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Wings3:16

Dan Cleary may return...sigh

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Verbal agreement? Clearly did not/cannot hold up his end of the deal. Agreement has been broken, so no dishonor done in not signing him.

13dangledangle likes this

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Hahahaha. And people called me crazy when I said 100% he would be brought back, probably to a multi year deal.

I also very much expect a multi year offer to be made to Bertuzzi, Legwand, maybe even Sammy.

This is Holland.

GMRwings1983 likes this

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Verbal agreement? Clearly did not/cannot hold up his end of the deal. Agreement has been broken, so no dishonor done in not signing him.

I'm guessing Cleary's end of the deal was signing for less money than Holland offered him earlier, so he did hold up his end of the deal.

Like I said, I don't want Cleary back on the Wings. The guy is all heart but it would take a miraculous recovery for him to hold a spot on the team.

krsmith17 likes this

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Hahahaha. And people called me crazy when I said 100% he would be brought back, probably to a multi year deal.

I also very much expect a multi year offer to be made to Bertuzzi, Legwand, maybe even Sammy.

This is Holland.

Multi year? No. Legwand maybe. And going to GR isn't going to the Wings.

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Do you have any source to back up any of these elaborate claims?

Do you really think Babcock could make Holland do something he absolutely didn't want to do, especially when it involves putting his team against the roster and cap limit?

I know you don't like Babcock and are eager to blame him for anything possible, but my memory from that time and the multiple sources I've found state that Babcock, the players, and yes Holland all wanted Cleary back.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/wings/2013/09/12/daniel-cleary-detroit-red-wings-return/2804183/

All parties being Holland, Cleary and Babcock.
You can pretend this is all Babcock's fault but it ignores the fact that Holland offered Cleary a contract before he ever talked to Philly. Not to mention there was a lot of speculation the Philly deal fell through due to the handshake deal Philly made because they didn't have cap room at the time, not because that dastardly Babcock convinced Cleary to walk away from millions of dollars and Holland to go against his own wishes and sign Cleary.
As for this latest news, I don't want Cleary back on the team, but it's stated pretty clearly why the Red Wings are doing this. They're keeping their word.

I'm as eager to pretend things are "all Babs' fault" as you are to absolve him of any possible culpability. Which is to say that both are gross over generalizations. I don't hate Babcock, I just don't think he's beyond his share of the culpability when things go awry.

Now, on to the way you addressed me. You don't have to agree with anything I say. I'm sure you're aware of that. But in the future I'd appreciate you not insinuating I've made things up, or make condescending references to my "elaborate claims". I'm not stupid, or a liar, and I resent being represented as such.

As far as evidence for my "elaborate claims", I guess I'd start with all these...

"In Daniel Cleary's case, when he was brought back at the 11th hour last fall, at the urging of coach Mike Babcock, it was with the understanding the Wings would ameliorate Cleary having left a three-year deal on the table in Philadelphia."

http://www.freep.com/article/20140605/SPORTS05/306050048/detroit-red-wings-ken-holland

"Cleary was a surprise, because he had bad knees and better offers elsewhere. But coach Mike Babcock wanted him back. The team leaders wanted him back – from Howard to Zetterberg to Datsyuk. And he came back on a one-year deal worth $1.75 million"

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-s-hottest-scorer-gustav-nyquist-shooting-for-goals--glory---playoffs-after-starting-the-season-in-ahl-161232581.html

"At the 11th hour, coach Mike Babcock pushed for Cleary to return, resulting in a one-year contract with promise of future employment."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2014/04/27/red-wings-free-agent-list/8294157/

"Babcock had been pushing hard for Holland to re-sign Cleary, a versatile, hard-working heart-and-soul type of player who can play on any line and in any situation."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/daniel_cleary_followed_his_hea.html

"Detroit Red Wings coach Mike Babcock has been a big supporter of Daniel Cleary since the forward earned a contract with the club following a training camp tryout in 2005. Babcock pushed hard for the team to re-sign Cleary in the off-season."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/11/red_wings_mike_babcock_hopes_s_1.html

It's not too hard to see why I'd think Babcock was the primary motivator in bringing back Cleary when two of the Wings most prominent beat writers, as well as two reasonably well respected national outlets reported as much.

