krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Zadina's on track so Mackel's just trolling. My intent with Veleno is never to troll. I really like him. But comparing Veleno and his so-far 5 game NHL career to a player that had one of the best individual shutdown center runs in recent playoff history? How can I not make fun of this? How? Tell me? mackel isn't trolling. He truly thinks Zadina sucks. Or at least he did, and now he won't admit he was (may be) wrong. I compared Veleno to Danault long before this recent run by the Habs / "one of the best individual shutdown center runs in recent playoff history"... Despite what you may think, their games are very similar. Veleno has up to this point, been a better point producer than Danault at the same age. Danault is a 40-50 point 2C that can go head-to-head against the leagues best. I don't see any reason to doubt Veleno could become just that in a few years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Well I don't think Yzerman signs Danault. Doesn't make sense. However, if he did, I suspect it would be to free up Larkin to produce more offence. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for sure. I think I'd rather Tyler Johnson though. Mainly due to the asset we'd get back in such a deal, and his cup winning leadership along with Leddy. And he'ds only be around for 3 seasons. Denault probably looking for something much longer. Edited July 21, 2021 by marcaractac 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Well I don't think Yzerman signs Danault. Doesn't make sense. However, if he did, I suspect it would be to free up Larkin to produce more offence. I'd be okay with Danault short-term, but I assume he's looking for something 5+ years. 4 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said: Danault + Hyman = rebuild extended Fixed, Both are likely looking for long-term contracts, and neither are likely to be worth the AAV they will command in year's 1 and 2, let alone 5 and 6... Both are going to get grossly overpaid. Fortunately, Yzerman isn't going to be the dumb GM that does it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said: Danault + Hyman = rebuild over there's a joke in there somewhere Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said: If there's one thing Larkin needed yesterday it's either a 1C or 2C to free him up. Get him a 1C so he can be the 2C shutdown guy. Or get him a 2C shutdown guy so we can at least attempt to make him a legit 1C. Danault + Hyman = rebuild over I was thinking with the Leddy trade and how good he is at moving the puck and running a PP that Yzerman is trying to see what he really has for offence moving forward (like, is Zadina a "bust" or does he really just need better players getting him the puck at 5-5 and PP). It's sort of important for him to know this I think. Singing Danault and freeing Larkin would fit this MO as well. 2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: I'd be okay with Danault short-term, but I assume he's looking for something 5+ years. Fixed, Both are likely looking for long-term contracts, and neither are likely to be worth the AAV they will command in year's 1 and 2, let alone 5 and 6... Both are going to get grossly overpaid. Fortunately, Yzerman isn't going to be the dumb GM that does it. Danault at 6M x 5 would not hurt this team. His contract would be up or buriable by the time this team was a max-cap squad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Danault at 6M x 5 would not hurt this team. His contract would be up or buriable by the time this team was a max-cap squad. Just because we have ample cap space, doesn't mean we should blow it, and sign average players to bad contracts. Danault at $6M x 5 wouldn't be great value in year's 1, 2, and 3, and could be Frans Nielsen level bad in year's 4 and 5. Moderately improve our team in the short-term (lessening our lottery odds), and making our team worse in the long-term. Makes zero sense... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Just because we have ample cap space, doesn't mean we should blow it, and sign average players to bad contracts. Danault at $6M x 5 wouldn't be great value in year's 1, 2, and 3, and could be Frans Nielsen level bad in year's 4 and 5. Moderately improve our team in the short-term (lessening our lottery odds), and making our team worse in the long-term. Makes zero sense... Veleno = future average confirmed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Just because we have ample cap space, doesn't mean we should blow it, and sign average players to bad contracts. Danault at $6M x 5 wouldn't be great value in year's 1, 2, and 3, and could be Frans Nielsen level bad in year's 4 and 5. Moderately improve our team in the short-term (lessening our lottery odds), and making our team worse in the long-term. Makes zero sense... May as well give that same contract offer (or sweeten it slightly) to Hyman. Would certainly help this team immediately, but in about 3 years time they'll look pretty meh. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 Just now, The 91 of Ryans said: Veleno = future average confirmed Well yeah... I would consider most middle six forwards / middle pair defensemen "average"... Did you think I ever thought Veleno = future superstar? 1 minute ago, F.Michael said: May as well give that same contract offer (or sweeten it slightly) to Hyman. Would certainly help this team immediately, but in about 3 years time they'll look pretty meh. Those two contracts, especially Hyman's, are going to look REALLY bad in a few years (or less)... Yzerman isn't touching either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, F.Michael said: May as well give that same contract offer (or sweeten it slightly) to Hyman. Would certainly help this team immediately, but in about 3 years time they'll look pretty meh. You think Hyman helps this team more than Danault? