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wings4thecup06

Dan Boyle's rights traded to the Islanders…..

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Mike Green has a higher Corsi than Ryan Suter, is he "better" too?

Also, both Dekeyser and Kronwall had more non-powerplay points. Kronwall has 24 five on five points and Dekeyser had 18 five on five and 1 shorthanded point. So that's false too.

Glad I am 6'4" because I would take a dump on that also. This thread is about Boyle; he would be good for a year if no other option is available and if he would take a year.

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Mike Green has a higher Corsi than Ryan Suter, is he "better" too?

Also, both Dekeyser and Kronwall had more non-powerplay points. Kronwall has 24 five on five points and Dekeyser had 18 five on five and 1 shorthanded point. So that's false too.

For the love of god use stats. Like accurate stats.

Regular season stats has kronwall at 19 smith at 18 dekeyser at 15

http://www.extraskater.com/team/detroit-red-wings/2013

Forgot to say...unless you struggle with reading the English language where I was talking about 5 on 5 stats nothing else.

Edited by DeGraa55

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I don't really get all the love for people crying out to acquire Niskanen. For starters the guy is going to want a monster contract that ultimately he isn't worth, and secondly I think we'd be better off going with a veteran (ala Boyle) and bringing up Ouellet. Better yet, trading Kindl. Free agency isn't the cure for everything. It's a very overpriced auction, and at the end of the day, it's not like there's a Ryan Suter out there for us to snap up.

When you say Niskanen wants a monster contract are you talking money or term?? or both?

Reality: Boyle is going to want just as much cash as Niskanen (5 Million +)

As far as term goes think about it this way: You sign a 27 year old defenseman who's finding his groove in the NHL to a 5 year contract. Guess what? In five years he'll still be a year younger than Kronwall is now. (...and at that point Kronwall is 38 and we'll all be calling for him to retire.)

I'm all for taking the 27 year old for 5 years who can grow and bolster our future over a 38 year old stop-gap.

Acquiring either Niskanen or Boyle in the over-priced auction known as Free-Agent Frenzy (yes, they're both up for auction) would NOT hinder us from bringing up XO.

Trading Kindl. Duh?! :D

Free agency just like Trade Deadline is a weapon the GMs have in order to improve their team. You can't build a winner solely with draft picks you can't build a winner on UFA either so the perfect balance is key here. Is Niskanen the next Suter ? No way but he certainly is a guy that could help the Wings defense out a lot more than let's say a guy like boy could. Nobody - except our scouts, Blashhill - knows if the GR defenders are ready or not.

As for overpaying well that's the nature of UFA, these players have the choice on where they want to play it's basically for most of them their last big contract so yes overpayment is part of it. I would be fine with 5 mill per for 6 - 7 years for Niskanen.

I don't think W4tC06 was suggesting that Niskanen is comparable to Suter.

The thing that is essential in comparing those two: Niskanen won't command the $$ that Suter was able to.

Acquiring Niskanen via Free Agency only creates more depth at defense which isn't a bad thing. What's the worst thing that happens? You trade some defensemen. Niskanen is an NHL proven defenseman. Sproul/XO/Marchenko/etc. excellent prospects, but unproven commodities. $5mill for 6 or 7... sure. or $5.5 for 5.

Smith hasn't been used as an offensive defenseman, and Kindl hasn't provided anything. I know that on paper they're supposed to be X, but in reality they're not. We need someone who is a bonafide offensive defenseman.

And to all the people who think Boyle is our salvation, he wouldn't really change the dynamic of our defense all that much. He'd just replace Quincey. Maybe he wouldn't be as bad, but he doesn't necessarily make us GOOD, and that, after all, is the whole point.

While I'm not on board with signing Boyle, I'm willing to give Boyle the benefit of the doubt that he's better than Quincey. Boyle over Quincey would certainly help our defense in the department that we need most... puck-movement that leads to scoring.

Edited by e_prime

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When you say Niskanen wants a monster contract are you talking money or term?? or both?

Reality: Boyle is going to want just as much cash as Niskanen (5 Million +)

As far as term goes think about it this way: You sign a 27 year old defenseman who's finding his groove in the NHL to a 5 year contract. Guess what? In five years he'll still be a year younger than Kronwall is now. (...and at that point Kronwall is 38 and we'll all be calling for him to retire.)

I'm all for taking the 27 year old for 5 years who can grow and bolster our future over a 38 year old stop-gap.

Acquiring either Niskanen or Boyle in the over-priced auction known as Free-Agent Frenzy (yes, they're both up for auction) would hinder us from bringing up XO.

Trading Kindl. Duh?! :D

I don't think W4tC06 was suggesting that Niskanen is comparable to Suter.

The thing that is essential in comparing those two: Niskanen won't command the $$ that Suter was able to.

