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Dabura

2020 Draft Thread

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39 minutes ago, TLGTrico said:

If we take a center, that center had BETTER be good enough to push Larkin down to the 2c spot.

Well there's really only one center expected to be available at 4th overall that has that kind of upside (Rossi). Maybe two others if you include Perfetti (who doesn't even play center consistently in the CHL) and Lapierre (who's had about a zillion injuries).

Here's the thing with Rossi though. People say he's "two way" as some kind of slight when in reality he's elite in both areas of the game. He led the CHL in points, more points than Lafreniere, more points than Byfield, more points than Perfetti. He's a dominant offensive player.  AND his defense is just as good.  So are his face offs. So is his special teams play. If he were literally two inches taller he'd be in the running for first overall.  He has MUCH greater offensive upside than any center on our team AND he's excellent defensively. Which is why he gets compared to Backstrom a lot. 80+ point playmaker with world class defense is not an unrealistic ceiling for him.

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4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

There's a lot here so I'll streamline.

1. Dobberprospects is not "credible". It's just some guy on the internet.

2. Lundell doesn't have dynamic offense, at any level, which is why I don't want him. Sure he'll can "get pucks on the right sticks". So could Filppula, back in the day, but if I want someone to provide timely offense I'm probably not looking at Flip either.

3. I'm not down on Larkin. I'm just pointing out that he's not the kind of guy who's going to eat teams alive off the half wall on the PP. AND he's not an especially creative passer. I'm really looking for a Backstrom, Giroux, type of guy here.  That ain't Larkin.

4. Again, if the scouts don't think Rossi, or Perfetti, or anyone else is going to be an offensive dynamo at center, then pass on them. "Loading up on Larkins" isn't a good strategy because you have to be able to score in different ways. Even strength vs. powerplay, transition vs. cycle, skill vs. crashing the net. All create offense, but all require different skill sets.

Larkin is a really good 2C or a platoon 1C with, well another Larkin type.  We need a dynamic player or two.  We have alot of 2nd and and 3rd liners in our rebuild we NEED elite skill... which is why sliding to 4th was such a kick in the nuts...  we'll probably get a good player but we'll only know in 3 years time.

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Well there's really only one center expected to be available at 4th overall that has that kind of upside (Rossi). Maybe two others if you include Perfetti (who doesn't even play center consistently in the CHL) and Lapierre (who's had about a zillion injuries).

Here's the thing with Rossi though. People say he's "two way" as some kind of slight when in reality he's elite in both areas of the game. He led the CHL in points, more points than Lafreniere, more points than Byfield, more points than Perfetti. He's a dominant offensive player.  AND his defense is just as good.  So are his face offs. So is his special teams play. If he were literally two inches taller he'd be in the running for first overall.  He has MUCH greater offensive upside than any center on our team AND he's excellent defensively. Which is why he gets compared to Backstrom a lot. 80+ point playmaker with world class defense is not an unrealistic ceiling for him.

I'm in.

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Honestly, the thing I like about Rossi the most though is how dedicated he seems to be. Everybody who profiles him talks about how he's constantly working on aspects of his game. Those are always the kinds of guys who push through and find new levels to their game. That's what Datsyuk did. That's what Zetterberg did. Those weren't guys with amazing physical attributes. They were guys that played the game correctly and never quit looking for an improvement or an edge or a way to impact the game.

I'm trying to find the quote now, but in an interview earlier this year Rossi's coach said something to the effect of "If you told Marco that eating raisins every day for a year would improve his game he'd go out and do it". That's awesome as hell.

Edited by kipwinger

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28 minutes ago, TLGTrico said:

I think you guys may have swayed me from Raymond to Rossi.

If I were going to take a winger, and that's a huge IF, it would be Holtz and not Raymond anyway. He's much more physically developed and has the high end goal scoring you want out of the wing position. A righty with a cannon of a shot would look good on our powerplay half wall a la Ovechkin or Stamkos or Laine. Raymond is showy, which is cool on youtube and all but I kinda don't care about dekes and s***.

