsmith17 7,191]

Sure it is, but for a team that is notorious for bringing their prospects along slowly, I don't think minutes played is a great indicator. I guess to you minutes played is more important than production... in this instance, since it helps your argument. You know what else is a pretty reliable indicator of role on a team?  Where he slotted in the lineup... Mantha played the majority of the season on the 1st line wing.

Of course Larkin's production dropped after being demoted off Zetterberg's line. Did you expect his production to increase? The same thing would happen to most players going from a 19 year old rookie, top line, to sophomore, middle six. I would say our biggest drop off between any position is our top line center (Zetterberg) to our second line center (Nielsen). Larkin played mostly with Sheahan and Abby. Of course he had a rough season production wise. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

39 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure it is, but for a team that is notorious for bringing their prospects along slowly, I don't think minutes played is a great indicator. I guess to you minutes played is more important than production... in this instance, since it helps your argument. You know what else is a pretty reliable indicator of role on a team?  Where he slotted in the lineup... Mantha played the majority of the season on the 1st line wing.

Of course Larkin's production dropped after being demoted off Zetterberg's line. Did you expect his production to increase? The same thing would happen to most players going from a 19 year old rookie, top line, to sophomore, middle six. I would say our biggest drop off between any position is our top line center (Zetterberg) to our second line center (Nielsen). Larkin played mostly with Sheahan and Abby. Of course he had a rough season production wise. 

I'm confused. Now you're arguing the exact point I was originally making. Zberg carries this team, and he carries his linemates, Mantha and Larkin included. You suggested Mantha rejuvenated an old Zberg just a few posts ago, but now you're agreeing that he elevates his teammates? IMO Mantha benefited tremendously from spending the majority of his time with Zberg, just like Larkin did. Which is why I don't consider Mantha a bonafide top6 player in this league yet. Larkin was a drastically different player, and did not look at all like a top6 forward, without Zberg guiding him. There's a very good chance the same thing happens to Mantha in his sophomore year.

Yeah, Mantha was deployed on the 1st line. That doesn't make him a 1st line caliber player. Zberg was deployed about 5 minutes more a nigh without Mantha, and with other players not named Mantha when heading into the defensive zone. That's sheltering a player. Hopefully Mantha develops into the first line player we both want him to be, but as of this moment he hasn't played the role, minutes, or situations of a first line player. When he grabs those reigns successfully he will be a 1st line player, but as of now he's more akin to a Vanek type.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[Jacksoni 418]

Any tangible news on this AA debacle? Been a while now. And we ain't getting any younger, nor is the season starting later.

My stance is that we need him on the team, he's young and exciting, not perfect but makes people watch, including me. Has possible star potential (not super). All these points I have made before, I am just reiterating them. Could be that I'm old or trying to assert that this deal is somewhat important in my opinion, going in to LCA.

[krsmith17 7,191]

35 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm confused. Now you're arguing the exact point I was originally making. Zberg carries this team, and he carries his linemates, Mantha and Larkin included. You suggested Mantha rejuvenated an old Zberg just a few posts ago, but now you're agreeing that he elevates his teammates? IMO Mantha benefited tremendously from spending the majority of his time with Zberg, just like Larkin did. Which is why I don't consider Mantha a bonafide top6 player in this league yet. Larkin was a drastically different player, and did not look at all like a top6 forward, without Zberg guiding him. There's a very good chance the same thing happens to Mantha in his sophomore year.

Yeah, Mantha was deployed on the 1st line. That doesn't make him a 1st line caliber player. Zberg was deployed about 5 minutes more a nigh without Mantha, and with other players not named Mantha when heading into the defensive zone. That's sheltering a player. Hopefully Mantha develops into the first line player we both want him to be, but as of this moment he hasn't played the role, minutes, or situations of a first line player. When he grabs those reigns successfully he will be a 1st line player, but as of now he's more akin to a Vanek type.

I didn't say Mantha rejuvenated Zetterberg, I said that it's possible that he did. Zetterberg does elevate his teammates, but I also think he benefitted playing with Mantha. I'm sure you don't believe Hank would have put up 68 points between Sheahan and Abdelkader, do you?

No, being deployed on the top line doesn't make him a 1st line caliber player, just like playing 16 minutes a night doesn't make him a bottom six caliber player. Yes, Mantha was sheltered, but again, that's more to do with team philosophy than the player in my opinion.

I already admitted that he hasn't proven to be a top line winger, but I stand by the fact that he is and will be a legit top six winger. 

[kickazz 5,459]

I'm not so sure. Larkin plays with Zetterberg year one and does well. Plays without Zetterberg year 2 and doesn't do well.

The few games Mantha played without Z, he wasn't doing well.