Acquiring Niskanen via Free Agency only creates more depth at defense which isn't a bad thing. What's the worst thing that happens? You trade some defensemen. Niskanen is an NHL proven defenseman. Sproul/XO/Marchenko/etc. excellent prospects, but unproven commodities. $5mill for 6 or 7... sure. or $5.5 for 5.

True. Acquiring Niskanen at this price and term will be a risk for sure, but we have to take some risks if we want to build a cup contender. No sane GM will let someone like Niskanen walk for nothing if he is already a proven #2 D-Man.

e_prime likes this

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I'll just say it now. I would love to add Boyle and/or niskanen. As long as we don't have to pay $6m plus for either.

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I'll just say it now. I would love to add Boyle and/or niskanen. As long as we don't have to pay $6m plus for either.

Niskanen has emerged as the top Ufa so it must be a very nice contract. The question is how much are Gms willing to pay for him I think something like 5,4 with an nmc for 6 years could be a starting point

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All this talk about trading kindl and signing Niskanen is hilarious! Not because I don't agree, Kindl needs to go and Niskanen would be much better than Kindl, but hilarious because Holland drafted Kindl ahead of niskanen in 2005. :lol: So since Holland never atones for his mistakes, he will probably NEVER replace Kindl with Niskanen. I don't want to hear that Kindl was the best available defenseman at the time of our pick either. It was a wasted 1st rounder back then, he fooled us a little bit two season's ago and actually digressed to worse than what he was early in his career. I hated him then, he fooled me once, and quickly went back to my hate list. As did Q.

I think Boyle for 2 years would be nice, Niskanen (if we were to sign him) for 5 years would also be a great addition to our club. But you cannot re-sign Q and Kindl must be dealt or bought out or waived...he has got to go.

Kronwall - Smith

Ericsson - Niskanen

Dekeyser - Boyle

Lashoff

like Boyle or not, and I am on the fence on him, I would rather have Morris, but that is a much better defense than we had last season...

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All this talk about trading kindl and signing Niskanen is hilarious! Not because I don't agree, Kindl needs to go and Niskanen would be much better than Kindl, but hilarious because Holland drafted Kindl ahead of niskanen in 2005. :lol: So since Holland never atones for his mistakes, he will probably NEVER replace Kindl with Niskanen. I don't want to hear that Kindl was the best available defenseman at the time of our pick either. It was a wasted 1st rounder back then, he fooled us a little bit two season's ago and actually digressed to worse than what he was early in his career. I hated him then, he fooled me once, and quickly went back to my hate list. As did Q.

I think Boyle for 2 years would be nice, Niskanen (if we were to sign him) for 5 years would also be a great addition to our club. But you cannot re-sign Q and Kindl must be dealt or bought out or waived...he has got to go.

Kronwall - Smith

Ericsson - Niskanen

Dekeyser - Boyle

Lashoff

like Boyle or not, and I am on the fence on him, I would rather have Morris, but that is a much better defense than we had last season...

You don't want to hear that hindsight is 20/20?

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For the love of god use stats. Like accurate stats.

Regular season stats has kronwall at 19 smith at 18 dekeyser at 15

http://www.extraskater.com/team/detroit-red-wings/2013

Forgot to say...unless you struggle with reading the English language where I was talking about 5 on 5 stats nothing else.

Here's my source, I know it's probably not as "accurate" as you'd like but it is the actual NHL website so it should do. If you still think Smith scored more even strength points than any defenseman on the team, I don't know what to tell you.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142DETDADALL&sort=evenStrengthPoints&viewName=points

Finally, I notice that you keep ignoring the part of my point where I criticize Corsi stats because they're heavily skewed toward offense but I'll try again. If Corsi numbers truly tell which player is "better", then how do you explain Mike Green having a higher Corsi than Ryan Suter and David Booth having a higher Corsi than John Tavares?

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According to Pierre LeBrun, Garth Snow is now shopping the rights to Dan Boyle. Surprise surprise. Should we trade our 7th round pick?

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According to Pierre LeBrun, Garth Snow is now shopping the rights to Dan Boyle. Surprise surprise. Should we trade our 7th round pick?

I would assuming he shows interest in signing here. We need a defenseman who can make that first pass out of the defensive zone and Boyle is certainly capable of that. Prices will go up for players if we wait to sign a Niskanen. I'd rather get a guy signed prior to July 1st.

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I would assuming he shows interest in signing here. We need a defenseman who can make that first pass out of the defensive zone and Boyle is certainly capable of that. Prices will go up for players if we wait to sign a Niskanen. I'd rather get a guy signed prior to July 1st.

