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How bad are we if our roster is now finalized?

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LA was comfortably in the playoffs at 95 points last year.

With a 23 game winning streak, one of the best d-men ever, another good d-man in Stuart and Hudler having a career year, the Wings had 102 points.

I don't see how the Wings will be any better than 90-93 points with this current roster right now.

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All I hear is wah wah wah. I'll be smiling in May when we are in the playoffs yet again.

I wish I shared your optimism.

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Your position seems to be that unless someone can provide concrete examples of players that were available, trades that almost definitely would go through, and would almost certainly improve the team, they shouldn't complain.

That's an absurd expectation. At the time who would've predicted that Holland could get Stuart from the Kings for a 2nd and 4th pick? Or taking the Kings as an example, who would've thought they'd get Richards for Simmonds, Schenn and a pick? Or trade a defenseman they'd recently signed long term to bring in Carter? And that both of those trades would be huge factors in their Cup win?

It's likely you would've shot down all of those trades as unrealistic or wouldn't improve the team. But who the hell knows until they actually happen?

If I could provide those kind of examples beforehand, I'd take Holland's friggin job. I'm not complaining because I think he sucks. I'm complaining because I think he's one of the best GM's in the NHL, so he better be able to come up with some moves that the average fan couldn't know about.

It's awful hard to provide irrefutable evidence for a trade that didn't happen. That doesn't mean I can't be unhappy with what Holland is saying and doing. For now I'm withholding full judgment until the summer is over. But Lidstrom retiring is something he and management should've started planning for 10 years ago. Looking at our blueline right now, it sure doesn't feel like they did.

Your position seems to be that if Holland made the move, it was the right one. If he didn't, it wouldn't have made the team better or it would've cost too much. The only thing I've heard you complain about regarding Holland was Ericsson, which you were wrong about.

For the record, you can't plan for what happened to Konstantinov OR Fischer, let alone both... Both, were, or were on their way to being, a top 2 defenseman, Konstantinov, a yearly Norris hopeful... Most teams would not have recovered from those losses ever, let alone gone on to win cups shortly thereafter...

Edited by stevkrause
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I'd rather the Wild just not make the playoffs, if we did pay them in the 1st round, we'd have to deal with you know who for a couple of weeks...

I don't think we suck, but we lack a legit top 6 scorer, I am afraid to play the wait and see game with Brunner and Nyquist...just my nerves....argh!

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I like turtles

Seriously, I keep saying this, it seems there is no middle ground here... its either 'the Wings are fine and they will win forever and ever and ever' or 'The Wings better start scouting the top draft candidates now, because they are a lottery team'. This team is clearly a bubble team as it stands right now, its neither good enough to be considered elite nor bad enough to be considered a bottom feeder. As I said in other threads, I am afraid this team will become like Calgary, coming up a little short, not making it in the playoffs, or getting bounced early, and the management never seeing the forest for the trees and addressing the problems because they are always 'that close' to being there.

Edited by Shaman464
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It's been interesting reading all of this on the sidelines. But let me throw this out there, do you consider the Flames as likely to make the playoffs? If you look at the current rosters of Calgary and Detroit as they stand right now... Their is a lot of similarity, some proven players, some roster fillers and some younger guys getting a shot. Personally I don't think either team will be consistent enough to make the playoffs, they will be close, fight to the end but simply not be talented or deep enough to make it.

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We'll know well before the playoffs if the new kids have what it takes or not. Sure, sometimes guys show up for the playoffs, or a new kid just clicks at the right time, but speaking in general terms, we'll know by then what we seriously need.

That said, the beginning of the season might be a bit rough.

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It's been interesting reading all of this on the sidelines. But let me throw this out there, do you consider the Flames as likely to make the playoffs? If you look at the current rosters of Calgary and Detroit as they stand right now... Their is a lot of similarity, some proven players, some roster fillers and some younger guys getting a shot. Personally I don't think either team will be consistent enough to make the playoffs, they will be close, fight to the end but simply not be talented or deep enough to make it.

More comparable to the Blue Jackets than the Flames. Who is supposed to be the #1 pick next year?

