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HockeytownRules19

Babcock granted permission to talk to other teams

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Earned Holland a 5-year contract extension by getting Kenny's mediocre rosters into the playoffs year after year? :P

That's true, but for the first time in maybe ever, if I had to choose between Holland and Babcock, I'd choose Holland. Babcock's line combos with those "mediocre" players have gotten on my nerves. At least Kenny tried to improve the team this season by making moves before the deadline. Babcock just kept doing the same stubborn s***.

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I thought they were supposed to talk today?

I think Babcock is a great coach, but after all this drama it's gonna be a little annoying if he ends up staying.

Though I guess it gives all of us and definitely the media something to blather on about in between playoff games.

If he returns, the whole circus wouldn't bother me at all. He's earned the right to see what's out there. I'd like him to resign, if not, so be it.

Edited by wings87

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That's true, but for the first time in maybe ever, if I had to choose between Holland and Babcock, I'd choose Holland. Babcock's line combos with those "mediocre" players have gotten on my nerves. At least Kenny tried to improve the team this season by making moves before the deadline. Babcock just kept doing the same stubborn s***.

Holland made two moves, 1 got hurt the other turned to s***.

I get people's frustrations, but what does it matter which lines Babcock went with if the entire team is mediocre?

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If he returns, the whole circus wouldn't bother me at all. He's earned the right to see what's out there. I'd like him to resign, if not, so be it.

Agreed. Plus, you cant blame him for the media. All he did was grant one interview which is IMO is no big deal.

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I'm actually kind of torn at this point. I'm also tired of seeing some of the line combinations and the way some players are being used under Babcock. At the same time, it's hard to deny that he's got a way to get more out of his players than you'd expect.

I'm leaning toward a fresh approach with this team, but I'm not going to be ticked if Babcock re-signs.

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That's true, but for the first time in maybe ever, if I had to choose between Holland and Babcock, I'd choose Holland. Babcock's line combos with those "mediocre" players have gotten on my nerves. At least Kenny tried to improve the team this season by making moves before the deadline. Babcock just kept doing the same stubborn s***.

For me I think my tolerance for Babcock's headscratching moves is I see other coaches doing very similar things, like it's a part of some trending coaching philosophy or something. Watching the Kings, Sutter has similar tendencies. Quenneville too. Blackhawks fans (and yesterday even the announcers) were questioning Quenneville's insistence on going with Runblad in spite of his poor play while Timonen stayed glued to the bench for most of the game.

I can't pretend to understand it, but watching the Kings have seen he's not the only one who seems oddly stubborn about certain things.

As for Holland, my view is about the same as it has been. Great development of talent, but some uncharacteristically bad signings over the last few seasons and repeated failure to bolster the defense in the post-Lidstrom era.

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Holland made two moves, 1 got hurt the other turned to s***.

I get people's frustrations, but what does it matter which lines Babcock went with if the entire team is mediocre?

So Babcock didn't have any say in Samuelsson and Bertuzzi taking icetime away from Nyquist and Tatar for several years? How about Cleary's return? All Holland's fault? Babcock is partly responsible for this "overripe" crap.

Playing your 4th line 15+ minutes in big games is also Babcock's fault. He gives the wrong people more icetime and has the worst line combos of any coach I've ever seen.

Defense wise, I agree he doesn't have much to choose from. There's no way to mix and match our defense pairings and not get an underwhelming lineup together there.

For me I think my tolerance for Babcock's headscratching moves is I see other coaches doing very similar things, like it's a part of some trending coaching philosophy or something. Watching the Kings, Sutter has similar tendencies. Quenneville too. Blackhawks fans (and yesterday even the announcers) were questioning Quenneville's insistence on going with Runblad in spite of his poor play while Timonen stayed glued to the bench for most of the game.

I can't pretend to understand it, but watching the Kings have seen he's not the only one who seems oddly stubborn about certain things.

As for Holland, my view is about the same as it has been. Great development of talent, but some uncharacteristically bad signings over the last few seasons and repeated failure to bolster the defense in the post-Lidstrom era.

We've discussed this before. I feel Babcock is equally responsible for those decisions. I have a hard time believing that Holland made unilateral decisions on signings and trades without consulting Babcock at all. If so, then by all means, let's fire Kenny only. But I don't think so.

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So Babcock didn't have any say in Samuelsson and Bertuzzi taking icetime away from Nyquist and Tatar for several years? How about Cleary's return? All Holland's fault? Babcock is partly responsible for this "overripe" crap.

