Dan Cleary may return...sigh

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Why would the Wings management feel obligated to commit multiple years to him if there weren't something more substantial from Philly? If there wasn't the structure of a deal present they'd have no reason to commit to him for longer. There must have been some reason to believe that he was leaving something on the table to become a Red Wing or else there would have been no need to make any commitments.

I honestly don't know. It could be because Holland had already offered Cleary a multi year deal earlier and then offered a lot less money when Cleary asked to meet with him and Babs. It could be that Holmgrem floated some numbers to Cleary and Dan is trying to keep him from getting in trouble with the NHL. The point is, we don't know. It's all conjecture. There's no solid evidence. And there's absolutely nothing that shows that Babcock was the reason for the multi year commitment, which is what you stated as fact.

Secondly, when reporters use words like "Babcock pushed" and "Babcock urged", it implies some reluctance on the part of Holland. Why would Babcock need to urge Holland, or push Holland to do something that he was already trying to do? Especially when you add in that it was done "at the 11th hour", which suggests that Babs was pushing and urging Holland to do something he wasn't already doing at the last possible second.

Surely you don't need me, or these reporters to go to huge lengths to explain the use of context clues in their articles. Again, you're welcome to disagree. But to say my position is "baseless" is false. I've given you links, and now I've explained the logic.

It was done at the 11th hour because Cleary had a change of heart. He's the one who requested the meeting. You keep ignoring that Holland offered Cleary a multi year deal earlier in the summer.

Your statements about Babcock's role are still baseless and aren't founded on logic. They're inferences you've drawn from reporters using words like "urged" and "pushed." That's a huge difference between logic drawn from facts.

I'm also not sure why I have to go to such lengths to make this point to you. I definitely didn't see you requiring equal amounts of proof when people were blaming the Clearly signing on Holland. If nothing else, I think you'd agree that the blame is 50/50. So why not jump to Holland's aid while he's getting blamed for the Cleary debacle? It's almost like you're relentlessly combative when you disagree with someone and kinda ok with unsubstantiated comments when you feel the same way.

Why would I need proof that the person who's job it is to sign players to contracts had a significant role in signing a player to a contract?

I've already repeated your claims multiple times. You didn't just state that Babcock had a role in signing Cleary. You made very specific statements about Babcock being the reason for a multi year promise from the Wings and from Cleary leaving millions in Philly. You refuted someone's statements about Holland by assigning sole responsibility to Babcock.

It's been repeated multiple times in this forum over the last year that it was because of Babcock, and over time people keep increasing the scope and depth of his responsibility, yet no one has provided any evidence other than Babcock lobbied for Cleary. Which he does all the time for players. And we know he has a man crush on Cleary, but Babcock and Holland disagree about roster decisions all the time. Part of that disagreement is Babcock arguing his position. It's a normal part of their working relationship. It's not like this is the one time Babcock argued with Holland and so Holland went out and did what Babs wanted.

[hooon 1,089]

It's already been stated by management that jobs have been taken. Kids are in, vets are out. The contract being discussed is 2-way for a reason. If he earns a spot in the lineup which I, and I think we all doubt, then more power to him.

I hear ya, and I want to believe it. But I still have that shred of worry that he will find himself on the team.

Even if he is on GR, he could be up as soon as the first injury, potentially over one of our prospects like Mantha or Pulk. I'm not saying it is the worst move ever, but still... I don't like it.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Its time to take out the trash. Ima go get my pitchfork and torch.

[kipwinger 8,756]

I honestly don't know. It could be because Holland had already offered Cleary a multi year deal earlier and then offered a lot less money when Cleary asked to meet with him and Babs. It could be that Holmgrem floated some numbers to Cleary and Dan is trying to keep him from getting in trouble with the NHL. The point is, we don't know. It's all conjecture. There's no solid evidence. And there's absolutely nothing that shows that Babcock was the reason for the multi year commitment, which is what you stated as fact.

It was done at the 11th hour because Cleary had a change of heart. He's the one who requested the meeting. You keep ignoring that Holland offered Cleary a multi year deal earlier in the summer.