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Give me showy youtube clips of lucas raymond and his very limited minutes played last season in a mens league over a 5’8 smurf in rossi  who played with kids who’d get knocked around come playoffs any day

Word on the street is raymond would eat an apple every day for two years to get s*** done, give me lucas

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41 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Give me showy youtube clips of lucas raymond and his very limited minutes played last season in a mens league over a 5’8 smurf in rossi  who played with kids who’d get knocked around come playoffs any day

Word on the street is raymond would eat an apple every day for two years to get s*** done, give me lucas

Wow, you took my posts waaaaay personally. It’s okay, just breathe. You’re allowed to prefer any player you like big guy.

Edited by kipwinger

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12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

1. Dobberprospects is not "credible". It's just some guy on the internet.

I mean, if you really want to take the position that every NHL amateur scout and Credible Analyst believes Rossi is a centerman at the NHL level, more power to you. I'm guessing those people are not all on the same page on the matter.

Honestly tho, it doesn't really matter to me. I think Rossi has the potential to be our top centerman if he's a centerman and our top winger if he's a winger. I'm not sure there's enough there in his game to allow him to be a powerhouse NHL producer (keep in mind: he's one of the elder statesemen of this draft class and he played for a very good CHL team this season), but what I like about him is how rounded and mature his game is and how many positive intangibles he seems to bring to the table.

Basically, I see Rossi as closer to Ryan O'Reilly (or maybe Brayden Point?) than to Nathan MacKinnon, and I'm totally good with that, and I'd be totally good with having potentially three O'Reilly-esque two-way workhorses in Rossi, Larkin, Veleno. If that's our center group, I wouldn't be too concerned that our center group might not be able to generate offense in enough different ways, as I think there's actually a pretty good variety of strengths and styles there. When I talk about "loading up on Larkins," I'm mostly talking two-way ability. I don't mean I want three of the same player. I'm saying having three guys who can eat brutal minutes would be pretty great, in theory.

12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

2. Lundell doesn't have dynamic offense, at any level, which is why I don't want him. Sure he'll can "get pucks on the right sticks". So could Filppula, back in the day, but if I want someone to provide timely offense I'm probably not looking at Flip either.

From what I've seen of Lundell, he's plenty dynamic. I feel that he, like Byfield, hasn't yet realized how good he can be, and that he consciously tried to play conservatively this season because he was a teenaged centerman playing in the Liiga.

I wouldn't take Lundell at 4th overall. But it's entirely possible he'd end up being a better NHLer than the guy I'd pick. I'm not convinced there's a whole lot of separation within this 3ish-10ish range.

Edited by Dabura

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Y'know, I'm talking about how much I like two-way prowess, but there's definitely a part of me that feels like taking anyone other than Holtz at 4 would be overthinking it. Like, Holtz will be taken 8th overall or some such s*** and he'll be scoring 40 goals by 2023 and everyone will say, "Wow, I can't believe the guy who was scoring goals in the SHL in his draft season is scoring goals in the NHL. Crazy!"

I like Mantha and I like Zadina, but I'd like them even more if they were our second and third scoring wingers behind a legit monster goal-scoring winger.

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7 hours ago, Dabura said:

Y'know, I'm talking about how much I like two-way prowess, but there's definitely a part of me that feels like taking anyone other than Holtz at 4 would be overthinking it. Like, Holtz will be taken 8th overall or some such s*** and he'll be scoring 40 goals by 2023 and everyone will say, "Wow, I can't believe the guy who was scoring goals in the SHL in his draft season is scoring goals in the NHL. Crazy!"

I like Mantha and I like Zadina, but I'd like them even more if they were our second and third scoring wingers behind a legit monster goal-scoring winger.

...And then I wake up in the morning and say to myself, "Wait! How are we not leaning towards Drysdale?!"

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10 hours ago, Dabura said:

I mean, if you really want to take the position that every NHL amateur scout and Credible Analyst believes Rossi is a centerman at the NHL level, more power to you. I'm guessing those people are not all on the same page on the matter.

Honestly tho, it doesn't really matter to me. I think Rossi has the potential to be our top centerman if he's a centerman and our top winger if he's a winger. I'm not sure there's enough there in his game to allow him to be a powerhouse NHL producer (keep in mind: he's one of the elder statesemen of this draft class and he played for a very good CHL team this season), but what I like about him is how rounded and mature his game is and how many positive intangibles he seems to bring to the table.