Playing your 4th line 15+ minutes in big games is also Babcock's fault. He gives the wrong people more icetime and has the worst line combos of any coach I've ever seen.

Defense wise, I agree he doesn't have much to choose from. There's no way to mix and match our defense pairings and not get an underwhelming lineup together there.

We've discussed this before. I feel Babcock is equally responsible for those decisions. I have a hard time believing that Holland made unilateral decisions on signings and trades without consulting Babcock at all. If so, then by all means, let's fire Kenny only. But I don't think so.

Right. Which makes little sense to me. You're blaming Babcock equally for what is 100% Holland's responsibility.

Of course the decisions aren't without input from others. Just like Babcock consults people in his decisions. But their disagreeing on rosters has been well documented over the years. And even if Babcock has Holland's ear and is lobbying for these things, it's still ultimately Holland's job to decide what's best for the team in those situations. If giving too much weight to his coach's opinions is causing him to make bad decisions, it's still absolutely Holland's fault.

And frankly if that's the case, that's even worse and Holland should probably go. He's there to run the team, not be a patsy for his coach.

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Does anyone have Mike's email before he makes a decision, I want to send him this article and findings:

Here Is The Income Level At Which Money Won't Make You Any Happier In Each State

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/map-happiness-benchmark_n_5592194.html

This article is complete bulls*** at so many levels...

Who says money is to buy happiness in the first place?!!...

Edited by ami

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So Babcock didn't have any say in Samuelsson and Bertuzzi taking icetime away from Nyquist and Tatar for several years? How about Cleary's return? All Holland's fault? Babcock is partly responsible for this "overripe" crap.

Playing your 4th line 15+ minutes in big games is also Babcock's fault. He gives the wrong people more icetime and has the worst line combos of any coach I've ever seen.

Defense wise, I agree he doesn't have much to choose from. There's no way to mix and match our defense pairings and not get an underwhelming lineup together there.

I agree on Nyquist and Tatar, but that's the only impact players the Wings have brought up. The rest have been role players thrown into roles they have no business being in. So other then 4 maybe 5 players the rest of the team is made up of 4th line guys. Not sure it would have mattered much on which line they played. Since they are basically the same player.

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No ill will toward Babcock if he goes. 10 yrs is an eternity in the same position in pro sports. He is a smart guy with a psychological bent. I have a feeling that he wants a different challenge. Taking on a new gig elsewhere would invigorate him, as well as give a fresh voice and ideas to the Wings. If someone is willing to pay him ~$5 million a year in the process, more power to him. Wings don't need to pay him anywhere near that much though IMO.

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I think Babcock is a great coach, but after all this drama it's gonna be a little annoying if he ends up staying.

I don't think he's really made a big hoopla out of any of it. It's the media more than anything. He didn't want to talk about it all season and I think he's really only done the one interview with TSN, where he basically said "lets hurry up and make a decision now, no reason to drag this on". We should know in two days time.

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I don't think he's really made a big hoopla out of any of it. It's the media more than anything. He didn't want to talk about it all season and I think he's really only done the one interview with TSN, where he basically said "lets hurry up and make a decision now, no reason to drag this on". We should know in two days time.

As the hysteria in this thread has risen to unbearably higher levels, I'd like to point out:

In what other profession would it NOT be acceptable for someone with 10+ years in one location to take a few weeks to explore his options? He's gotten us one Cup (and damn close to two), ten years in the playoffs, and in the last few years he has kept the team in the mix of Cup contenders despite barely having a playoff-caliber roster.

Are we really not okay with giving him (AND HIS FAMILY) a few weeks to make a major life decision? And are we really going to shovel all the blame onto him for the hoopla the media makes about his decision? He didn't ask to be the biggest FA name on the market this off-season. He didn't ask for major markets like Toronto to have an opening that inspire a media feeding frenzy. Do we expect him to believe so strongly that Detroit is the best hockey place in the history of forever that he wouldn't so much as glance elsewhere? Is that disloyal - or to put it another way, are we that insecure? He's been here for ten years. Come on.

The only thing I see here is a guy who has served the Detroit organization well and faithfully for over a decade spending a few weeks to decide what is best for the future of his family. And we're really shallow enough not to grant him that without ill will? I'm disappointed.

Blashill has done a great job in Grand Rapids. I hope he continues to do so. And I hope we have another 10 years of Babcock.

