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Ordered. Talked last night with my wife who convinced me to do it. Taking my Dad as a gift. Winter Classic here I come!

I agree with RWA above, probably closer to two years but prob not one year. Even as much as Huberdeau exploded in the minors he still didn't crack the lineup all season for Florida. The way it's looking we might actually rely on our youth and farm system opposed to signing and trading for big name players like the good ol days. Hope to see Jurco sooner than later.

I would love to see Jurco overachieve and be here in a year. Not realistic though considering how our system works.

I'll agree, the major problems have been lack of postseason scoring and soft defense. Those have been the problems since 2009, but Holland's done little to nothing to address those issues.

Yeah. At this point it seems he's closer to 2 than 4.

6 years in the minors for over-ripening, right?

I would be giddy if he could somehow make the big squad this season.... Feeling like he could learn a ton from Datsyuk and those two would be awesome together. Not holding my breath, though.

Our depth and skill up front is being HEAVILY under-rated by so many people on this board (and elsewhere). If a young gun (or two) has a solid rookie campaign (Nyquist, Brunner, or maybe Tatar I could see contributing) we or more will probably once again be among the leagues top producing teams. Even with a few injuries we have allot more attractive options to fill in as top-6 stopgaps. Beyond Hank and Pav we have Cleary, Sammy, Bert, Filp, Zetterberg, Franzen are all guys that should put up 20 goals and if healthy are serviceable top 6 players anywhere in the league. If Brunner and Nyquist adapt to the league quickly then we should be able to roll out 3 offensively threatening lines on a nightly basis. Defence is another story - but the longer we go without making a big move the more comfortable I am becoming with just signing a solid veteran dman as "Kindl insurance" ... Cant wait for this season to start just to end these endless downfall speculation threads.

Just want to correct this notion on Quincey. He's more than a third pairing, he led his team in ice-team on the top pairing at 23:36 a night in 09-10, and 20+ each and every night since, he played more than Stuart last season, and just a minute behind Kronwall, and 4 minutes more than Ericsson. Quincey is also a productive offensive guy, even with how he struggled with us last season he still was well within top 60 defenseman in the league points-wise, so at the very least you are getting top 4 offensive numbers, and a decent size/skating ability player. Quincey was bad with us, but the potential is there for him to be a top pairing guy, don't forget he's still only 26, and has had a top .54 ppg(top 30) season in 70 games which was 08-09 with similar numbers to Letang, Burns, Edler and Pitkanen.

I get the arguments for not wanting Bouwmeester, but this is just silly. He's overpaid, hasn't been productive offensively and will likely cost a lot, but he's way better than everyone on that list with the exception of Kronwall. I have a lot of hope and confidence in Smith turning out to be very good, but Bouwmeester has already established a pretty solid NHL career. Kindl has hardly shown any development, Quincey/Ericsson have been mostly third pairing guys that are going to get tested especially this season in a much larger role. Bouwmeester has played top-pairing minutes for a long time. The Red Wings defense would be much better having Bouwmeester around next season. It's just a matter of whether the asking price is at all reasonable, which I highly doubt to be the case.

At this point, I say offer Colaiacovo exactly what we gave White last year and see if he'll accept it. If he does, go hard after Yandle and be able to dangle a defenceman in the package as well because we'd have a bit more depth to be flexible in trades. 16 forwards, 7 defenceman, 3 goalies and a full years worth of picks. Gotta be able to get something done with that kind of leverage.

I dont mind the look of our Forwards at all...I have a lot of faith in Nyquist and Brunner. Franzen - Datsyuk - Brunner Filppula- Zetterberg - Nyquist Bertuzzi - Helm - Samuelsson Cleary - Abdelkader - Tootoo 13th/14th/15th -Mursak/Emmerton/Miller (someone needs to be traded) Eaves - LTIR I really like that lineup.

It was proven last season that Cleary is no good unless he is on the 3rd line with Helm. He is NOT a top 6 forward!

I wasn't sold on that Brunner guy when we signed him, but after watching his highlight video the guy has a high end skill. I'd like to see Brunner-Datsyuk-Nyquist (Yepp, give Pavel two quick high skill guys and let him develop them) Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen (Pretty much the top line, would be deadly. Franzen is better with Zetterberg I feel.) Cleary-Helm-Bertuzzi (Could be a pretty physical line with scoring potential if they stay healthy) Eaves-Abdelkader-Tootoo (Wrecking ball line, decent amount of offensive touch too) Then Miller, Emmerton, Mursak as the spare parts. Actually.. I guess I forgot Samuelsson. Yeah, we have too many forwards

I'm reserving judgement until training camp and the preseason. I like some of the unkown potential we have with the youth, but I also feel that once there is a more solid sense of what the new CBA will bring that Holland will surprise us.

