Rumors Thread

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I wish I had a stat for average career point production for a 6OA pick. 

But I don't. 

How many current NHL teams does Zadina crack the top 9 of? All of them? 

I did something like that awhile back. Zadina is well above average in terms of how 6OA picks have turned out. Sam Gagner was also a 6OA and I don't recall anyone referring to him as a "bust" even tho he is a lesser player than Zadina.

10 minutes ago, number10 said:

He's a bust relative to expectations

That's the problem with your word play. If you do a redraft for the last 20 years, you will probably find that more players than not are "busts" by that metric.

[kipwinger 8,524]

4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I wish I had a stat for average career point production for a 6OA pick. 

But I don't. 

How many current NHL teams does Zadina crack the top 9 of? All of them? 

Sure he would, but that's more based on his perceived "upside" than the quality of his play. If his production was EXACTLY the same as it has been but he was a 3rd round pick instead of 6OA he'd have been sent back to the AHL by now (see: Veleno, Joe). He's living on his reputation. You can't deny his on-ice production has been extremely underwhelming to date. Thus far in his career his scoring has been more in line with Tomas Jurco than Tatar, Nyquist, Filppula, or Hudler (all notable complimentary Red Wings scorers).

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

So. I just did 98 draft to 2018 draft looking at 6OA. 

0.45 PPG is your average. 

Zadina is at 0.43 PPG

Tkachuk, Zibanejad, and Monahan are your real winners at 0.8, 0.74, 0.72 PPG respectively. 

Losers like Upshall. Finley and Fata are in the 0.19 to 0.28 PPG range.

Gagner is 0.53 PPG. 

Maybe the Zadina conversation should be more about fan expectations vs the reality of NHL drafting. I dunno....

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by The 91 of Ryans

[kipwinger 8,524]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So. I just did 98 draft to 2018 draft looking at 6OA. 

0.45 PPG is your average. 

Zadina is at 0.43 PPG

Tkachuk, Zibanejad, and Monahan are your real winners at 0.8, 0.74, 0.72 PPG respectively. 

Losers like Upshall. Finley and Fata are in the 0.19 to 0.28 PPG range.

Gagner is 0.53 PPG. 

Maybe the Zadina conversation should be more about fan expectations vs the reality of NHL drafting. I dunno....

 

I think fan expectations were appropriate considering Zadina had consistently been ranked 3rd in pretty much all pre-draft rankings for the full year. I think there's a case to be made that he should have stayed in the minors longer, and a case to be made that he should only be playing 3rd line minutes in Detroit now. Both may have improved his NHL ppg when he finally WAS ready. But I don't think fans were expecting unreasonable things from a guy who was billed as a top three, offensive dynamo, before he was drafted.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

36 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think fan expectations were appropriate considering Zadina had consistently been ranked 3rd in pretty much all pre-draft rankings for the full year. I think there's a case to be made that he should have stayed in the minors longer, and a case to be made that he should only be playing 3rd line minutes in Detroit now. Both may have improved his NHL ppg when he finally WAS ready. But I don't think fans were expecting unreasonable things from a guy who was billed as a top three, offensive dynamo, before he was drafted.

You all about draft hype all of a sudden? 

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 minutes ago, number10 said:

Literally nobody had Zadina going to Detroit at 6. Felt like we had a top 3 pick fall into our lap at the time. 

Thank f*** we have Stevie now. He would be set on his player regardless of Zadina. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I think fan expectations were appropriate considering Zadina had consistently been ranked 3rd in pretty much all pre-draft rankings for the full year. I think there's a case to be made that he should have stayed in the minors longer, and a case to be made that he should only be playing 3rd line minutes in Detroit now. Both may have improved his NHL ppg when he finally WAS ready. But I don't think fans were expecting unreasonable things from a guy who was billed as a top three, offensive dynamo, before he was drafted.

This is why I think he is considered more of a bust. He is being judged on pre-draft hype vs his actual draft position. If he was a "reach" at 6OA as opposed to falling to 6OA, the "bust" label wouldn't be there. 

Zadina was over ranked on a lot of draft boards, but wasnt as highly thought of by at least 3 teams. The only fair way to evaluate him is by where he was actually drafted.

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

17 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Thank f*** we have Stevie now. He would be set on his player regardless of Zadina. 

Stevie isn't perfect. Brett Connolly was a 6OA pick with a sub 0.4PPG career. Who's  to say he wouldn't have taking Zadina? 

Drafting is hard. 

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Stevie isn't perfect. Brett Connolly was a 6OA pick with a sub 0.4PPG career. Who's  to say he wouldn't have taking Zadina? 

Drafting is hard. 

 

Yzerman's BPA seems to drastically differ from the consensus tho based on his Seider, Cossa, and Edvinsson picks. Even Raymond wasn't considered the 4th best prospect on a lot of boards.

I'm not so sure he would have considered Zadina as BPA at 6. He probably would have gone with Bouchard or Wahlstrom there.

[kipwinger 8,524]

On 11/9/2021 at 6:21 PM, The 91 of Ryans said:

You all about draft hype all of a sudden? 

Nope, you and I both know I'll buck a trend when I think it's appropriate. But most fans ARE all about draft hype you made a comment about about "fan expectations vs. reality". That's what I was responding to. Like most people I thought we were getting a very skilled offensive player in Zadina. So far that hasn't been the case.