Edited by Aethernum

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Holland made two moves, 1 got hurt the other turned to s***.

I get people's frustrations, but what does it matter which lines Babcock went with if the entire team is mediocre?

Really......Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tatar, and Nyquist are mediocre? Saying things like this just kill your credibility.

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As the hysteria in this thread has risen to unbearably higher levels, I'd like to point out:

In what other profession would it NOT be acceptable for someone with 10+ years in one location to take a few weeks to explore his options? He's gotten us one Cup, ten years in the playoffs, and in the last few years he has kept the team in the mix of Cup contenders despite barely having a playoff-caliber roster.

Are we really not okay with giving him (AND HIS FAMILY) a few weeks to make a major life decision? And are we really going to shovel all the blame onto him for the hoopla the media makes about his decision? He didn't ask to be the biggest FA name on the market this off-season. He didn't ask for major markets like Toronto to have an opening.

The only thing I see here is a guy who has served the Detroit organization well and faithfully for over a decade spending a few weeks to decide what is best for the future of his family. And we're really shallow enough not to grant him that without ill will? I'm disappointed.

Blashill has done a great job in Grand Rapids. I hope he continues to do so. And I hope we have another 10 years of Babcock.

Whoa, lots of exaggerations here. He's had all year long to decide whether he wanted to leave or not. The fact that he said he wouldn't negotiate during the season doesn't mean that he didn't think about it, prepare for it, consider other options, and consider his own priorities. People are acting like he didn't know his contract was up until the season concluded, which is crap. He's had every opportunity to talk over this "major life decision" for at least the last year. And the fact that he didn't want to negotiate was his call too. It's not like he was dying to get this figured out and Ken Holland just wouldn't hear him out, he's been offered several contracts that he turned down.

Secondly, I'm not sure where this notion that Babcock didn't have good rosters is coming from. His rosters haven't been as good as Chicago or L.A., sure, but they haven't been bad either. This notion that they were "barely playoff caliber" is overblown. Ottawa and Calgary had a "barely playoff caliber" roster this season. Columbus had a "barely playoff caliber" roster last season. People are acting like he had nothing to work with...which is bull. He didn't have a Cup contender, but he didn't have trash either. The fact that we've barely scraped into the playoffs the last couple of years had more to do with our shootout record (for the last two years), injuries (last season), and a monumental collapse (this season). Some of which, contrary to popular opinion, actually had to do with Babcock's coaching.

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Whoa, lots of exaggerations here. He's had all year long to decide whether he wanted to leave or not. The fact that he said he wouldn't negotiate during the season doesn't mean that he didn't think about it, prepare for it, consider other options, and consider his own priorities. People are acting like he didn't know his contract was up until the season concluded, which is crap. He's had every opportunity to talk over this "major life decision" for at least the last year. And the fact that he didn't want to negotiate was his call too. It's not like he was dying to get this figured out and Ken Holland just wouldn't hear him out, he's been offered several contracts that he turned down.

Secondly, I'm not sure where this notion that Babcock didn't have good rosters is coming from. His rosters haven't been as good as Chicago or L.A., sure, but they haven't been bad either. This notion that they were "barely playoff caliber" is overblown. Ottawa and Calgary had a "barely playoff caliber" roster this season. Columbus had a "barely playoff caliber" roster last season. People are acting like he had nothing to work with...which is bull. He didn't have a Cup contender, but he didn't have trash either. The fact that we've barely scraped into the playoffs the last couple of years had more to do with our shootout record (for the last two years), injuries (last season), and a monumental collapse (this season). Some of which, contrary to popular opinion, actually had to do with Babcock's coaching.

I agree with the entire second part of your post. For whatever reason, people don't want to give our kids any credit and take shots at them any chance they get. Babcock had a very good roster to work with last year. Elite, No......Good, yes.

The only thing I disagree with to a degree is what I put in bold. While he did have a year to decide whether or not he wanted to be in Detroit, he really didn't have an opportunity to see what else is out there. To fairly assess your options, you need to speak with other teams, hear their pitch and see where they want to go moving forward. Personally I feel that is what he is doing right now, and I don't see how people can fault him for it. The media has been ridiculously annoying with it, that I admit, but I don't think Babcock has done anything wrong.