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 Just now, The 91 of Ryans said: You think Hyman helps this team more than Danault? He'll contribute more in the goal scoring dept - good hard-working winger...Has ties to the area and apparently is 'pals' with DBoss. I'm all in favor of adding both just for the fact that both will help this team immediately and won't cost us anything but cap space - however after the 3rd season I'm not sure how these 2 contracts will look... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Those two contracts, especially Hyman's, are going to look REALLY bad in a few years (or less)... Yzerman isn't touching either. While both will make this team better right now - not so sure about the future...Sorta goes against the whole idea of a proper rebuild. I'd be surprised if 1 or both become Red Wings. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Just because we have ample cap space, doesn't mean we should blow it, and sign average players to bad contracts. Danault at $6M x 5 wouldn't be great value in year's 1, 2, and 3, and could be Frans Nielsen level bad in year's 4 and 5. Moderately improve our team in the short-term (lessening our lottery odds), and making our team worse in the long-term. Makes zero sense... Still talking lottery are we? Let's build a team around 6 -12% odds. Worked well so far. Obviously Yzerman wants this team to be better than you. It was clear after the Leddy deal and even more clear now........ 1 ely s reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 56 minutes ago, marcaractac said: Nobody is accusing Veleno of being at that level in the NHL yet. But based on his play in other leagues, it is what is he is expected to grow into. Hence why locking up Denault would not be all that great. Short term would be fine, sure. But we are starving for an offensive-minded center right now. Not sure I agree with this. Veleno has been cited for defensive issues in every single league he's ever played in. Most recently in Sweden, when his coach said he was moved to the wing because he wasn't handling the defensive aspects of center. He's young and makes an honest effort, so it's not like he can't evolve, but up to this point he's really never shown solid two-way acumen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, kipwinger said: Not sure I agree with this. Veleno has been cited for defensive issues in every single league he's ever played in. Most recently in Sweden, when his coach said he was moved to the wing because he wasn't handling the defensive aspects of center. He's young and makes an honest effort, so it's not like he can't evolve, but up to this point he's really never shown solid two-way acumen. You're not wrong. His WJC performance admittedly clouds my judgement on him sometimes, as there he was the shut down center and did a damn fine job of it. He definitely had struggles when he went pro, but he did show improvement in the AHL at least. I'm not gonna hold the SHL against him too much based on the differences there with style and ice size. I guess it's more reasonable to say that while the potential is there, he definitely has work to do. His small NHL sample size showed some promise, fortunately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Still talking lottery are we? Let's build a team around 6 -12% odds. Worked well so far. Obviously Yzerman wants this team to be better than you. It was clear after the Leddy deal and even more clear now....... Yes, you build your team through the draft. That's your best chance to acquire elite talent. Yes, drafting high has been working (so far) as of late. Seider and Raymond both look like studs. We need more top 5ish picks. Adding Leddy doesn't mean that Yzerman has shifted focus. He's still saying all the right things. Even more clear now? Based on what? *Rumors* that Yzerman is in on certain players? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, marcaractac said: You're not wrong. His WJC performance admittedly clouds my judgement on him sometimes, as there he was the shut down center and did a damn fine job of it. He definitely had struggles when he went pro, but he did show improvement in the AHL at least. I'm not gonna hold the SHL against him too much based on the differences there with style and ice size. I guess it's more reasonable to say that while the potential is there, he definitely has work to do. His small NHL sample size showed some promise, fortunately. The Wings definitely said they want him to be that type player, I just wouldn't expect him to be one of the better shutdown centers in the league as Danault has become. 1 The 91 of Ryans reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 Just now, kipwinger said: The Wings definitely said they want him to be that type player, I just wouldn't expect him to be one of the better shutdown centers in the league as Danault has become. I expect him to be in that mold, but as a 3C and not 2C. 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 30 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Yes, you build your team through the draft. That's your best chance to acquire elite talent. Yes, drafting high has been working (so far) as of late. Seider and Raymond both look like studs. We need more top 5ish picks. Adding Leddy doesn't mean that Yzerman has shifted focus. He's still saying all the right things. Even more clear now? Based on what? *Rumors* that Yzerman is in on certain players? So Yzerman adds Leddy, gives up a 2nd, and this is keeping with his obvious plan of building through the draft. But Yzerman signing Hyman, Danault or whomever the *** as a UFA which costs him zero picks is some sort of illogical deviation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 The more I think about it the more I like Danault here. Let Veleno and Rasmussen slaughter each other for that 3C spot. In 3-4 years when Rasmussen prevails he removes Danault's old azz from the top 6. Much better scenario then handing the 2C spot this season to a guy who played 3rd line wing in europe or a guy who's closer but still putting it together in the NHL. Danault = good 4 now, good 4 future. 