If they help Z, it's very little compared to how much he helps them.

This team is screwed once he's gone. Maybe even moreso than when Datsyuk left. Datsyuk was a one man army, Zetterberg is the commander that Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Larkin, Abdelkader all looked good with.

Edited August 30, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

47 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I didn't say Mantha rejuvenated Zetterberg, I said that it's possible that he did. Zetterberg does elevate his teammates, but I also think he benefitted playing with Mantha. I'm sure you don't believe Hank would have put up 68 points between Sheahan and Abdelkader, do you?

No, being deployed on the top line doesn't make him a 1st line caliber player, just like playing 16 minutes a night doesn't make him a bottom six caliber player. Yes, Mantha was sheltered, but again, that's more to do with team philosophy than the player in my opinion.

I already admitted that he hasn't proven to be a top line winger, but I stand by the fact that he is and will be a legit top six winger. 

I believe Zetterberg is going to score somewhere between 60 to 70 pts no matter who you play him with. He plays so much he ends up playing with almost everyone in the top 9 anyway. The man is a thoroughbred. Abdelkader and Sheahan on the other hand would have had much better seasons consistently playing with him.

Did Larkin elevate Zberg? I don't think so. Z  probably would have a very comparable season next to Nyquist or Tatar or Abdelkader etc. However as soon as Larkin left Zbergs line he went from dynamic sniper to defensively-incompetent/lost-in-the-offensive-zone boy.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

3 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

Any tangible news on this AA debacle? Been a while now. And we ain't getting any younger, nor is the season starting later.

My stance is that we need him on the team, he's young and exciting, not perfect but makes people watch, including me. Has possible star potential (not super). All these points I have made before, I am just reiterating them. Could be that I'm old or trying to assert that this deal is somewhat important in my opinion, going in to LCA.

There's this Mlve article from today:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/08/andreas_athanasiou_agent_consi.html#incart_river_index

"The agent for Andreas Athanasiou said there is a wide gap between offers the young forward has received from the Detroit Red Wings and some KHL clubs.

...Red Wings general manager Ken Holland said he remains in contact with Ferris but "the ball is in their court. They have a decision to make."

Holland said he has made multiple good-faith offers based on comparables -- NHL players of similar age and accomplishments (games, goals, points per game, etc.).

...Holland has said he still expects to be slightly over the cap if Athanasiou is signed, requiring him to make another move.

But the cap isn't the reason the Red Wings, who have made offers of one and two years, don't have a deal with the fast-skating winger who has 27 goals and 43 points in 101 NHL games. They're determined to negotiate based on comparables, not what on a player can get in the KHL. Otherwise, other young players (Dylan Larkin and Anthony Mantha are up for new deals after the season) could use offers from Russia as a basis for their NHL contract."

[kickazz 5,459]

55 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

But the cap isn't the reason the Red Wings, who have made offers of one and two years, don't have a deal with the fast-skating winger who has 27 goals and 43 points in 101 NHL games. They're determined to negotiate based on comparables, not what on a player can get in the KHL. Otherwise, other young players (Dylan Larkin and Anthony Mantha are up for new deals after the season) could use offers from Russia as a basis for their NHL contract."

AA is an idiot if he's honestly going to use KHL as a reason why he deserves more rather than NHL comparables. 

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I believe Zetterberg is going to score somewhere between 60 to 70 pts no matter who you play him with. He plays so much he ends up playing with almost everyone in the top 9 anyway. The man is a thoroughbred. Abdelkader and Sheahan on the other hand would have had much better seasons consistently playing with him.

Did Larkin elevate Zberg? I don't think so. Z  probably would have a very comparable season next to Nyquist or Tatar or Abdelkader etc. However as soon as Larkin left Zbergs line he went from dynamic sniper to defensively-incompetent/lost-in-the-offensive-zone boy.

He already has

2013/14 48 points in 45 games (Nyquist/Datsyuk and Abdelkader)

2014/15 66 points in 77 games (Nyquist and Abdelkader)

2016/17 68 points in 82 games. (Mantha and Tatar) 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

8 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

Any tangible news on this AA debacle? Been a while now. And we ain't getting any younger, nor is the season starting later.

My stance is that we need him on the team, he's young and exciting, not perfect but makes people watch, including me. Has possible star potential (not super). All these points I have made before, I am just reiterating them. Could be that I'm old or trying to assert that this deal is somewhat important in my opinion, going in to LCA.

Agent said he thinks it should be decided "within the week" a few days ago.  I haven't heard anything since.  I imagine the likelihood of a year or three in the KHL is getting more likely since I don't see Holland budging too much.  Grinder wants money?  Back up the truck.  Talented young player wants money?  F--k him.