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Whoa, lots of exaggerations here. He's had all year long to decide whether he wanted to leave or not. The fact that he said he wouldn't negotiate during the season doesn't mean that he didn't think about it, prepare for it, consider other options, and consider his own priorities. People are acting like he didn't know his contract was up until the season concluded, which is crap. He's had every opportunity to talk over this "major life decision" for at least the last year. And the fact that he didn't want to negotiate was his call too. It's not like he was dying to get this figured out and Ken Holland just wouldn't hear him out, he's been offered several contracts that he turned down.

Secondly, I'm not sure where this notion that Babcock didn't have good rosters is coming from. His rosters haven't been as good as Chicago or L.A., sure, but they haven't been bad either. This notion that they were "barely playoff caliber" is overblown. Ottawa and Calgary had a "barely playoff caliber" roster this season. Columbus had a "barely playoff caliber" roster last season. People are acting like he had nothing to work with...which is bull. He didn't have a Cup contender, but he didn't have trash either. The fact that we've barely scraped into the playoffs the last couple of years had more to do with our shootout record (for the last two years), injuries (last season), and a monumental collapse (this season). Some of which, contrary to popular opinion, actually had to do with Babcock's coaching.

He's had all year to think about it - but he hasn't had all year to fly around the country and talk with organizations and discuss salaries and prospects and how much input he gets on the roster. Those are important aspects of the decision, believe it or not. Has he had time to think about "Do I want to stay in Detroit or not"? Sure. But if he gave even more than cursory attention to "Hmmm, what do the up and coming St. Louis prospects look like..." that would have been irresponsible given his coaching duties. How does he think he would get along with management in Buffalo? How much control would he get over the roster in San Jose? What would his kids' college situation(s?) look like if he moved to Toronto? Out of country applications for US universities versus in-state? Is there a decent (and affordable) neighborhood for him and his wife in St. Louis? These are all things to think about - and if you really think he had spare time to consider these details during the regular season, you don't have enough respect for the profession of coaching an NHL team.

Which is why - as he keeps repeating to the media - he hasn't thought about it as much as he needs to in order to make a call. There are a LOT of aspects to this decision that he can't/shouldn't have been thinking about until the Wings were eliminated. I don't begrudge him that.

And no, he hasn't had a squad at the level of Chicago or Los Angeles. But in mid-February Detroit was considered a sneaky-good contender for the Cup at the level of any team in the West. That's my point. It collapsed eventually, but we still made it into the postseason. Would that have happened under another coach? Would the Wings have even been in that position (fighting for the top spot in the division over halfway through the season) with the same roster but a different coach? I doubt that. He has made the team better. Period.

I'll grant you it's probably an exaggeration to say the roster wasn't playoff worthy last season, but an average coach doesn't get that roster in last year. Maybe not even this year. He has gotten well above average results with (and I think this IS fair) only a slightly above average team - at least in the last few years. All I'm saying is that we should respect that body of work and give the man some time to sort out his business without berating him for not being undyingly loyal to the place where he's already delivered a Cup and spent over a decade of his life. He's earned that.

Edited by Aethernum

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Really......Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tatar, and Nyquist are mediocre? Saying things like this just kill your credibility.

You named 4 players, they are obviously not mediocre. The reason I didn't specifically name those players is simply because I didn't think anyone was dense enough to think I'd call those players mediocre. Do I really need to spell out who the good players are, and who sucks? I thought it was common sense as well as common knowledge. Would calling most of the players mediocre instead of calling the team mediocre, make you feel any better? Only having 4 or 5 good players is what makes a team inconsistent, and mediocre. Come on dude, no point in being confrontational for the sake of it. Edited by wings87

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Lids as assistant coach....holy sheeot. Huge upgrade.

Our assistant coaches, and their special teams improvements were a primary factor in making the playoffs this year. We were terrible at even strength. Moving them for a guy with no coaching experience is a terrible idea. No matter how beloved Lidstrom may be. Thats the kind of stuff the Oilers do, not teams who care about winning.

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I agree. Just let this idiot go and name Blashill as our new coach with Dan Cleary and Nicklas Lidstrom as assistant coaches. How freaking hard is that?

On a more serious note, I'd actually like to see Cleary get a chance to coach the Griffens if Blashill leaves/moves to the Wings. Edited by wings87

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Our assistant coaches, and their special teams improvements were a primary factor in making the playoffs this year. We were terrible at even strength. Moving them for a guy with no coaching experience is a terrible idea. No matter how beloved Lidstrom may be. Thats the kind of stuff the Oilers do, not teams who care about winning.

It would be weird to have a coach who's better than any defenseman on the team. Kind of like when Mario was Penguins GM.

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