Edited by kipwinger

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Ultimately, I think this is going to be like a Draper/Maltby situation, an insurance policy in case one of the kids they're relying on blows it in camp. There's barely room for Jurco on the team, especially if Alfie comes back, let alone a broken down Cleary plus you got Ferarro & Callahan out of options. He either winds up in GR as a player/mentor or he'll take a job with the organization somewhere else.

krsmith17 likes this

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I'm as eager to pretend things are "all Babs' fault" as you are to absolve him of any possible culpability. Which is to say that both are gross over generalizations. I don't hate Babcock, I just don't think he's beyond his share of the culpability when things go awry.

Now, on to the way you addressed me. You don't have to agree with anything I say. I'm sure you're aware of that. But in the future I'd appreciate you not insinuating I've made things up, or make condescending references to my "elaborate claims". I'm not stupid, or a liar, and I resent being represented as such.

As far as evidence for my "elaborate claims", I guess I'd start with all these...

http://www.freep.com/article/20140605/SPORTS05/306050048/detroit-red-wings-ken-holland

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-s-hottest-scorer-gustav-nyquist-shooting-for-goals--glory---playoffs-after-starting-the-season-in-ahl-161232581.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2014/04/27/red-wings-free-agent-list/8294157/

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/daniel_cleary_followed_his_hea.html

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/11/red_wings_mike_babcock_hopes_s_1.html

It's not too hard to see why I'd think Babcock was the primary motivator in bringing back Cleary when two of the Wings most prominent beat writers, as well as two reasonably well respected national outlets reported as much.

Yeah, I'm not going to sift through those links and try to divine which portion you think proves that "Babs was the reason he left money on the table in Philly" that "Babs was the reason he got a commitment beyond last year from the Wings" or "Without the coach's intervention, Cleary is a Flyer right now."

If you want to post the relevant excerpts, go for it.

I'm in no way trying to absolve Babcock of any responsibility. Even in links I posted, it's clear that Babcock wanted him here. As did the players. But between the players, coach, and GM, whose job is it to make the final decision on contracts?

Holland's job is to make personnel decisions. Especially ones where players and even a coach may have an attachment to a player that isn't in line with his market value or the longer term goals of the team. That's a HUGE part of Holland's job, so it's not unreasonable to put a big helping of the blame for Cleary on him. It's well established he and Babcock don't see eye to eye on a lot of personnel decisions. If Babcock could convince Holland to sign anyone he wanted, I'm guessing the team would look significantly different. Maybe not better, but different for sure.

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I read the thread title AND OVERREACTED GOD DAMMIT WHEN WILL THIS FARCE END FFS

But honestly I can live with a cheap two way contract. He could be great for the kids in GR and then ride off into the sunset to his front office job.

That being said, so help me god if he starts the season in the top six I will light a fricking turd on fire and throw it on the ice.

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Three major problems I have with this:

1. Kenny should have never made any commitment (verbal or otherwise) to Cleary beyond a one year deal after we had essentially let him go by not opting to match Philly on their offer.

2. Cleary accepting a verbal offer is just foolish. Serves him right IF the Wings don't honor this. His agent must have been livid....ohh wait...this is the Wings....they're loyal to a fault!!

3. It's almost certain that IF Kenny did commit to him verbally on this, that we will honor this. It's just the way the Wings/Mr. I/Kenny are. It's what has made us a desirable franchise/owner to play for in the past, so in this one instance, it's coming back to bite us. "Live by the sword, die by the sword".

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Holland needs a mental health evaluation...the absurb justifications they come up with for even TALKING to Cleary are ridiculous. There's no room for Legwand or Tootoo, but god forbid we lose those eight points that Cleary contributed.

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There's not one forward in Grand Rapids I would scratch for Dan Cleary. Why dump him on those of us who like to watch the youngsters play? :scared:

I was done with Ken Holland a long time ago, and have been saying his scouts have over inflated his reputation for YEARS now. The guy does nothing but play safe with the talent his SCOUTS acquired for him. Waste of space.