1 Rick D reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: So Yzerman adds Leddy, gives up a 2nd, and this is keeping with his obvious plan of building through the draft. Yes. Adding Leddy doesn't change anything in regards to the rebuild timeline. 11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: But Yzerman signing Hyman, Danault or whomever the *** as a UFA which costs him zero picks is some sort of illogical deviation? Yes. Signing mediocre players to bad contracts is never a good thing. The only time it makes a little sense, is when you feel you're a piece or two away from having a legitimate shot at a Cup... 5 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said: >Leddy bad cause we could've gotten someone else in UFA for free >Danault/Hyamn bad cause we shouldn't be picking up guys in UFA for free Do try to keep up I have never once said the Leddy acquisition was bad. A rebuilding team should never sign mediocre players to long-term contracts. By trying to expedite the rebuild, you further extend the rebuild... Try to keep up... 3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: The more I think about it the more I like Danault here. Let Veleno and Rasmussen slaughter each other for that 3C spot. In 3-4 years when Rasmussen prevails he removes Danault's old azz from the top 6. Much better scenario then handing the 2C spot this season to a guy who played 3rd line wing in europe or a guy who's closer but still putting it together in the NHL. Danault = good 4 now, good 4 future. Yeah, a $6M 3C is definitely "good 4 future"... Ken Holland is not here anymore. Stop advocating for Ken Holland moves. Yzerman likely will acquire another stop-gap center (if Namestnikov is taken in the expansion), similar to Namestnikov. No one is saying hand the 2C spot over to Veleno or Rasmussen, but it's only a matter of time before Veleno takes it over... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 1 minute ago, krsmith17 said: I have never once said the Leddy acquisition was bad. A rebuilding team should never sign mediocre players to long-term contracts. By trying to expedite the rebuild, you further extend the rebuild... Try to keep up... Was the Leddy trade trying to expedite the rebuild? Or was it merely an effort to provide some support to the existing roster? Because he will make this team better. Wings desperately need another top 6C. Danault's one of the better 2C in the NHL. Danault's available. Yzerman has enough cap to send himself to outer space. VS you can't do that. Cool 1 Rick D reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Yeah, a $6M 3C is definitely "good 4 future"... Ken Holland is not here anymore. Stop advocating for Ken Holland moves. Yzerman likely will acquire another stop-gap center (if Namestnikov is taken in the expansion), similar to Namestnikov. No one is saying hand the 2C spot over to Veleno or Rasmussen, but it's only a matter of time before Veleno takes it over... Four years from now? Yeah a 6M 3C is not ideal. But this team won't be dealing with the current Leaf's cap horror show at that time either. Make the team better now. Then like other GMs, deal with your problem later. Danault's 28 and will be for most of the season. Holland was never able to poach an in-his-prime UFA. So enough of the tired old Holland cliches plz Most importantly, tell me, who is this magical stop gap 2C is that Yzerman's going to sign? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Was the Leddy trade trying to expedite the rebuild? No, it wasn't. Not at all. 3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Or was it merely an effort to provide some support to the existing roster? Because he will make this team better. Yes, and yes he will. 3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Wings desperately need another top 6C. Danault's one of the better 2C in the NHL. Danault's available. Yzerman has enough cap to send himself to outer space. VS you can't do that. Cool Leddy is a top three defenseman on an expiring contract. Danault is one of the better available centers in free agency, and will command a long-term high cap contract. I'm not sure how you think the two are at all similar. They're not. At all... 9 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said: If you got it, use it This is not how Yzerman has operated thus far. I'm not sure why anyone would think this is how he will operate going forward... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted July 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Leddy is a top three defenseman on an expiring contract. Danault is one of the better available centers in free agency, and will command a long-term high cap contract. I'm not sure how you think the two are at all similar. They're not. At all... This is not how Yzerman has operated thus far. I'm not sure why anyone would think this is how he will operate going forward... Yzerman can afford Danault in every sense of the word. If he doesn't bring in legit legit help for Larkin now then he may as well trade him, and Zadina, and Vrana. Or whatever. This team cannot afford to suck for much longer. And I believe they can improve significantly and still pick top 10 for a couple more years. With this in mind, please answer my previous question. Tell me about this stop-gap UFA 2C Yzerman can sign. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