Basically, I see Rossi as closer to Ryan O'Reilly (or maybe Brayden Point?) than to Nathan MacKinnon, and I'm totally good with that, and I'd be totally good with having potentially three O'Reilly-esque two-way workhorses in Rossi, Larkin, Veleno. If that's our center group, I wouldn't be too concerned that our center group might not be able to generate offense in enough different ways, as I think there's actually a pretty good variety of strengths and styles there. When I talk about "loading up on Larkins," I'm mostly talking two-way ability. I don't mean I want three of the same player. I'm saying having three guys who can eat brutal minutes would be pretty great, in theory.

From what I've seen of Lundell, he's plenty dynamic. I feel that he, like Byfield, hasn't yet realized how good he can be, and that he consciously tried to play conservatively this season because he was a teenaged centerman playing in the Liiga.

I wouldn't take Lundell at 4th overall. But it's entirely possible he'd end up being a better NHLer than the guy I'd pick. I'm not convinced there's a whole lot of separation within this 3ish-10ish range.

You’re trying pretty hard to make the case that Rossi has more limited offensive upside than it appears, while making the opposite case for Lundell when the reality is that based on everything we know up to this point the opposite is true. 
 

Whether Rossi becomes a Star remains to be seen, but comparing him to O’Reilly is absurd. OReilly scores 60ish points in 60ish games his draft year. Rossi dropped 120 pts in 56 games. Rossi is routinely praised for his offensive game, especially his passing, stickhandling, and power play effectiveness. O’Reilly has never been a top point producer at any level. These guys are worlds apart offensively.
 

Also, I don’t recall anyone holding Lafrenieres age against him. Nor do I recall you, specifically, questioning Jack Hughes offense because he played on a good team. You think playing with Turcotte, Zegras, Boldy, York, Knight (all 1st rounders a year ago) might have padded his stats a bit?  Yet you seem inclined to do so with Rossi now for some reason.  Perhaps the 67s are really good because they have one of the top 2 or 3 best players in the CHL on their team?
 

You don’t have to prefer the guy, but it seems odd to me that you’re so intent on shoehorning him into this “limited offense but stud two-way” narrative when that doesn’t seem to be the case here, and you’ve shied away from similarly applicable comparisons in the past.

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44 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I would be ok with that. Frankly, I'm hoping LA or OTT take a guy that isn't Stutzle or Byfield so that one of them falls to us.

It's going to happen. I think it'll be Stutzle though, which I would be completely okay with.

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On 7/18/2020 at 10:40 AM, kipwinger said:

You’re trying pretty hard to make the case that Rossi has more limited offensive upside than it appears, while making the opposite case for Lundell when the reality is that based on everything we know up to this point the opposite is true.

What I'm saying is the gap between them is arguably smaller than people are making it out to be. I'm not saying Rossi should go 10th and Lundell should go 11th. I'm saying Rossi's worth a top 3 pick and maybe Lundell's worth taking earlier than people are thinking (especially if a team's really, really hurting for a centerman) and maybe they actually end up being similar players at the NHL level.

Lundell has two Liiga seasons under his belt. That's a men's league, and a pretty good one at that. Last season (2018-19), he put up 9 goals and 19 points through 38 Liiga games. That's pretty impressive. This season, playing center as a teenager in a no-joke men's league, he put up 10 goals and 28 points through 44 Liiga games. That's pretty impressive. I think if Lundell and Rossi trade places at the start of this past season, Lundell probably torches the OHL and Rossi probably puts up pretty impressive numbers in the Liiga.

I've seen Lundell play a couple times. Seen Rossi play a couple times as well. I'd rate Rossi as the more dynamic, high-end talent. I'm on record saying I would('ve) be(en) ok with Yzerman taking him as high as 2nd overall. All that being said, I wouldn't necessarily take Rossi's 120 points at total face value and I wouldn't necessarily sleep on Lundell's scoring upside.

I feel basically the same way about Drysdale-versus-Sanderson. If you had to take one of the two, Drysdale would seem like the no-brainer pick. And yet...2 of Bob McKenzie's 10 scout consultants have Sanderson ranked at No. 3 on their lists, ahead of Drysdale. Would I take Sanderson over Drysdale? Probably not. Do I think there's a case to be made for taking Sanderson over Drysdale and that I could conceivably talk myself into pulling that trigger? Sure.

