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2020 Draft Thread

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14 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Schooled? How so? I'm well aware of our goalie history...

I'm making the point that it's more important to have elite players (forwards / defense) and good goaltending, than it is to have an elite goaltender behind good, not great players. Your counter to that was the stacked Wings teams of the early to mid 90's that came up short. The problem with that theory is that while Cheveldae and Essensa may have been bad, Vernon and Osgood weren't that much better. If anything, you're proving my point. The elite, power-house Red Wings teams of the late 90's won, despite good, not great goaltending. 

Mike Vernon is the most underrated goalie of his era, he should be in the HOF.  I'm with you on Osgood though. 

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2 minutes ago, mackel said:

Mike Vernon is the most underrated goalie of his era, he should be in the HOF.  I'm with you on Osgood though. 

Both deserve to be in the HOF, although Osgood did'nt always deserve it in my mind until his playoff performances in 2008-2009. That was some elite level s*** there.

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32 minutes ago, mackel said:

Mike Vernon is the most underrated goalie of his era, he should be in the HOF.  I'm with you on Osgood though. 

Underrated or not, he was never elite. Certainly not in his time in Detroit. I would argue that Osgood was better than Vernon during his tenure with the Wings. Either way, both were good, not great, and in the end, that's all a team needs to win. Which is why I'm against taking Askarov at 4, or any goalie in the top 10.

Elite player >>> Elite goalie

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4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Underrated or not, he was never elite. Certainly not in his time in Detroit. I would argue that Osgood was better than Vernon during his tenure with the Wings. Either way, both were good, not great, and in the end, that's all a team needs to win. Which is why I'm against taking Askarov at 4, or any goalie in the top 10.

Elite player >>> Elite goalie

Of course you'd argue, that's your default setting... however Vernie was right there numerically with the guys of his era and was out conn smythe winner.  

He also played against those stacked Oilers teams more than say Patty Roy... his numbers are as good or better than guys like Fuhr.

If Vernie wasn't elite he was what every comes just before it.

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

Of course you'd argue, that's your default setting...

Imagine how fun this place would be if everyone agreed on everything...

1 hour ago, mackel said:

Vernie was right there numerically with the guys of his era and was out conn smythe winner.  

He also played against those stacked Oilers teams more than say Patty Roy... his numbers are as good or better than guys like Fuhr.

If Vernie wasn't elite he was what every comes just before it.

Vernon won the Conn Smythe that year because he played out of his mind. Good goaltenders have the capability to play great (elite) for stretches. Vernon was able to do so in the '97 playoffs, and Osgood in the '08 / '09 playoffs. Neither were elite on a consistent basis though in my opinion.

Both were also 3rd round picks, furthering my point that you don't need to pick a goaltender in the 1st round to get strong goaltending. I didn't need Vernon or Osgood to prove that though... There's a much longer list of elite goaltenders taken outside the 1st round, than there are goaltenders taken inside the 1st round...

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Hi folks

I am unsure why some people view goaltending as a lesser position. Maybe someone can it explain it to me?

Forwards are important. Defenders are important. Goalies are important. You need a strong mix of all three to be a good team. The Detroit Red Wings need serious help and a blue chip at all 3 positions. We should be taking the best available player regardless of position. There seems to be a good chance that that player is Slava Askarov. But personally I like Marco Rossi at #4.

Thanks and best regards all

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2 hours ago, CatBoyRossi said:

Hi folks

I am unsure why some people view goaltending as a lesser position. Maybe someone can it explain it to me?

Forwards are important. Defenders are important. Goalies are important. You need a strong mix of all three to be a good team. The Detroit Red Wings need serious help and a blue chip at all 3 positions. We should be taking the best available player regardless of position. There seems to be a good chance that that player is Slava Askarov. But personally I like Marco Rossi at #4.

Thanks and best regards all

yours truly,

@ChristopherReevesLegs
 

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

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23 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm going to have to assume that the post you quoted was the only one of half a dozen or so posts you actually read from me yesterday... I get skimming some posts, especially some of the longer ones. Everyone does it. But you completely missed on several of my points. Maybe you disagree with all of them, but the post you quoted completely misses the overall point I was making, or trying to make...

I absolutely did skip entire posts and very quickly skim some others. I'll take your word for it that I did you kind of dirty by quoting only that one part. Wasn't trying to beef with you or be disingenuous. I saw you said you don't get why anyone would have any interest in taking Askarov at 4 or even trading back a bit for him, and I offered an answer.