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Is it just me, or do teams that go deep into the playoffs not do so because of good defense, but because of good defense and a strong defensive forwards? I mean Lidstrom and Scott Niedermayer are the only two D men to win the Conn Smythe in the last 10 years and that was for their offense. Whereas a lot of the forwards who have won it have been defensively minded in their series (think Z, Toews, Richards - again thinking last 10 years). I mean more Goaltenders have won it that defensemen. I understand good D is still vital (that goal for NSH this year still haunts my thoughts... just watching all 3 players follow the puck... oh goodness) but if we get a good solid defensive structure and the players get some confidence in them going into the playoffs, does anything still think we could steal a round or two by having players like Z, or Dats, or Helm, or Flip, Abby, etc playing strong on D as well?

That and Jimmy keeping this season's early numbers rolling all year. Just looking for some positivity as I think we still have the best group of 2-way forwards in this league

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Is it just me, or do teams that go deep into the playoffs not do so because of good defense, but because of good defense and a strong defensive forwards? I mean Lidstrom and Scott Niedermayer are the only two D men to win the Conn Smythe in the last 10 years and that was for their offense. Whereas a lot of the forwards who have won it have been defensively minded in their series (think Z, Toews, Richards - again thinking last 10 years). I mean more Goaltenders have won it that defensemen. I understand good D is still vital (that goal for NSH this year still haunts my thoughts... just watching all 3 players follow the puck... oh goodness) but if we get a good solid defensive structure and the players get some confidence in them going into the playoffs, does anything still think we could steal a round or two by having players like Z, or Dats, or Helm, or Flip, Abby, etc playing strong on D as well?

That and Jimmy keeping this season's early numbers rolling all year. Just looking for some positivity as I think we still have the best group of 2-way forwards in this league

I think the Conn Smyth is a bit of a tricky trophy. The easiest way for the masses (fans, media etc.) to notice a defenseman playing well in the SC finals is for that player to put up points. People have long said that Lidstrom was at his best when you didn't even notice him out there on the ice. I think that statement is generally true for defenseman (unless they are purely offensive d-men). You'll never see completely stay at home d-men win the Conn Smyth because it's not flashy. Goaltenders are in the spot light when they make huge saves. Forwards are in the spot light when they not only shut down opposing players but put up points themselves. I think the trend of not seeing too many d-men win the CS is more a product of the way the game is viewed, not player.

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We're so bad that even Crymson and Nightfall probably believe deep down that we'll miss the playoffs.

:lol: - good luck in getting either of them to admit it.

Seriously, I keep saying this, it seems there is no middle ground here... its either 'the Wings are fine and they will win forever and ever and ever' or 'The Wings better start scouting the top draft candidates now, because they are a lottery team'. This team is clearly a bubble team as it stands right now, its neither good enough to be considered elite nor bad enough to be considered a bottom feeder. As I said in other threads, I am afraid this team will become like Calgary, coming up a little short, not making it in the playoffs, or getting bounced early, and the management never seeing the forest for the trees and addressing the problems because they are always 'that close' to being there.

Agreed.

Right now I feel the Wings are a team that can finish anywhere from 7th to 10th in the Western Conference.

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I think the Conn Smyth is a bit of a tricky trophy. The easiest way for the masses (fans, media etc.) to notice a defenseman playing well in the SC finals is for that player to put up points. People have long said that Lidstrom was at his best when you didn't even notice him out there on the ice. I think that statement is generally true for defenseman (unless they are purely offensive d-men). You'll never see completely stay at home d-men win the Conn Smyth because it's not flashy. Goaltenders are in the spot light when they make huge saves. Forwards are in the spot light when they not only shut down opposing players but put up points themselves. I think the trend of not seeing too many d-men win the CS is more a product of the way the game is viewed, not player.

Yeah I get what you mean. But consider more 2 way forwards winning it in the last 10 years than scorers (Malkin being the only real winner who purely scored arguably), do you think a forward focusing on D is the most important thing in a playoff series? Because like I said we're still probably the best with 2 way depth. We just need our defense to play strong and sensible and limit errors mainly I'd say, and we could still be OK. Not saying we're 'contenders' like we've been in the past, but really don't think it's all doom and gloom like we're going to completely miss out. There are occasions where we can practically put out 5 guys who can all play D. Which I think is still pretty darn good.

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Right now I feel the Wings are a team that can finish anywhere from 7th to 10th in the Western Conference.