Unless there are a number of sleepers we're interested in move the 7th

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Here's my source, I know it's probably not as "accurate" as you'd like but it is the actual NHL website so it should do. If you still think Smith scored more even strength points than any defenseman on the team, I don't know what to tell you.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142DETDADALL&sort=evenStrengthPoints&viewName=points

Finally, I notice that you keep ignoring the part of my point where I criticize Corsi stats because they're heavily skewed toward offense but I'll try again. If Corsi numbers truly tell which player is "better", then how do you explain Mike Green having a higher Corsi than Ryan Suter and David Booth having a higher Corsi than John Tavares?

Let me ask you this. Do you watch baseball? If so do you use WAR or just look at say BA and HR?

Me I use the eyeball test. I can watch a player and see if they're worth a darn or not. If you watch trout you can SEE he is a hell of a player.

Same with miggy. I don't need to look at any stats to know that they just help support the argument.

Same thing in hockey datsyuk to me is awesome. But if all you care about is goals for example....well he isn't that great that. That's why to me corsi stats are just used in an argument but they just like any stat can't be the ONLY argument. And using "the eyeball test" doesn't make a good argument cause there's no real evidence behind it.

But if you look at day time on ice, the trash smith was paired with, and 5 on 5 stats and he was ONLY ONE behind kronwall says a lot! But using the eyeball test on say his defense he is well decent to good but is behind kronwall Ericsson and dekeyser but offensively ahead of them all. And he is improving.

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If I'm understanding the arguments correctly, we should sign Dan Boyle because he'll give us a right handed puck mover (but not one good enough to help us advance in the playoffs), and he'll provide leadership (but not any more than you already had in Kronwall, Ericsson, and Quincey).

I'm sold.


Let me ask you this. Do you watch baseball? If so do you use WAR or just look at say BA and HR?

Me I use the eyeball test. I can watch a player and see if they're worth a darn or not. If you watch trout you can SEE he is a hell of a player.
Same with miggy. I don't need to look at any stats to know that they just help support the argument.

Same thing in hockey datsyuk to me is awesome. But if all you care about is goals for example....well he isn't that great that. That's why to me corsi stats are just used in an argument but they just like any stat can't be the ONLY argument. And using "the eyeball test" doesn't make a good argument cause there's no real evidence behind it.

But if you look at day time on ice, the trash smith was paired with, and 5 on 5 stats and he was ONLY ONE behind kronwall says a lot! But using the eyeball test on say his defense he is well decent to good but is behind kronwall Ericsson and dekeyser but offensively ahead of them all. And he is improving.

Your eyeball test says Smith is awesome in the same way that your eyeball test says Miguel Cabrera is awesome. Gotcha. I'm not going to argue with you about what your eyeball test tells you. You win.

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If I'm understanding the arguments correctly, we should sign Dan Boyle because he'll give us a right handed puck mover (but not one good enough to help us advance in the playoffs), and he'll provide leadership (but not any more than you already had in Kronwall, Ericsson, and Quincey).

I'm sold.

Not a whole lot of Shea Webers lying around

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Not a whole lot of Shea Webers lying around

Agreed. So rather that do something just to do it, why not give the spot to the most deserving kids and let them gain valuable experience which WILL help us in the future. Lord knows what 82 games under Babcock's tutelage would do for Ryan Sproul's development.

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Agreed. So rather that do something just to do it, why not give the spot to the most deserving kids and let them gain valuable experience which WILL help us in the future. Lord knows what 82 games under Babcock's tutelage would do for Ryan Sproul's development.

He's not ripe!

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He's not ripe!

Neither was Jurco...or Sheahan. Yet they both made us more difficult to play against than all the mediocre old hacks in the world.

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Neither was Jurco...or Sheahan. Yet they both made us more difficult to play against than all the mediocre old hacks in the world.

I eyeball tested Sproul, and he's not ready, trust me

e_prime, Jedi and kipwinger like this

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Agreed. So rather that do something just to do it, why not give the spot to the most deserving kids and let them gain valuable experience which WILL help us in the future. Lord knows what 82 games under Babcock's tutelage would do for Ryan Sproul's development.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this one, but signing Boyle (in my eyes) run against two of your arguments.

#1: I don't think signing Boyle would be "doing something just to do it". I think his experience would help Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, etc. Whichever one of the kids makes the team this coming season, especially with their work on the PP. Which brings me to...

#2: One of those kids is going to make the team this year, in my opinion. They've (Holland and Babcock) discussed it several times - they like the kids. My best guess is that one of Kindl and/or Lashoff is out with the Wings. I would love for Detroit to be able to move Kindl to a team fighting to hit the cap floor. I think Kindl has certainly played himself off this team, and someone will be willing to ship over a 4th or 5th for him.

Having a defensive core of Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Boyle, Smith, Sproul and Lashoff looks good to me - at the very least, it's an improvement over last season's.

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