I feel I hit on the relevant points. I didn't knock them out of the park, but that wasn't really my intention. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Askarov probably wouldn't be my pick at 4, if I'm Yzerman.

On 7/14/2020 at 7:41 AM, krsmith17 said:

I fully admit that Askarov has elite potential. I still wouldn't pick him at 4th overall. I would never consider a goaltender in the top 10, under any circumstances. No matter how high his ceiling, because I believe his floor is always going to be that much lower (bust potential, that much higher).

I'm generally of the same mind. But what I think is worth considering here is the fact that Askarov is so much better than the typical top first-year draft-eligible goalie. He appears to be a special case.

On 7/14/2020 at 7:41 AM, krsmith17 said:

Let's just say that we know right now that Askarov is going to be the top goaltender in the league in five years, and Raymond (for example) is going to be the 10th best winger in the league in five years. Who would you rather have on your team? For me, it's still the forward, because I believe skaters have a bigger impact in more facets of the game.

I also think it's much more likely that Raymond becomes a top 10 winger, than it is that Askarov becomes the top goaltender. Because like you said, goalies are voodoo. And like I said, we can't afford to miss on these top picks.

I think I'd probably take the top goalie in the league over the 10th best winger.

A team is made up of lots of skaters and only two goalies; those goalies will have an enormous impact on your team's fortunes. Your goaltending can very easily make you and very easily break you. I'd say that's especially true for teams that aren't loaded with top-end talent.

Realistically, that's the kind of team we're building. One that's going to need A LOT from its goaltender(s).

22 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You DO NOT use a 4th overall pick to fill a hole that can easily be filled in free agency.

You use a 4th overall pick to draft players that are never available in free agency.

That is all.

I get where you're coming from and I don't strongly disagree with your logic...but, at the same time, I think you're slightly overselling the caliber of candidates available at 4th overall. And I say that as someone who feels this is an unusually deep draft class.

Again tho, I'm playing devil's advocate. At most, I'm Askarov-curious.

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22 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I'm generally of the same mind. But what I think is worth considering here is the fact that Askarov is so much better than the typical top first-year draft-eligible goalie. He appears to be a special case.

This wouldn't be the first goaltender that was touted as being a "can't miss", elite, number one though. He may be the best goaltender prospect pre-draft since Carey Price, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to the NHL. He could just as easily become the next Jonathan Bernier or Jack Campbell. He'll likely be better than those guys, likely a number one, but will he be elite? Maybe?...

44 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think I'd probably take the top goalie in the league over the 10th best winger.

Fair enough. I'd take the forward for sure. There will also be centers available at 4, that I would take before Askarov as well.

Keep in mind, the 10th best winger, is still over a point per game player, and your number one goaltender is only playing 55-60 games a season, at most. Would you rather have Mitch Marner or Andrei Vasilevskiy? I'd slightly lean Marner, but I'd heavily lean Marner if the likelihood of the winger hitting that ceiling was much higher than the goalie hitting that ceiling, which I believe to be the case. #goaliesarevoodoo

58 minutes ago, Dabura said:

A team is made up of lots of skaters and only two goalies; those goalies will have an enormous impact on your team's fortunes. Your goaltending can very easily make you and very easily break you. I'd say that's especially true for teams that aren't loaded with top-end talent.

Even the elite of the elite goaltenders will have off games, and lose a game their team should have otherwise won.

59 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Realistically, that's the kind of team we're building. One that's going to need A LOT from its goaltender(s).

What?!? Why would any GM "build a team that needs a LOT from it's goaltender(s)"? That's the team we have right now, but that's definitely not the team Yzerman is trying to build... 

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Admittedly I don't know s*** about goalies, but I'd have to give a long hard look at Askarov at 4. If your scouts genuinely believe that he's going to be another Price/Lundqvist/Luongo then he absolutely makes sense at 4th. But I have no idea what the likelihood of that is.

Otherwise, there's no reason to overthink this. We need to take a center. We've been searching for a 2nd line center since Stephen Weiss. We have all the goal scoring on the wing we'd ever want. Mantha (if his dumbass would stop fighting) scores at the same rate as other top power forwards (like Ratanen) without half the talent around him. Zadina's goal scoring skills are obvious despite playing with total puds all year. Even our complimentary guy (Bert) scored over 20 goals. But we HAVE to get a center with dynamic offense. A guy that can kill teams on the half boards on the powerplay. A guy that can generate offense in all situations when you need it. I don't see Perfetti as a center. So it's either Rossi, Stutzle (if someone REALLY likes Drysdale) or (maybe) Hendrix Lapiere in a trade back scenario. The last one is risky because of his injury a year ago, but he was easily on his way to being a top 5-10 player before it.