Your statements about Babcock's role are still baseless and aren't founded on logic. They're inferences you've drawn from reporters using words like "urged" and "pushed." That's a huge difference between logic drawn from facts.

Why would I need proof that the person who's job it is to sign players to contracts had a significant role in signing a player to a contract?

I've already repeated your claims multiple times. You didn't just state that Babcock had a role in signing Cleary. You made very specific statements about Babcock being the reason for a multi year promise from the Wings and from Cleary leaving millions in Philly. You refuted someone's statements about Holland by assigning sole responsibility to Babcock.

It's been repeated multiple times in this forum over the last year that it was because of Babcock, and over time people keep increasing the scope and depth of his responsibility, yet no one has provided any evidence other than Babcock lobbied for Cleary. Which he does all the time for players. And we know he has a man crush on Cleary, but Babcock and Holland disagree about roster decisions all the time. Part of that disagreement is Babcock arguing his position. It's a normal part of their working relationship. It's not like this is the one time Babcock argued with Holland and so Holland went out and did what Babs wanted.

Good points, I should have just said this and you'd have totally been cool with it (or at least been mum on the issue).

Holland needs a mental health evaluation...the absurb justifications they come up with for even TALKING to Cleary are ridiculous.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Good points, I should have just said this and you'd have totally been cool with it (or at least been mum on the issue).

What? Wait! I'm not done arguing with you!

All in all I've been a fan of Cleary over the years but it's obvious he's not the player he once was. The heart is willing but the body isn't able. Hopefully all parties involve find a graceful exit for his time here on the Wings roster.

EDIT: And I didn't make it that clear in my last post, but over the last year people have made many statements of Babcock's role as if they were fact. And the size of that role has been increasing with each mention. So my (over)reaction to your post was about more than just your few statements.

I guess I get my knickers in a twist when keep repeating things enough here that they're taken as fact.

[number9 3,297]

I hear ya, and I want to believe it. But I still have that shred of worry that he will find himself on the team.

Even if he is on GR, he could be up as soon as the first injury, potentially over one of our prospects like Mantha or Pulk. I'm not saying it is the worst move ever, but still... I don't like it.

I'd prefer if he wasn't on the team at all either, but he did sign cheap last season with an agreement that his contract would be renewed. Though he underperformed, I like and respect the fact that Wings are keeping their word. If it's his leadership the wings love then I have no problem with him GR mentoring future Wings.

[AtomicPunk 296]

This madness needs to end. Seriously. Realize you made a mistake and walk away.

To bring back players that are obviously not what this team needs makes me want to scream!

At Holland.

In his face.

[wings4thecup06 504]

I'd prefer if he wasn't on the team at all either, but he did sign cheap last season with an agreement that his contract would be renewed. Though he underperformed, I like and respect the fact that Wings are keeping their word. If it's his leadership the wings love then I have no problem with him GR mentoring future Wings.

Exactly. And this is the reason why I'm not sitting here s****ing my pants over this just yet because it makes sense to have a veteran guy like Cleary go to GR and show the kids what great work ethic is. Like someone else said, if he makes the team it'll be because he's played well, not because he's entitled.

[martinezsvsu 240]

cleary and mantha will form the greatest line the ahl has ever seen. so good that holland will send dano to the wings and leave mantha in gr.

[FlashyG 1,799]

As long as he never see's the ice in a Wings jersey again I'm all for keeping him in Grand Rapids.

Having gone through the amount of struggles he did as a kid entering the league I think he would be an excellent mentor for the prospects teaching them what it takes to be a pro hockey player.

As much as I hated seeing him on the ice the last couple years the one thing I can't take away from him is his effort, the guy works as hard as anyone on the ice and if he can instill that in a kid like Mantha he'll be damn near unstoppable at the NHL level.

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Honestly, I don't even want him taking a spot away from any of our young Griffins. But as long as he isn't wearing the Winged Wheel I can deal with it.

[FlashyG 1,799]

Honestly, I don't even want him taking a spot away from any of our young Griffins. But as long as he isn't wearing the Winged Wheel I can deal with it.

He won't be taking a spot away from a kid, he'll be playing in Tootoo's spot.

[VM1138 1,921]

He's going to GR to be a mentor, only way he returns to the wings is if he beats out a kid for a spot. Don't see how that's so hard to grasp.

