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Without wishing to entirely re-open both debates, i think and have always thought you are wrong about the players you are talking about. Partly because you seem to operate primarily in absolutes. Howard (aforementioned) is a goalie worth his contract when fit. Anyone could see Mrazek had a higher ceiling, but when you have one guy proven at around the level you need, and one guy that might be lights out, but has barely played at the highest level, you don't jettison the proven man, even if his upside isn't quite as high. Either way, despite the fact that I've loved Mrazek since within a few months of the pick, equally, you can't bet the house on him yet. There have been plenty of goalies who start big and deteriorate. I don't think Petr will be one, and I expect him to become one of the top 5 in the NHL, but it doesn't make the Howard signing a mistake in anyway. Quincey was never as bad as people thought, and at the time he signed, that was the best option. He's turned out to be just about worth his contract, and no-one from below has done enough to push him out. He broke through to the NHL in LA as an offensive defenceman, and its taken time for him to take on the defensive mode we need him to. He'll likely be gone by the time the finance is an issue anyway. But the wings were NEVER going to give up on a player they invested so much in at the time when he seemed to finally get the system and elevate his play to the desired level. Franzen was both an excellent player and well worth his contract up until last season. Sure he floats, but he is positionally and defensively responsible, puts up points at 45-60 pace every year (even last year), and has great chemistry with Z and Nyquist. It looks like he's done due to concussions, but as an all round player he is a lot better than credited for, and when he gets hot, he can blow teams away. I'll be amazed if Pulks will ever get as good all round as Franzen was 07-13, and I'm very keen on the little finn. So much playing the soothsayer in retrospect when actually your track record is entirely debatable will piss people off.

My god... Training camp/Pre-Season/October can't get here quick enough.

And neither Nyquist nor Tatar looked very good, nor produced more, in their initial call-up seasons. Neither were as good in the AHL. Yet neither had the same kind of doubt that people seem to have for Pulk. I think speed is a part of it. Speed is a very noticeable trait, and tends to make players look better than they really are. But there are a lot of good players in the NHL who don't have great speed. I also think his slapshot works against him, oddly enough. Like it's so good and so effective in the AHL, people don't see anything else. But there is a lot more to his game. He plays well with and without the puck, he's persistent, drives the net, excellent wrister, half-slap, anticipates well, skates hard (even though not blazingly fast), decent stickhandling. He even backchecks and forechecks hard. Will it all translate to success in the NHL? You hardly ever know with any prospect. But I can't remember any prospect who's been this good at this stage with this much negativity.

I believe what he was saying is that 11:68 is 12:08, as there are only 60 seconds in a minute.

You can make that "in the AHL" argument about the vast majority of players. Doesn't really mean a whole lot. I don't share your opinion on how he looked, or that Tatar or Nyquist looked any better. But regardless of eye test opinions, neither was any more effective. Maybe they did get open more, I don't know, and neither do you. The NHL doesn't track getting open as a stat. But if they did, it didn't translate to getting shots on net or scoring any significant amount more. But both have improved significantly since then. It remains to be seen if Pulkkinen will follow suit. But I see no reason to think he can't or isn't likely to. Sure, they have speed that he lacks, but he has a shot that they lack. He'll probably have to play a little differently in the NHL, but not so dramatically different that it should be a problem.

If he is fully healthy, there is zero chance Franzen is sitting in the press box. The only way this happens, is if he plays and plays like garbage.

I know you go in with a high number to start with, but a bit much if you ask me. I'm not sure why I can't cut and paste links or even quote others posts....but there is an article at tsn.ca

None of what you just said is true. I'm not trying to bait, or troll you. Period. I am laughing at how ridiculous your opinions can be. Lat time I checked, that was a healthy part of any debating process. Feel free to reciprocate. If we're talking about this season's roster and Franzen's place on it, then your anti-Franzen bias taints any logical ability to properly slot him into the line-up. The fact that you refer to him in the feminine context is absolutely childish and should provide adequate reason for other members of this forum, including myself, to call you on it, and challenge anything you have to say about the man.

On Pulks specifically, I think if he can hold down a 3rd line place with PP time, he well score on pace for 20 goals...His assist totals will likely be lower, though I'm not as down on his playmaking than others. He has enough about his game to contribute at NHL level, and perhaps has a longer term upside as 30/60 man, but will take a while to adjust. Agree with those that say his wider skillset is underrated, but he is still too guilty of just entering the zone and unleashing the slapper when other things aren't working. Much of his success will depend on who his linemates are. But the guy has the talent to finish that we need.

That is fine, which ever works better. It was always said that Dats loves Abby on his wing so I just always put them together. I wonder what a line of Nyquist-Richards-Tatar would look like out here if Z went back with Dats...I can imagine either way, we would be in for some excitement!

Well, at least there will be "real" things to talk about??? Yes, I'm totally burying Lefty's connects and how underwhelmed we are by them and which prospects/players were asked for and ultimately not traded. I mean, really... who gives a f***?

So what? That year Pulkinnen barely played in the AHL and Larkin hadn't been drafted yet. Mantha was the only prospect other teams would covet at that time. So there's nothing to speculate about. Of course everyone asked for Mantha. What we were debating was this: who were teams asking for THIS year? Larkin, Mantha, or Pulkinnen? We'll never know. Because conversation gets way more intelligent here at LGWs when the season starts?

The league might make him wear a mask though.. to protect the puck from his beard.