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Also, I really like Jeremie Poirier with the 32nd overall pick. He's the best offensive defenseman in the draft by a pretty wide margin, but he's a liability defensively. Seems like that will drop him into the 2nd round. But he's a late birthday so he's got a little more immaturity in his game that you'd expect to round out as he matures. Rossi and Poirier and I'm a happy guy on draft day.

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20 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

This wouldn't be the first goaltender that was touted as being a "can't miss", elite, number one though. He may be the best goaltender prospect pre-draft since Carey Price, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to the NHL. He could just as easily become the next Jonathan Bernier or Jack Campbell. He'll likely be better than those guys, likely a number one, but will he be elite? Maybe?...

You'd have to be a fool to believe that Askarov is a guaranteed stud NHLer. But here's the thing: You'd have to be a fool to believe that *any* of our options at 4th overall is a guaranteed stud NHLer.

Maybe an elite goalie prospect is more of a boom/bust proposition than an elite skater prospect. But I guess my thinking is that if Yzerman does take Askarov at 4th overall (or trades back a bit and takes him at around 10th overall), that means Yzerman is crazy about him, and I'd have to respect that and give Yzerman the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

I highly doubt we're taking Askarov with our first pick, so this is all probably moot anyway.

21 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Keep in mind, the 10th best winger, is still over a point per game player, and your number one goaltender is only playing 55-60 games a season, at most. Would you rather have Mitch Marner or Andrei Vasilevskiy? I'd slightly lean Marner, but I'd heavily lean Marner if the likelihood of the winger hitting that ceiling was much higher than the goalie hitting that ceiling, which I believe to be the case. #goaliesarevoodoo

Fair.

21 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

What?!? Why would any GM "build a team that needs a LOT from it's goaltender(s)"? That's the team we have right now, but that's definitely not the team Yzerman is trying to build... 

What I mean is that we're probably not going to emerge from this rebuild with a mouthwatering core of former top-three draft picks. The way this rebuild is trending, we're probably going to be more blue-collar than white-collar, more 2019 Blues than 2019 Lightning.

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17 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Otherwise, there's no reason to overthink this. We need to take a center. We've been searching for a 2nd line center since Stephen Weiss. We have all the goal scoring on the wing we'd ever want. Mantha (if his dumbass would stop fighting) scores at the same rate as other top power forwards (like Ratanen) without half the talent around him. Zadina's goal scoring skills are obvious despite playing with total puds all year. Even our complimentary guy (Bert) scored over 20 goals. But we HAVE to get a center with dynamic offense. A guy that can kill teams on the half boards on the powerplay. A guy that can generate offense in all situations when you need it. I don't see Perfetti as a center. So it's either Rossi, Stutzle (if someone REALLY likes Drysdale) or (maybe) Hendrix Lapiere in a trade back scenario. The last one is risky because of his injury a year ago, but he was easily on his way to being a top 5-10 player before it.

How confident are we that Rossi or Stutzle will be a full-time centerman tho? I love Rossi as a two-way playmaking centerman at the CHL level, but it's certainly possible he settles in as a winger at the pro level. I mean, I'm down with Rossi or Stutzle at 4 even if we fully believe they're full-time wingers. But if we want a guy who's guaranteed to be a solid top-six centerman, Anton Lundell might be our best bet. There are questions about his scoring upside, but people seem to agree that you'd be getting at least a 2C with legit Selke potential.

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17 minutes ago, Dabura said:

You'd have to be a fool to believe that Askarov is a guaranteed stud NHLer. But here's the thing: You'd have to be a fool to believe that *any* of our options at 4th overall is a guaranteed stud NHLer.

Maybe an elite goalie prospect is more of a boom/bust proposition than an elite skater prospect. But I guess my thinking is that if Yzerman does take Askarov at 4th overall (or trades back a bit and takes him at around 10th overall), that means Yzerman is crazy about him, and I'd have to respect that and give Yzerman the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

Yeah, I don't think Raymond is a can't miss, elite prospect, but I do think he's a "safer" pick, with just as high a ceiling as Askarov. None of this is even my biggest qualm with taking the goalie though. It's just a matter of what you believe to be the best way to construct a team... Personally, I would prefer to build my team around an elite forward core, with solid defense, and good goaltending, rather than elite goaltending and an average team in front of him...