This is how I feel, basically. I said in the other thread that I thought we were "comfortably mediocre", meaning we weren't going to be #1, but we weren't going to be dead last either. I think for this team as presently constructed to make the playoffs and stay in the playoffs, they're going to have to overperform, and I don't know if they can.

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Your position seems to be that unless someone can provide concrete examples of players that were available, trades that almost definitely would go through, and would almost certainly improve the team, they shouldn't complain.

This is not true. The fellow said he had examples. I'm only asking him to share them.

Whatever the case, there are a very limited number of defensemen who could be suitable replacements for Lidstrom. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for one to name whom they feel would have been plausible pick-ups for this purpose.

It's likely you would've shot down all of those trades as unrealistic or wouldn't improve the team.

I don't think it's fair to conclude that. I can't know what I would think of them if I haven't heard them.

If I could provide those kind of examples beforehand, I'd take Holland's friggin job. I'm not complaining because I think he sucks. I'm complaining because I think he's one of the best GM's in the NHL, so he better be able to come up with some moves that the average fan couldn't know about.

This is a discussion forum. If we were all content to simply sit and watch, we wouldn't be discussing anything. As is, possible scenarios are discussed on an daily basis here.

Your position seems to be that if Holland made the move, it was the right one. If he didn't, it wouldn't have made the team better or it would've cost too much. The only thing I've heard you complain about regarding Holland was Ericsson, which you were wrong about.

That's not my position at all. I do realize that I spend a lot of time defending Holland on here, but that doesn't mean that I believe he's perfect. I simply believe that he's one of the best out there and should not be called an atrocious factor for the Wings, particularly over the matters that aren't reasonably within his control. I certainly feel that he has made mistakes. The 2009 offseason very much stands out in that category.

As for Ericsson, I still don't like how the guy plays.

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Alright, so I've been thinking about this, because much like the majority of fans on here I've been anxiously awaiting some exciting news. If you take a step back and look at what we've already got to work with, it's really not as bad as some are making it out to be. Perhaps after a few boring off-seasons we were all just itching for some big splash - something exciting, not necessarily because we needed it, but because we'd kinda earned it.

There's no denying the fact that we are weaker on D than we were last year. Suter or no Suter, this was inevitable - Lidstrom alone makes this so. Stuart, as much as some liked to bash him, was great and will be missed. This only adds another large hole in our defense. We could use one more depth defenseman especially given the departure of both Exelby and Janik. Now that they are gone, if there is an injury, which there almost always is, we really have nobody to call up. As sickening as it is to even say it - someone as crappy as Lebda would suffice as his only purpose would be 'bandage.' Luckily we still have a few viable options via free agency, not to mention the fact that we have WAY too many forwards and will likely trade a few for something. If that something isn't picks, it should be a depth defenceman.

I see a lot of complaining regarding Quincey and Smith. Yes, Q was not what we'd expected after the trade deadline, but keep in mind he was really good in Colorado and we were all a bit sour over losing him. He is better than he showed, and perhaps it was merely the adjustment from one team to another. I would expect an impressive effort from him this season and I feel that our first round pick was most certainly not wasted. Smith - what can be said about the kid? He is our best prospect, and our prospect pool is pretty damn decent. Rated as high as 4th was it? If teams like Philly can just throw their underripe prospects into the roster and see results, I would expect good things. I already liked what I saw last year and I, like many, didn't want to see him sent back down. Did these two fill the gaps left by both Lidstrom and Stuart? Of course not. Will they keep our team competitive? Bet your ass they will.

As far as forwards go... well, we may not have acquired any flashy free agents, but our team has improved. We lost Hudler - Jiri Hudler. With the exception of Eva and maybe two other people, he will not be missed very much. He wasn't as bad as we made him out to be, but there's the whole KHL thing, and oh yeah he's the smallest guy on the team. Sammy will not only replace the offence Hudler took with him, but will bring size and grit. Judging by about half of the rosters I see from various posters, it seems most of us have forgotten about the acquisition of Damien Brunner. He was the winger version of Schultz, and nobody really gave two craps when we learned of his interest in Detroit. He is a gamble, but then again so is Alex Semin. He could very well out score Hudler, and although unlikely, score more goals than Parise, who was signed for like 6 million more than Brunner. We don't know how well his game will translate into the NHL, but the potential is there, and that, to me, is as exciting a signing as any. We also have Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo may have inadvertently caused the death of miscellaneous computer hardware by signing here, but he will also cause death to those who f*** with our young guys, which is my next point.