Our forwards aren't as bad as they seem. Even assuming Cleary has another bad year and can't crack the top 6. Last year's number's compared to Vancouver's who had the best offense in the Western Confernce, and Chicago second best. Zetterberg(.84)/Datsyuk(.96)/Franzen(.73) Bertuzzi(.54)/Filpulla(.81)/Sammy(.57) Sedin(.93)/Sedin(.99)/Higgins(.61) Burrows(.65)Kesler(.64)/Booth(.48) Sharp(.93)/Toews(.97)/Hossa(.95) Kane(,80)Bolland(.49)/Stalberg(.54) Our top 6 doesn't suck by any standard, sorry. And we have pieces like Nyquist/Brunner that are unknowns and could contribute, and veterans like Cleary who have proven to put up 20 goals in the past.

Actually I like how our forwards look better than last year. It's defense that worries me.

Is this a "everyone panic thread" cause we don't know the forward lines yet and its the beginning of August? Also the lines probably will change a lot anyways. Anyone need a valium?

That scares me

All you need to know about why we suck, is that you have Dan Cleary on the top line. Hell, it doesn't matter how you slice it, our forward lineup is old on the top 2 lines. And keep in mind, many of these players have a history of injuries, so depth will be a factor. I expect to see Nyquist, Tatar and Mursak a lot this season.

And he's one hell of a guitar player! esteef

And for the record, I think Howard is a goaltender you can win a cup with. Could care less about save percentages and whatever else. You can see it on the ice the way the kid plays. If I was a wings fan, that's all that would matter to me.

Fedorov was my favorite player when I first started watching hockey in '96, and he will always be remembered fondly overall for all that he did for the organization and fans, but I still would have to say no to having his jersey up in the rafters; he would have needed a better work ethic and have been less of a prima donna, plus, as others have already pointed out, the manner in which he left in '03 will be a source of animosity for many shame it ended the way it did, he was never the same player after that, and no matter how many times I saw him play on other teams, he always looked so out of place in other teams' jerseys, I don't know it just always looked strange to me to see him not wearing the winged wheel I mean could you have imagined Yzerman wearing a Ducks jersey? or Lidstrom in a Flyers sweater? or even Shanahan in a Rang... oh wait, nevermind

anyway...centcouger (new account?) I think Detroit is still a desirable place for UFA's or nobody would ever come here...ever. There has been plenty of UFA's pass on Detroit throughout the last 20 years, has it made Detroit any less dominant? No, and the fact that Mary Kate and Ashley chose to play close to family (for more money too mind you) does not mean Detroit is not a destination desired by most NHL players. It is only the situation that are in and looking for that leads them to where they go. Ask yourself this if Detroit was such a horrible destination, why is it when players are asked to submit a list of 5 or 6 teams they would waive their NTC/NMC for 95% of the time (if not 100%) Detroit is on their list...Seems to me I rarely see the likes of Minnesota or St. Louis on anyone's list... Sometimes, more cash and family are things that another city cannot compete with...I am good with that, and can understand. I have pride in the fact that, when a UFA does sign here, he RARELY goes anywhere else after, unless it is for one of those reason's, family or just looking to cash in. The ONLY reason Hossa isn't here for 12 years rather than Chicago is the fact that Holland chose Franzine and wasn't sure what Hudler was going to do re-sign or explore RFA, he chose Russia instead and Hossa had already gone due to cap space or lack there of...One mistake Holland will not admit to making.