17 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I highly doubt we're taking Askarov with our first pick, so this is all probably moot anyway.

Let's hope...

17 minutes ago, Dabura said:

What I mean is that we're probably not going to emerge from this rebuild with a mouthwatering core of former top-three draft picks. The way this rebuild is trending, we're probably going to be more blue-collar than white-collar, more 2019 Blues than 2019 Lightning.

I guess I get what you're trying to say, but to be fair, the Blues have been one of the better shot suppression teams in the league the past couple years. Binnington has been good, but he's had a lot of help in front of him too. If we can build a team like the 2019 St. Louis Blues, I think we'll be in pretty good shape... I mean, they did just win the Stanley Cup with a solid goaltender picked in the 3rd round... ;)

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On 7/14/2020 at 7:10 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Neither Vernon nor Osgood belong in the HHOF.

hater

 

On a more serious note...Ozzie/Vernon/Cujo had some impressive numbers - they also played in the 'dead puck era' with low scoring/heavy minded D, and were up against other netminders during this same time who are in the HoF (Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour).

That said - I can see both Ozzie/Cujo getting in on really 'slow' years where the HoF committee may be a tad bit desperate on whom to nominate.

19 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Admittedly I don't know s*** about goalies, but I'd have to give a long hard look at Askarov at 4. If your scouts genuinely believe that he's going to be another Price/Lundqvist/Luongo then he absolutely makes sense at 4th. But I have no idea what the likelihood of that is.

Must agree here...

Eyebrows were raised with Seider on draft day - however it appears that he's shaping into a top pair Dman...If there's a high probability of Askarov becoming the next Price/Luongo/Lundqvist - then I'd be a happy camper if he was selected.

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6 hours ago, Dabura said:

How confident are we that Rossi or Stutzle will be a full-time centerman tho? I love Rossi as a two-way playmaking centerman at the CHL level, but it's certainly possible he settles in as a winger at the pro level. I mean, I'm down with Rossi or Stutzle at 4 even if we fully believe they're full-time wingers. But if we want a guy who's guaranteed to be a solid top-six centerman, Anton Lundell might be our best bet. There are questions about his scoring upside, but people seem to agree that you'd be getting at least a 2C with legit Selke potential.

We need a center with offense. If Yzerman and the scouts don't think any of those guys are going to be centers, then take the defenseman or goalie and draft your 2C next year. However I really haven't seen any credible sources say that Rossi A) isn't going to be a center, and B) isn't going to be a 70+ point guy (or better).

We definitely don't need a guy like Lundell, as that's basically what we have in Veleno. You've got to have guys that can generate offense in different ways. Specifically we need guys who can run the powerplay off the half wall like Dats and Z used to do. We've got shooters in Mantha and Zadina but nobody on the other side who is really good at getting pucks through to them. Larkin is a good 5 on 5 scorer, and especially good in transition, but his playmaking from the blueline in isn't that good.

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7 hours ago, Dabura said:

How confident are we that Rossi or Stutzle will be a full-time centerman tho? I love Rossi as a two-way playmaking centerman at the CHL level, but it's certainly possible he settles in as a winger at the pro level. I mean, I'm down with Rossi or Stutzle at 4 even if we fully believe they're full-time wingers. But if we want a guy who's guaranteed to be a solid top-six centerman, Anton Lundell might be our best bet. There are questions about his scoring upside, but people seem to agree that you'd be getting at least a 2C with legit Selke potential.

Rossi will be a center. Stutzle will be a pivot, playing more on the wing. Lundell sounds like another Larkin. We need better.

6 hours ago, F.Michael said:

hater

No. Just not a homer. Somewhere in between.

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6 hours ago, F.Michael said:

hater

 

On a more serious note...Ozzie/Vernon/Cujo had some impressive numbers - they also played in the 'dead puck era' with low scoring/heavy minded D, and were up against other netminders during this same time who are in the HoF (Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour).

That said - I can see both Ozzie/Cujo getting in on really 'slow' years where the HoF committee may be a tad bit desperate on whom to nominate.

Must agree here...