Babcock is keeping the playoff streak alive at the moment.

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We need to somehow find out who is poisoning Hollands food with hallucinogens. This is absolutely ridiculous. What are they trying to do with this team.

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He can come back to the organization but how about as a scout? or some guy in a cozy office working for Kenny? or some sort of coach? I'm ok with that....

krsmith17 likes this

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I'm as eager to pretend things are "all Babs' fault" as you are to absolve him of any possible culpability. Which is to say that both are gross over generalizations. I don't hate Babcock, I just don't think he's beyond his share of the culpability when things go awry.

Now, on to the way you addressed me. You don't have to agree with anything I say. I'm sure you're aware of that. But in the future I'd appreciate you not insinuating I've made things up, or make condescending references to my "elaborate claims". I'm not stupid, or a liar, and I resent being represented as such.

As far as evidence for my "elaborate claims", I guess I'd start with all these...

"In Daniel Cleary's case, when he was brought back at the 11th hour last fall, at the urging of coach Mike Babcock, it was with the understanding the Wings would ameliorate Cleary having left a three-year deal on the table in Philadelphia."

http://www.freep.com/article/20140605/SPORTS05/306050048/detroit-red-wings-ken-holland

"Cleary was a surprise, because he had bad knees and better offers elsewhere. But coach Mike Babcock wanted him back. The team leaders wanted him back – from Howard to Zetterberg to Datsyuk. And he came back on a one-year deal worth $1.75 million"

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-s-hottest-scorer-gustav-nyquist-shooting-for-goals--glory---playoffs-after-starting-the-season-in-ahl-161232581.html

"At the 11th hour, coach Mike Babcock pushed for Cleary to return, resulting in a one-year contract with promise of future employment."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2014/04/27/red-wings-free-agent-list/8294157/

"Babcock had been pushing hard for Holland to re-sign Cleary, a versatile, hard-working heart-and-soul type of player who can play on any line and in any situation."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/daniel_cleary_followed_his_hea.html

"Detroit Red Wings coach Mike Babcock has been a big supporter of Daniel Cleary since the forward earned a contract with the club following a training camp tryout in 2005. Babcock pushed hard for the team to re-sign Cleary in the off-season."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/11/red_wings_mike_babcock_hopes_s_1.html

It's not too hard to see why I'd think Babcock was the primary motivator in bringing back Cleary when two of the Wings most prominent beat writers, as well as two reasonably well respected national outlets reported as much.

You didn't say that you thought Babcock was the primary motivator in bringing back Cleary.

You stated that "Babs was the reason he left money on the table in Philly."

Nevermind that it ignores Cleary's role in the whole thing, there's nothing in your sources to support that statement. Furthermore, from one of your own links (emphasis mine):

Cleary said he had no guaranteed deal in Philadelphia, despite a report of a three-year agreement worth $8.2 million.

“Paul (Flyers GM Holmgren) gave me an opportunity to come to Philly and I had a chance to be a Flyer and we never discussed numbers with Paul,'' Cleary said. “It was a tryout in Philly.

“Paul Holmgren was a real gentleman and a class act through the whole situation. I think he understood how tough the situation was for me. I pretty much told him that I was having a hard time, I needed an extra day or two, and he was in complete support.''

It was difficult for Cleary to join the Flyers when his heart wasn't in it.

“If I was going to go there, I needed to go there 100 percent,'' he said. “I didn’t think it was fair to (Holmgren) or to Mr. Snider (owner Ed) and the organization, or the players, or the Philly fans. My heart was here and I had a change of heart.

You stated that "Babs was the reason he got a commitment beyond last year from the Wings."

There's nothing in your links to support that statement.

The only thing you established, which was included in my links as well (I think we actually linked to a couple of the same articles) was that Babcock was pushing for Cleary. Everyone knew that. His man love for Cleary has been beat to death here. I also linked to articles stating Holland wanted Cleary back.