[redw1ngs 149]

Zadina isnt the sniper at this point that we thought we were getting at 6oa but he is still a very skilled offensive player. He passes the eye test and while the point production hasnt been where it needs to be yet his underlying stats are very good. The question isnt if hes a top6w its if hes a 1w or 2w.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, redw1ngs said:

Zadina isnt the sniper at this point that we thought we were getting at 6oa but he is still a very skilled offensive player. He passes the eye test and while the point production hasnt been where it needs to be yet his underlying stats are very good. The question isnt if hes a top6w its if hes a 1w or 2w.

I think you're being overly generous. Zadina looks to me like a young middle 6 forward with the chance of becoming a solid 2W. I think 1W is now above his ceiling.

[redw1ngs 149]

10 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I think you're being overly generous. Zadina looks to me like a young middle 6 forward with the chance of becoming a solid 2W. I think 1W is now above his ceiling.

A 2w is approx 35-45pt player. Zadina is already scoring at that pace at 21yrs old. Hes a puck hound plays well in all 3 zones. The underlying stats are good the pts will improve. A 1w is 50+pts player. If you dont believe Zadinas pts will improve at all then I guess hes just a solid 2w.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

40 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

A 2w is approx 35-45pt player. Zadina is already scoring at that pace at 21yrs old. Hes a puck hound plays well in all 3 zones. The underlying stats are good the pts will improve. A 1w is 50+pts player. If you dont believe Zadinas pts will improve at all then I guess hes just a solid 2w.

I agree with you.  He's making great progress for a 21 year old.  There is zero reason to compare him to Lucas Raymond and demand that he performs like Raymond.  When Vrana gets back, Zadina will see a lot more room on the ice.  Vrana-Suter-Zadina gonna be a real good 2nd line for us.

[redw1ngs 149]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I agree with you.  He's making great progress for a 21 year old.  There is zero reason to compare him to Lucas Raymond and demand that he performs like Raymond.  When Vrana gets back, Zadina will see a lot more room on the ice.  Vrana-Suter-Zadina gonna be a real good 2nd line for us.

Ya, Raymond will be a elite 90-100pt 1w. Zadina wont get to that level but he could be an average 50-60pt 1w.

Both are also very strong defensively for there age.

[bIueadams 776]

I love the shifting goal posts

In 2018 CRL (smart man) called Zadina a Hudler-esque 2nd line winger at best. Everyone lost their minds.

Today: Zadina is probably just a 2nd liner winger, and the Zadina haters are wrong because that's good.

Whatever keeps you going

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

I love the shifting goal posts

In 2018 CRL (smart man) called Zadina a Hudler-esque 2nd line winger at best. Everyone lost their minds.

Today: Zadina is probably just a 2nd liner winger, and the Zadina haters are wrong because that's good.

Whatever keeps you going

Nope. The argument was about whether or not Zadina was a "bust" or not. And how good he would be. I think Hudler was a bad comparison based on size, playing style, and off the ice antics. I think Tatar is probably a more accurate ceiling, while Jarnkrok is a more accurate floor. Just my opinion. And I don't think he's a "bust" based on that.

Also, looks like you got "hacked" again.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, redw1ngs said:

A 2w is approx 35-45pt player. Zadina is already scoring at that pace at 21yrs old. Hes a puck hound plays well in all 3 zones. The underlying stats are good the pts will improve. A 1w is 50+pts player. If you dont believe Zadinas pts will improve at all then I guess hes just a solid 2w.

Right now, it seems his defense is a better asset than his offense. That says "middle six" winger to me. He needs to put up more offense to solidify himself as a top 6 winger IMO. I have been waiting for that jump for 2 years and haven't seen it yet. I see occasional flashes. I've seen some good passing and power plays from him. But I think we can all agree that he is never gonna be the offensive minded goal scorer he was billed to be. 

[redw1ngs 149]

22 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Right now, it seems his defense is a better asset than his offense. That says "middle six" winger to me. He needs to put up more offense to solidify himself as a top 6 winger IMO. I have been waiting for that jump for 2 years and haven't seen it yet. I see occasional flashes. I've seen some good passing and power plays from him. But I think we can all agree that he is never gonna be the offensive minded goal scorer he was billed to be. 

I think expectations for 6oa pick are to high and expectations for top6 winger are to high. At 21yo Zadina is on par for both. His game should evolve beyond age 21. Right now hes producing as a 2w add another 10 points hes a low end 1w another 10 and hes average 1w.

[AtlantaHotWings 988]

He also blew his horn ....I will fill their nets with goals or similar bravado. So fanbase thought we got a #3 at 6th and he is confident lad. So I would say he helped pump the tires on potential. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

He also blew his horn ....I will fill their nets with goals or similar bravado. So fanbase thought we got a #3 at 6th and he is confident lad. So I would say he helped pump the tires on potential. 

The tire pumper drafted by the tire kicker brought to you by the Belle Tire Co.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[bIueadams 776]

 

[kipwinger 8,524]

Red Wings are on of many team rumored to be interested in Jake DeBrusk: https://www.thefourthperiod.com/dec-2021/several-teams-interested-in-debrusk#.Yaeq1LpJEfQ.twitter

[Akakabuto 1,751]

21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Red Wings are on of many team rumored to be interested in Jake DeBrusk: https://www.thefourthperiod.com/dec-2021/several-teams-interested-in-debrusk#.Yaeq1LpJEfQ.twitter

Any word on what BOS is looking for in return?

[kipwinger 8,524]

Just now, Akakabuto said:

Any word on what BOS is looking for in return?

Not that I've seen so far. I do see that DeBrusk has had two pretty bad seasons in a row so you'd have to think the asking price is at an all time low despite his really solid production the three years before that.

I don't really know anything about this guy, except that when I look at his highlights I immediately recognize how many of his points come from deflections and rebounds. Seems like he'd be a good get for that alone.