We need to give our young prospects a shot in the NHL. There's a reason why most of you wouldn't want Nyquist included in a trade; He is the real deal. I don't understand how we can discourage trading them for proven players such as Nash or Ryan, yet be perfectly content with letting them rot in the AHL while we sign DOAN or whoever else. Doan is great, but he is old and he is not ours. For every Mueller, Prust or Doan we sign, a prospect loses his wings. For another season at least... Babcock guaranteed Brunner a spot. Tootoo is not sitting out at that salary, and neither will Samuelsson. We already have too many forwards, so as far as Doan and Semin go, we really don't need them. Nyquist is ready for the NHL and he will only become as great as he has been projected to be if we give him the chance.

Our team may not be stacked, but it will make the playoffs. We lost out on the Thunder Buddy sweepstakes, but we landed Brunner. This will be an exciting season and it could be full of pleasant surprises which will benefit our team in the long run. All we need is more depth on the back end and Holland will address this. The sky is not falling.

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tl;dr

Again, this is all well and good, but, still way too many "IFS" for it to be anything more than a very optimistic assessment of the team. There is a real possibility this team finishes on the outside looking in, as I keep explaining, they are not a lock for the playoffs, just like they are not a lock for missing them.

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Alright, so I've been thinking about this, because much like the majority of fans on here I've been anxiously awaiting some exciting news. If you take a step back and look at what we've already got to work with, it's really not as bad as some are making it out to be. Perhaps after a few boring off-seasons we were all just itching for some big splash - something exciting, not necessarily because we needed it, but because we'd kinda earned it.

There's no denying the fact that we are weaker on D than we were last year. Suter or no Suter, this was inevitable - Lidstrom alone makes this so. Stuart, as much as some liked to bash him, was great and will be missed. This only adds another large hole in our defense. We could use one more depth defenseman especially given the departure of both Exelby and Janik. Now that they are gone, if there is an injury, which there almost always is, we really have nobody to call up. As sickening as it is to even say it - someone as crappy as Lebda would suffice as his only purpose would be 'bandage.' Luckily we still have a few viable options via free agency, not to mention the fact that we have WAY too many forwards and will likely trade a few for something. If that something isn't picks, it should be a depth defenceman.

I see a lot of complaining regarding Quincey and Smith. Yes, Q was not what we'd expected after the trade deadline, but keep in mind he was really good in Colorado and we were all a bit sour over losing him. He is better than he showed, and perhaps it was merely the adjustment from one team to another. I would expect an impressive effort from him this season and I feel that our first round pick was most certainly not wasted. Smith - what can be said about the kid? He is our best prospect, and our prospect pool is pretty damn decent. Rated as high as 4th was it? If teams like Philly can just throw their underripe prospects into the roster and see results, I would expect good things. I already liked what I saw last year and I, like many, didn't want to see him sent back down. Did these two fill the gaps left by both Lidstrom and Stuart? Of course not. Will they keep our team competitive? Bet your ass they will.

As far as forwards go... well, we may not have acquired any flashy free agents, but our team has improved. We lost Hudler - Jiri Hudler. With the exception of Eva and maybe two other people, he will not be missed very much. He wasn't as bad as we made him out to be, but there's the whole KHL thing, and oh yeah he's the smallest guy on the team. Sammy will not only replace the offence Hudler took with him, but will bring size and grit. Judging by about half of the rosters I see from various posters, it seems most of us have forgotten about the acquisition of Damien Brunner. He was the winger version of Schultz, and nobody really gave two craps when we learned of his interest in Detroit. He is a gamble, but then again so is Alex Semin. He could very well out score Hudler, and although unlikely, score more goals than Parise, who was signed for like 6 million more than Brunner. We don't know how well his game will translate into the NHL, but the potential is there, and that, to me, is as exciting a signing as any. We also have Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo may have inadvertently caused the death of miscellaneous computer hardware by signing here, but he will also cause death to those who f*** with our young guys, which is my next point.