The Axe: Google and Hockey DB are your friends, research things before you just say something. I know the internet is mostly filled with Porn, bad journalism, and stupid pop up ads, but it has useful parts too. Now this is what has always confused me about this argument; the stats! So what you are saying is Stevie must have scored 3/4 of his goals in the 7 years he played in the 80s? (I know exaggeration, but you get the point) Ok lets be fair to the Feds camp on this one and just compare years they played together on the same team, would that be better? No Ana feds, no 1980s Yzerman stats. Career totals from 1990-91 season until 2002-03 Sergei Fedorov gp g a pt pims plus/minus Playoff gp g a pts pim 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 31 48 79 66 11 -Playoffs 7 1 5 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 32 54 86 72 26 -11 5 5 10 8 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 73 34 53 87 72 33 -7 3 6 9 23 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 82 56 64 120 34 48 -7 1 7 8 6 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 42 20 30 50 24 6 17 -7 17 24 6 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 39 68 107 48 49 -19 2 18 20 10 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 30 33 63 30 29 -20 8 12 20 12 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 21 6 11 17 25 10 -22 10 10 20 12 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 26 37 63 66 -9 10 1 8 9 8 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 68 27 35 62 22 8 -9 4 4 8 4 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 32 37 69 40 12 -6 2 5 7 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 31 37 68 36 20 -23 5 14 19 20 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 47 83 52 15 -4 1 2 3 0 Totals 908 400 554 954 587 276 162 50 113 163 113 Steve Yzerman 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 -2 -Playoffs7 3 3 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 26 -11 3 5 8 12 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 33 -7 4 3 7 4 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 11 -3 1 3 4 0 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 6 -15 4 8 12 0 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 29 -18 8 12 20 4 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 22 -20 7 6 13 4 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 3 -22 6 18 24 22 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 8 -10 9 4 13 0 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 28 -8 0 4 4 0 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 54 18 34 52 18 4 -1 0 0 0 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 52 13 35 48 18 11 -23 6 17 23 10 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 16 2 6 8 8 6 -4 0 1 1 2 864 369 609 978 526 185 149 51 84 135 62 With half a season less hockey played Yzerman has more pts & more assists than feds. Bottom Line Yzerman put up better numbers in fewer games (I will admit Feds scored more goals but less than the gp difference): 90-91 through 02-03 Totals Feds 908 400 554 954 587 276 Stevie 864 369 609 978 526 185 If you look at the first stats the only seasons Feds dominates Yzerman in stats is the years Yzerman played 50 games. They are also Fedorov's only two great seasons. Feds had five 80pt seasons including two 100 pt seasons in this span, Yzerman had six 80 pt seasons and three 100+ point seasons including a 58 g 79 a 137 pt season. Fedorov outscored Yzerman in the playoffs by 28 points in 13 more games. Impressive! Yzerman scored more goals in that period however, but was Feds had far more assists, but had 6 post season were he scored 2 goals or fewer including 93-94 when he scored 1 goal in 7 games while Yzerman missed 4 games, or 00-01 when Yzerman and Shanny had a combined 3 games played while Yzerman put up all 0s in the one game Shanny went all Chuck Woolery (2 &2) in two games, feds played 6 games and put up 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points. This was when the team really need 5 goals and 2 assists from him. Not only was Yzerman on par with your most talented player in the history of the game, he put up better numbers, in the 80s or not. Numbers do not lie, Yzerman was better than Feds (in his prime) and played most of the end of their tenure badly injured. Not only was Yzerman the better statistical player, he was the epitome of what it means to be a Captain and a Red Wing. He played on broken bones while Feds played when he wanted (he was a much more talented Franzen). Many people forget the post seasons in which the Wings relied on Feds because Yzerman and Shanny were banged up, and when feds was the only Horse Det had in the race and he failed to show up. Again Yzerman is a top 10 player statistically in the history of the league: Goals 8th all time 692 Points 6th all time 1755 Assists 7th all time 1063 I know I said I would leave the 80s and the mid 2000s out of this but over his career Yzerman was a 1.16 ppg player, while Feds was .944. Feds is Carmelo Anthony, phenomenal when surrounded by elite talent, unbelievable when he is counted on to be the second or third cog in the wheel. Then when it is all on him he craps out. Yzerman towed the company line, even when faced with trade rumors he did what was best for the org, not him. This is what will prevent Feds from being up in the rafters, these are the rafters in the Joe, not in Colorado where Ray Bourque played 1.5 seasons and got his # retired. The Wings have had a long history of great players, it takes a special player to get his number retired in the Winged Wheel. Had Fed towed the company line a little more, not let his personal matters interfere, not let his ego and wallet interfere, and had he stayed a Wing for his career maybe 91 is in the rafters already. As it is he fails to meet the Team first requirement, as well as the life long Wing requirement( as far as the Lindsey left so blah blah blah, I already addressed that, those players left due to a horrible turn in ownership, not for more money or a chance to be the man). Sorry, no 91 in the rafters. Edit: Wow that was all pretty and formatted until I posted it, then the chart went to poop, glad I cleared it up for you.