5 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

There's this Mlve article from today:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/08/andreas_athanasiou_agent_consi.html#incart_river_index

"The agent for Andreas Athanasiou said there is a wide gap between offers the young forward has received from the Detroit Red Wings and some KHL clubs.

...Red Wings general manager Ken Holland said he remains in contact with Ferris but "the ball is in their court. They have a decision to make."

Holland said he has made multiple good-faith offers based on comparables -- NHL players of similar age and accomplishments (games, goals, points per game, etc.).

...Holland has said he still expects to be slightly over the cap if Athanasiou is signed, requiring him to make another move.

But the cap isn't the reason the Red Wings, who have made offers of one and two years, don't have a deal with the fast-skating winger who has 27 goals and 43 points in 101 NHL games. They're determined to negotiate based on comparables, not what on a player can get in the KHL. Otherwise, other young players (Dylan Larkin and Anthony Mantha are up for new deals after the season) could use offers from Russia as a basis for their NHL contract."

I'd like to know what the offers are.  If they're $1.5 mil or so, I'd say f--k off too.  If they're $2 mil+, AA should sign.

 

But, these guys have fairly short careers.  Even the guys who stay healthy and are gym rats are generally done by 40.  Gotta make money when you can.  If the KHL is willing to give him $4 mil a year and it's tax free, it'd be hard to turn that down.

Edited August 31, 2017 by DickieDunn

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Agent said he thinks it should be decided "within the week" a few days ago.  I haven't heard anything since.  I imagine the likelihood of a year or three in the KHL is getting more likely since I don't see Holland budging too much.  Grinder wants money?  Back up the truck.  Talented young player wants money?  F--k him.

I'd like to know what the offers are.  If they're $1.5 mil or so, I'd say f--k off too.  If they're $2 mil+, AA should sign.

But, these guys have fairly short careers.  Even the guys who stay healthy and are gym rats are generally done by 40.  Gotta make money when you can.  If the KHL is willing to give him $4 mil a year and it's tax free, it'd be hard to turn that down.

Only 3 guys in the KHL make 4 mill or more (Kovy, Dats, Voynov) so AA's offer wouldn't be that high. And only 7 guys make more than 2 million so I can't imagine his KHL offer was very large really. 2.5-3 as the highest possibility to me, but that is really just a guess.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/khl-contract-salaries-highest-paid-datsyuk-radulov-kovalchuk-kontinental-hockey-league/

Nichushkin bolted from the Dallas Stars last year in similar situation and he only made 1.21 million in the KHL. Both players had 29 pt. seasons before negotiating, but AA's goal total (18) is double what Nichushkin's so I'm not how you should weigh that compareable.

The only real hint at Kenny's offer, is when he said he expects us to be "slightly over the cap" if we sign AA. According to Detroit new's article on the KHL offer, we're already 2.5 mill over. If we consider Franzen's LTIR cap relief (3.95 mill), then we at least know he's offering more than 1.45 million. I guess it all depends how you interpret "slightly over" to guess how much higher the offer would be.

But i look to the Sheahan deal. We signed Sheahan for 2.075 when he had an extra year in the NHL under his belt, but after a year when he had very similar stats (-4 goals). So I think that offer is around 2 mill. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

Man these RFAs are so spoiled these days. Just take the godam money and make a name for yourselves you fools.

And holy s*** PVD , 4:30 am long post

Edited August 31, 2017 by kickazz

[Juklitz 85]

53 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

People assume the money is the only consideration.

It´s the same bottle. Higher money you have, higher ice time you will get. Asking for more money means also asking for more ice time and responsibility. 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

7 hours ago, kickazz said:

Man these RFAs are so spoiled these days. Just take the godam money and make a name for yourselves you fools.

And holy s*** PVD , 4:30 am long post

haha, musician's schedule. Had show, couldn't sleep after.

[kickazz 5,459]

6 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is where the problem lies.  People assume the money is the only consideration.  "Make a name for yourself" playing 13 minutes a night with Witkowski and Glendening?  Maybe the KHL offer includes 20 minutes a night with 3 minutes a night of power play time and Pavel Datsyuk as his centerman.  If I'm a AA, I'm looking for Ken Holland to give me a reason to want to stay on his crappy ass team.  And with the type of ice time and linemates AA gets, that reason has to be a bigger contract.  3 mil per for 3 years is the minimum I would accept.  

13 minutes in the best league in the world vs 20 in a s*** league with mediocre players and a 40 year old Datsyuk? 

If you want more ice time you and him should both just join a neighborhood street hockey game instead of traveling to a foreign land where most people probably hate your guts.

It's about money. Not about minutes. The agent made it clear. Take those rose colored glasses off.

Edited August 31, 2017 by kickazz