We need to give our young prospects a shot in the NHL. There's a reason why most of you wouldn't want Nyquist included in a trade; He is the real deal. I don't understand how we can discourage trading them for proven players such as Nash or Ryan, yet be perfectly content with letting them rot in the AHL while we sign DOAN or whoever else. Doan is great, but he is old and he is not ours. For every Mueller, Prust or Doan we sign, a prospect loses his wings. For another season at least... Babcock guaranteed Brunner a spot. Tootoo is not sitting out at that salary, and neither will Samuelsson. We already have too many forwards, so as far as Doan and Semin go, we really don't need them. Nyquist is ready for the NHL and he will only become as great as he has been projected to be if we give him the chance.

Our team may not be stacked, but it will make the playoffs. We lost out on the Thunder Buddy sweepstakes, but we landed Brunner. This will be an exciting season and it could be full of pleasant surprises which will benefit our team in the long run. All we need is more depth on the back end and Holland will address this. The sky is not falling.

Preach on fellow Tool fan!

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This is not true. The fellow said he had examples. I'm only asking him to share them.

Whatever the case, there are a very limited number of defensemen who could be suitable replacements for Lidstrom. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for one to name whom they feel would have been plausible pick-ups for this purpose.

That misrepresents people's arguments here, which has the not-unintended effect of making their position even more difficult to prove. Replacing Lidstrom is pretty much impossible. I don't think anyone expected Holland to go out and replace one of the best D-men who's ever played the game. Even getting Suter wouldn't have done that. But that's not the same as saying he could do more to improve the defense and could have better prepared for Lidstrom's eventual retirement.

And you may not think it's an unreasonable request, but the reality is it's awfully difficult to prove something that didn't happen. Which not coincidentally also puts you in a pretty advantageous position to argue from. You get to defend what actually happened but expect someone to build a concrete case for some hypothetical alternative that was both possible and would improve the team. It's like if the Wings lost a game and someone here was complaining about their effort, expecting them to name a shot that someone could have taken that almost certainly would have scored.

I don't think it's fair to conclude that. I can't know what I would think of them if I haven't heard them.

True. I was just making an educated guess based on every response you've ever had to someone proposing a move that Holland could have made.

This is a discussion forum. If we were all content to simply sit and watch, we wouldn't be discussing anything. As is, possible scenarios are discussed on an daily basis here.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the portion of my post you quoted or why you feel the need to inform a moderator here as to what the purpose of this board is.

It's a point you should take to heart though. As you make the obvious point, this is a hockey discussion board. So people will come here to express their displeasure with Holland if they feel like it. That makes perfect sense to me, even if I don't agree with them. They dont' have to construct an argument that meets your standards in order to be able to criticize Holland, or anyone on the Wings for that matter.

That's not my position at all. I do realize that I spend a lot of time defending Holland on here, but that doesn't mean that I believe he's perfect. I simply believe that he's one of the best out there and should not be called an atrocious factor for the Wings, particularly over the matters that aren't reasonably within his control. I certainly feel that he has made mistakes. The 2009 offseason very much stands out in that category.

As for Ericsson, I still don't like how the guy plays.

What should Holland have done in 2009? Who should he have signed? Using 2009, you could set an example here to show others how to properly build a case for criticizing Holland.

As for Ericsson, considering he was drafted dead last and a converted defenseman, I would've thought you'd consider him one of Holland's greater successes. Ericsson was among the better d-men this season, especially in the playoffs. Holland took a player who was basically an afterthought and now has a #4/5 D-man who can play 18+ minutes a night.

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Alright, so I've been thinking about this, because much like the majority of fans on here I've been anxiously awaiting some exciting news. If you take a step back and look at what we've already got to work with, it's really not as bad as some are making it out to be. Perhaps after a few boring off-seasons we were all just itching for some big splash - something exciting, not necessarily because we needed it, but because we'd kinda earned it.

There's no denying the fact that we are weaker on D than we were last year. Suter or no Suter, this was inevitable - Lidstrom alone makes this so. Stuart, as much as some liked to bash him, was great and will be missed. This only adds another large hole in our defense. We could use one more depth defenseman especially given the departure of both Exelby and Janik. Now that they are gone, if there is an injury, which there almost always is, we really have nobody to call up. As sickening as it is to even say it - someone as crappy as Lebda would suffice as his only purpose would be 'bandage.' Luckily we still have a few viable options via free agency, not to mention the fact that we have WAY too many forwards and will likely trade a few for something. If that something isn't picks, it should be a depth defenceman.