Except Larkin has many dimensions as a player (speed, skill, grit, work ethic, character, etc.). Abdlekader? Same sort of thing only more physical, less speed and skill. The early signs point to Mantha having no hustle, grit, or work ethic. You better be filling the net in the AHL if that's the only dimension to your game. I can't see him killing penalties or blocking shots anytime soon. If only we knew someone who knew someone that sort of knew someone within the organization that could give us the real scoop. Oh well.

Yes....he may not played with him all the time, but Nyquist played a hell of a lot more wth Z than Pulk did(if at all) respectively in their first 30-40 games...and more on the PP. Just saying, Nyquist got better icetime in those 11:68 per game than Pulk did in his 8:88....

Plus you could counter the argument and say maybe we called up Jurco TOO early and should have kept him in AHL an extra year because look at his perfomance last year. He came into the roster at much young age than Nyquist and TAtar and his nunbers were disappointing. Just playing devils advocate.

Good example of post-hoc analysis, and largely inaccurate. Nyquist being buried had more to do with signing Weiss and Alfie than Cleary. Plus being unable to dump Sammy. But regardless, we didn't "waste prime years". We wasted 22 games of a player who had 4 goals and 13 points in 40 games (plus 2-5 in 18 playoff games) at that point. And it's debatable if it hurt or not. Doesn't look like Nyquist has suffered at all for it. At the time he was called up, we were 9-6-7 (though we started off 9-4-2 before hitting a stretch where we couldn't finish anyone), pretty much identical point% we finished the season with. Sure, maybe we'd have earned a few more points in those games, then not had to play Boston, and made it to the 2nd round or farther... Or maybe that little extra time in GR was the motivation he needed to do so well that year.

I vaguely remember you suggest Z retire because he was out of gas during the tampa series. 34 year old captain retire who consistently leads team in points year in and year aside from his twin (pav)? Proven player at all levels but ya turned on him. Pulk hasnt proven himself, if anything being skeptical towards an underexperienced player is more justified than turning on someone because they had one bad playoff series. 5 goals in Pulk 31 games wasnt very promising if I was truly unbiased. But I have hope he can do better with 82 games. Hope, not wild assumption. And ill take a bet with you that if Franzen played healthy this season he puts up more points than Pulk.

At least he has a cup

Ok, so Nyquist played 11:68 (12:08 maybe?) and Pulk 9:28 and Pulk had one more goal and only 5 less points. So that proves that much lilke Nyquist, Pulk started slow getting his feet wet. Why is it not air to believe that he will not break out, much like Nyquist when he plays more like Nyquist got to the last two seasons?

I think its funny how folks already say he stinks or is going to stink. He led the entire AHL in points and that is with playing 31 games up here. Nyquist led the AHL in points as well when he first spent some significant time up in Detroit. BTW, in Nyquist's 1st 40 games as a Red Wing, 4 goals, 13 points - Pulk's first 34 games, 5 goals, 8 points. Nyquist played with Z a lot in those first 40 games, Pulk played mostly 4th line (or less) minutes. This guy is not as quite of a playmaker as Nyquist, but he is a pure scorer. I predict a 25-30 goal season for Pulk IF he stays 3rd line or higher and sees significant PP time. His shot is unbelievably fast, unlike the Wings have had since Brett Hull. He will most likely get a 2-3 year $3.5M deal after this season, if not more. Jurco also had 15 goals while playing mostly 4th line minutes. When this guy get back with Sheahan (or even a better center) he too could very well top 25 goals. This is a good thing, but he too will get that $3.5M deal or higher and then things really get sticky with the cap. You know Mrazek is getting at least $5M, Danny D is getting at least Q's $4.75M, Abby with his emergence will most definitely top $3M (he's a UFA, so it may be $4M+) Helm, as well. He has proven that he is at least in the median player salary area, so his modest contract now will be at least $4M next year...this does not add up too well for the cap. You think we are over now? Just wait until next year. IF Franzen, Howard and Ericsson aren't gone this season, they have to go next. There just won't be any cap space to re-sign your players that are your core of the future. s***, I nearly forgot about Sheahan and the raise he will garner. Maybe won't be as significant as others, but he most certainly will top $2M I would think...

No, this is his last year of exemption. His first contract was for the 13-14 season. He was 23 or 22, depending on which date it's based off, but it doesn't matter since either way he got 3 years of exemption. This will be his third and final year. Could go either way. He could have a Jurco-ish season, and not have any leverage to ask for much of a raise, and probably push for another one-year "show me" deal, or he could have a 20g/40p year like Tatar in his first, and ask for $2.5-3M. Considering we're likely to be in cap trouble next year regardless, I would have rather seen a 2-year deal even at a little higher hit. Best case scenario we get an extra cheap year out of him if he doesn't do well this year, but that's not worth the risk of the extra trouble next summer. Plus I don't really like the idea of "best case" meaning a player doesn't do well.

Yeah but did you know he scored 50 goals in a season in juniors?

The problem I have isn't the "content" (I guess this is yours given the soap box there), there is no content when people leave. My problem is more a moderating style that went from far too lax to running this place like a kiddy daycare. Obviously someone missed the memo there's quite a lot of grey area, and given in this thread every time someone suggests they have a problem with the mods the first thing you and one or two other mods do is blame posters, it's evident there's hardly an ounce of introspective reasoning here, it's purely "them vs. us" and rife full of posts like yours talking down to people. I can only wonder what you'll do when you have no posters left to kick around.