Eyebrows were raised with Seider on draft day - however it appears that he's shaping into a top pair Dman...If there's a high probability of Askarov becoming the next Price/Luongo/Lundqvist - then I'd be a happy camper if he was selected.

Vernon played the majority of his career before the DPE, Cujo played 70% on the DPE and Ozzie played almost entirely in the DPE.

Of those 3 I Think Vernon and Ozzie are hall worthy, in that order, Cujo not so much...  He may get some kudos for the 1996 World Cup and Championships but he didn't win anything.

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12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Also, I really like Jeremie Poirier with the 32nd overall pick. He's the best offensive defenseman in the draft by a pretty wide margin, but he's a liability defensively. Seems like that will drop him into the 2nd round. But he's a late birthday so he's got a little more immaturity in his game that you'd expect to round out as he matures. Rossi and Poirier and I'm a happy guy on draft day.

Ehhhhh.   I'm not that impressed with Poirer video (what do I know?) thus I'm hoping for a nice drop down guy at 32.   Lapierre, Khusnutdinov, Peterka or a small handful more.   Hopefully someone surprising similar or better than  Veleno.   

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Is there anyone named Pavel,  Hank or NickLid in this draft?     I'm sure Stevie Y is happy that Hakan Andersson didn't follow Kenny out west, and will take his advice all day long.    Fingers crossed for a gem or two.

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16 hours ago, kipwinger said:

We need a center with offense. If Yzerman and the scouts don't think any of those guys are going to be centers, then take the defenseman or goalie and draft your 2C next year. However I really haven't seen any credible sources say that Rossi A) isn't going to be a center, and B) isn't going to be a 70+ point guy (or better).

We definitely don't need a guy like Lundell, as that's basically what we have in Veleno. You've got to have guys that can generate offense in different ways. Specifically we need guys who can run the powerplay off the half wall like Dats and Z used to do. We've got shooters in Mantha and Zadina but nobody on the other side who is really good at getting pucks through to them. Larkin is a good 5 on 5 scorer, and especially good in transition, but his playmaking from the blueline in isn't that good.

https://dobberprospects.com/robinson-final-2020-nhl-draft-rankings-june-2020/

Quote
  1. Marco Rossi, C / 09-23-01 / 5’9 183lbs / OHL

The CHL leading scorer can beat you in any number of ways. His shot is quick and accurate. His hands have magic woven into them. Despite his size, he’s excessively strong in his core and legs. He may not live in the middle of the ice in the NHL, but he has elite two-way upside even from the wing.

https://www.tsn.ca/anton-lundell-centre-1.1470956

Quote

Anton Lundell - Centre

"Very solid two-way centre who can be the conscience defensively for a line but also capable of getting the puck into the right places and on the right sticks to create offence."

Projection: Middle Six Two-Way Centre
Comparable: Phillip Danault

If I'm taking Rossi in the top 5, it'd mostly be for his playmaking and two-way prowess. He could be a monster producer at the NHL level, but I'd be banking on him being more of a heavy-lifting two-way matchup guy who doesn't put up a ton of points but more than makes up for it in other ways. In that sense, I'm not sure there's as big a gap between Rossi and Lundell as people might think. That's not a knock on Rossi, mind you. I'm just saying we shouldn't discount what adding another Larkin/Veleno could do for our offense.

I know we're kind of down on Larkin after the disappointing season he just had, but he was literally our only legitimate top-six centerman this season -- and every team knew it and gameplanned accordingly. Add another Larkin or two to the mix and I figure you'll see Larkin's production go up and stay up, as he wouldn't be facing the other team's top talent on every shift. Having three excellent two-way pivots would free Larkin up and it'd have the same effect for the other two, at least in theory. Basically: Larkin as we currently know him isn't necessarily even the real Larkin.

A center group of Larkin, Rossi, Veleno and/or Rasmussen could be an unholy matchup nightmare for the opposition simply because any of those three or four guys could (theoretically) be counted on to shut down top talent. If we're going to get back to being a puck-possession powerhouse that's able to relentlessly ram the puck down teams' throats because we're just that good in the D-zone and in the neutral zone and in transition, loading up on Larkin types at center might be how we get there.

And if Rossi isn't a full-time centerman? Well, I figure being hard-matched against a line of Rossi-Larkin-Mantha/Bertuzzi/Zadina/Rasmussen/[marquee UFA] would be a pretty miserable experience, especially if Seider's jumping up into the play like a fourth forward at every opportunity and throwing his weight around in all three zones.

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