I see a lot of complaining regarding Quincey and Smith. Yes, Q was not what we'd expected after the trade deadline, but keep in mind he was really good in Colorado and we were all a bit sour over losing him. He is better than he showed, and perhaps it was merely the adjustment from one team to another. I would expect an impressive effort from him this season and I feel that our first round pick was most certainly not wasted. Smith - what can be said about the kid? He is our best prospect, and our prospect pool is pretty damn decent. Rated as high as 4th was it? If teams like Philly can just throw their underripe prospects into the roster and see results, I would expect good things. I already liked what I saw last year and I, like many, didn't want to see him sent back down. Did these two fill the gaps left by both Lidstrom and Stuart? Of course not. Will they keep our team competitive? Bet your ass they will.

As far as forwards go... well, we may not have acquired any flashy free agents, but our team has improved. We lost Hudler - Jiri Hudler. With the exception of Eva and maybe two other people, he will not be missed very much. He wasn't as bad as we made him out to be, but there's the whole KHL thing, and oh yeah he's the smallest guy on the team. Sammy will not only replace the offence Hudler took with him, but will bring size and grit. Judging by about half of the rosters I see from various posters, it seems most of us have forgotten about the acquisition of Damien Brunner. He was the winger version of Schultz, and nobody really gave two craps when we learned of his interest in Detroit. He is a gamble, but then again so is Alex Semin. He could very well out score Hudler, and although unlikely, score more goals than Parise, who was signed for like 6 million more than Brunner. We don't know how well his game will translate into the NHL, but the potential is there, and that, to me, is as exciting a signing as any. We also have Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo may have inadvertently caused the death of miscellaneous computer hardware by signing here, but he will also cause death to those who f*** with our young guys, which is my next point.

We need to give our young prospects a shot in the NHL. There's a reason why most of you wouldn't want Nyquist included in a trade; He is the real deal. I don't understand how we can discourage trading them for proven players such as Nash or Ryan, yet be perfectly content with letting them rot in the AHL while we sign DOAN or whoever else. Doan is great, but he is old and he is not ours. For every Mueller, Prust or Doan we sign, a prospect loses his wings. For another season at least... Babcock guaranteed Brunner a spot. Tootoo is not sitting out at that salary, and neither will Samuelsson. We already have too many forwards, so as far as Doan and Semin go, we really don't need them. Nyquist is ready for the NHL and he will only become as great as he has been projected to be if we give him the chance.

Our team may not be stacked, but it will make the playoffs. We lost out on the Thunder Buddy sweepstakes, but we landed Brunner. This will be an exciting season and it could be full of pleasant surprises which will benefit our team in the long run. All we need is more depth on the back end and Holland will address this. The sky is not falling.

f*** me

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As for Ericsson, considering he was drafted dead last and a converted defenseman, I would've thought you'd consider him one of Holland's greater successes. Ericsson was among the better d-men this season, especially in the playoffs. Holland took a player who was basically an afterthought and now has a #4/5 D-man who can play 18+ minutes a night.

If I wasn't so enamored with my current sig, I'd have found a new one right here.

E came out of nowhere, wowed us, and then became normal for a guy of his age and experience. I have faith that he will grow as he is given more responsibility and gets more experience, but even if he doesn't, he is still servicable.

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I keep seeing Brunner's name all over LGW and some place him in the top 6 even. I admit that I had never heard of the guy until he was signed, but I'm still confident that he will have a hard time cracking the roster, let alone play top 6 minutes.

He might have been the top scorer in the Swiss league and all, but frankly that doesn't compare to the NHL by any means. For example one look at Brunner's teammates this past season will show that NHL familiar's Josh Holden and Glen Metropolit posted similar numbers as Brunner over the past three seasons. Granted, Brunner is a lot younger, but still I think it says something as Holden struggled to crack the NHL rosters, while Metropolit was a journeyman good for about 30 points with the Bruins, the Thrashers and the Canadians.

I would be surprised if Brunner did not spend most of the season in GR.

You are spot on Barnes... His time may be limited and will be brought up from GR at times... He needs to get use to playing is NA first and transitioned.

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