GR doesn't really need a mentor who can't play hockey anymore. There is no defense of this. If they wanted him to have an influence on kids, make him a player development coach. If they only want him in GR, let GR sign him.

This doesn't work as insurance, either, because we have so many kids. And Cleary isn't better than a single one of them. He can't even skate without falling down.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

[wings4thecup06 504]

GR doesn't really need a mentor who can't play hockey anymore. There is no defense of this. If they wanted him to have an influence on kids, make him a player development coach. If they only want him in GR, let GR sign him. This doesn't work as insurance, either, because we have so many kids. And Cleary isn't better than a single one of them. He can't even skate without falling down. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Maybe, but a player development coach isn't playing the games with you, showing you how its done when it counts. Taking those hits just to make plays, not giving up on icing calls etc etc.

[WingsallTheway 383]

WHAT

WHHHHHAT

NO GOD

[canadian wings fan 305]

lol lets not kids ourselves here. If Cleary gets resigned to any type of deal, he's going to play some games on the Red Wings

[martinezsvsu 240]

Maybe, but a player development coach isn't playing the games with you, showing you how its done when it counts. Taking those hits just to make plays, not giving up on icing calls etc etc.

he sucks to much for these things.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Oh for Pete's sake, go away Cleary.

[martinezsvsu 240]

he should be working alongside with chelios and fischer not playing with pulks and mantha.

he could teach the kids in practice as a coach or he could teach them in games by falling down, turning the puck over, and saying ok kids dont do what i do out here.

[uk_redwing 495]

For the last time for all the people who keep saying it, GRAND RAPIDS DOES NOT NEED MORE VETERAN PLAYERS. DAN CLEARY HAS NO PLACE IN GRAND RAPIDS.

GR was already two players over the maximum veterans rule as of the end of last season, and they were players who could actually skate and score. The Griffins, in case anyone hasn't noticed, are actually a great team as it is and were only knocked out of the AHL playoffs by the Texas Stars who are one game away from winning the Calder Cup.

One more time; Grand Rapids already has effective veterans and plenty of leadership. It does not need a broken down immobile Cleary halting the development of our younger guys. We happen to be very stacked at forward in GR as it is. Please God no.

Retire already.

[martinezsvsu 240]

who would we rather have minutes going towards, martin frk or dano?

[luvmnger 125]

For the last time for all the people who keep saying it, GRAND RAPIDS DOES NOT NEED MORE VETERAN PLAYERS. DAN CLEARY HAS NO PLACE IN GRAND RAPIDS.

GR was already two players over the maximum veterans rule as of the end of last season, and they were players who could actually skate and score. The Griffins, in case anyone hasn't noticed, are actually a great team as it is and were only knocked out of the AHL playoffs by the Texas Stars who are one game away from winning the Calder Cup.

One more time; Grand Rapids already has effective veterans and plenty of leadership. It does not need a broken down immobile Cleary halting the development of our younger guys. We happen to be very stacked at forward in GR as it is. Please God no.

Retire already.

here here. ok...someone get a stamp and mail this info out to kenny & co.

done?

next topic.

on to niskanen/stralman/boyle ...vs... trade for bogosian/erhoff/meyers dilemma.

[kipwinger 8,756]

If we burn Dan Cleary in effigy outside Joe Louis Arena do you think everyone involved will get the point?

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

This is it guys! I knew it was coming soon but it's finally here! This is the sign for the Apocalypse the Bible was referring too! Why else would God let this happen unless this is it! Dan Clearly is the sign guys!

[Motown4013 350]

Really . I mean really Holland? For F sakes buddy.....what has happened to you? Cleary was an awesome wing. Heart of a lion and blah, blah, blah but come ON man. It's not 2003 anymore. He should not have been signed last year and to even think you may be taking a spot away from Jurco or another potential young guy , to see what the they can do is beyond ridiculous.

Who made allowed this team to make the playoffs this year? It wasn't the vets- Cleary, Alfie, Bert or. Sammy.....it was youth.

We need speed, we need goals and we need a power forward. What of those three does Dan Cleary possess? Right....none.

Phew...end rant.