But you went beyond saying he pushed for Cleary. You singled out Babcock as the reason why Cleary walked away from millions in Philly. Millions it turns out, that may not have even been there. Then you flatly stated that Babcock is the reason the Wings made a multi-year promise to Cleary. I haven't seen any evidence that in any way supports that claim. There's a massive gap between a coach saying he wants a player on a team and claiming the coach is the sole reason the Wings made a handshake deal to sign a player after this one year contract.

So if you didn't like my word choice of "elaborate," how about "baseless."

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You didn't say that you thought Babcock was the primary motivator in bringing back Cleary.

You stated that "Babs was the reason he left money on the table in Philly."

Nevermind that it ignores Cleary's role in the whole thing, there's nothing in your sources to support that statement. Furthermore, from one of your own links (emphasis mine):

You stated that "Babs was the reason he got a commitment beyond last year from the Wings."

There's nothing in your links to support that statement.

The only thing you established, which was included in my links as well (I think we actually linked to a couple of the same articles) was that Babcock was pushing for Cleary. Everyone knew that. His man love for Cleary has been beat to death here. I also linked to articles stating Holland wanted Cleary back.

But you went beyond saying he pushed for Cleary. You singled out Babcock as the reason why Cleary walked away from millions in Philly. Millions it turns out, that may not have even been there. Then you flatly stated that Babcock is the reason the Wings made a multi-year promise to Cleary. I haven't seen any evidence that in any way supports that claim. There's a massive gap between a coach saying he wants a player on a team and claiming the coach is the sole reason the Wings made a handshake deal to sign a player after this one year contract.

So if you didn't like my word choice of "elaborate," how about "baseless."

Why would the Wings management feel obligated to commit multiple years to him if there weren't something more substantial from Philly? If there wasn't the structure of a deal present they'd have no reason to commit to him for longer. There must have been some reason to believe that he was leaving something on the table to become a Red Wing or else there would have been no need to make any commitments.

Secondly, when reporters use words like "Babcock pushed" and "Babcock urged", it implies some reluctance on the part of Holland. Why would Babcock need to urge Holland, or push Holland to do something that he was already trying to do? Especially when you add in that it was done "at the 11th hour", which suggests that Babs was pushing and urging Holland to do something he wasn't already doing at the last possible second.

Surely you don't need me, or these reporters to go to huge lengths to explain the use of context clues in their articles. Again, you're welcome to disagree. But to say my position is "baseless" is false. I've given you links, and now I've explained the logic.

I'm also not sure why I have to go to such lengths to make this point to you. I definitely didn't see you requiring equal amounts of proof when people were blaming the Clearly signing on Holland. If nothing else, I think you'd agree that the blame is 50/50. So why not jump to Holland's aid while he's getting blamed for the Cleary debacle? It's almost like you're relentlessly combative when you disagree with someone and kinda ok with unsubstantiated comments when you feel the same way.

Edit: You'll have a much easier time downplaying Babs' role in this the second you can show me an article saying "Holland pushed..." or "Holland urged..." Babcock to let Cleary back on the team.

Edited by kipwinger

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He's going to GR to be a mentor, only way he returns to the wings is if he beats out a kid for a spot. Don't see how that's so hard to grasp.

It isn't hard to grasp, it is just hard to 100% believe - considering he beat out Nyquist last season when he had absolutely no business being on the team in the first place, it is not out of the realm of possibility to believe they might inexplicably give him a spot over some other youngster to start this season as well (Jurco, Mantha maybe). I think that's what is worrying most folks.

My other issue is, I don't even particularly want him taking up a spot on GR either.

13dangledangle likes this

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It isn't hard to grasp, it is just hard to 100% believe - considering he beat out Nyquist last season when he had absolutely no business being on the team in the first place, it is not out of the realm of possibility to believe they might inexplicably give him a spot over some other youngster to start this season as well (Jurco, Mantha maybe). I think that's what is worrying most folks.

My other issue is, I don't even particularly want him taking up a spot on GR either.

It's already been stated by management that jobs have been taken. Kids are in, vets are out. The contract being discussed is 2-way for a reason. If he earns a spot in the lineup which I, and I think we all doubt, then more power to him.

krsmith17 likes this

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