On 7/18/2020 at 10:40 AM, kipwinger said:

Whether Rossi becomes a Star remains to be seen, but comparing him to O’Reilly is absurd. OReilly scores 60ish points in 60ish games his draft year. Rossi dropped 120 pts in 56 games. Rossi is routinely praised for his offensive game, especially his passing, stickhandling, and power play effectiveness. O’Reilly has never been a top point producer at any level. These guys are worlds apart offensively.

Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in junior.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4tLG8v-ma360UOMrnfgU

On 7/18/2020 at 10:40 AM, kipwinger said:

Also, I don’t recall anyone holding Lafrenieres age against him. Nor do I recall you, specifically, questioning Jack Hughes offense because he played on a good team. You think playing with Turcotte, Zegras, Boldy, York, Knight (all 1st rounders a year ago) might have padded his stats a bit?  Yet you seem inclined to do so with Rossi now for some reason.  Perhaps the 67s are really good because they have one of the top 2 or 3 best players in the CHL on their team?

I'm on record saying one of my exceedingly few concerns about Lafreniere is his age advantage and that I really would've liked to have seen him playing in a men's league this season. I'm of the same mind re: Rossi. I'm also on record saying Byfield being so young is a big deal and that it arguably gives him the highest ceiling of any player in this draft class.

Playing on a good team definitely padded Jack Hughes's stats. I'm pretty sure I said so at least once. If not, oh well. I guess I could've been harder on Hughes. In any case, I pretty much stopped caring about him when the lotto balls didn't go our way, just as I've pretty much stopped caring about Lafreniere.

On 7/18/2020 at 10:40 AM, kipwinger said:

You don’t have to prefer the guy, but it seems odd to me that you’re so intent on shoehorning him into this “limited offense but stud two-way” narrative when that doesn’t seem to be the case here, and you’ve shied away from similarly applicable comparisons in the past.

I *do* prefer the guy. I love Rossi. I'm just spelunking for Cheez-Its in the giant couch that is Red Wings Fans' Shared Ennui, searching for some -- any -- mildly interesting wrinkles that can get us talking about stuff.

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as much as I don't want it to happen, I just can't help but thinking it'll go Laf, Byfield, Stutzle, us...all we need is for ONE team to take a D-man. We know who is #1, I am not sure if Ottawa will take a D man at 3 because they could get a good one at 5, unless they are so high on Drysdale that they take him at 3 to prevent Detroit from taking him. Unless LA takes him at 2...I wonder what their needs are? Maybe they are need of an NHL quality D-man! I would love to see Stutzle or Byfield drop to 4, maybe if LA takes Byfield and Ottawa takes Stutzle at #3, maybe they still want to prevent Detroit from taking Drysdale and offers a swap the 4 for 5 plus an asset or the 33rd? If I am Yzerman (which I am not! :lol:) I would take that trade and draft one of the other forwards at 5. Of course can't let Ottawa know that is what we want, we have to make them think we want the D-man!   ...of course, if they don't want the D-man in the 1st round, then there goes this whole idea! :hysterical:

 

Maybe LA or Ottawa want the Russian goalie? Scenario back on!

Edited by LeftWinger

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On 7/17/2020 at 2:10 PM, kipwinger said:

Well there's really only one center expected to be available at 4th overall that has that kind of upside (Rossi). Maybe two others if you include Perfetti (who doesn't even play center consistently in the CHL) and Lapierre (who's had about a zillion injuries).

Here's the thing with Rossi though. People say he's "two way" as some kind of slight when in reality he's elite in both areas of the game. He led the CHL in points, more points than Lafreniere, more points than Byfield, more points than Perfetti. He's a dominant offensive player.  AND his defense is just as good.  So are his face offs. So is his special teams play. If he were literally two inches taller he'd be in the running for first overall.  He has MUCH greater offensive upside than any center on our team AND he's excellent defensively. Which is why he gets compared to Backstrom a lot. 80+ point playmaker with world class defense is not an unrealistic ceiling for him.

Can we get him and stretch him an inch at least?

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6 hours ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Can we get him and stretch him an inch at least?

How many people do you know who are done growing at 18 years old? But even if he doesn't grow another millimeter, you know who else was 5'9 when he was drafted?

 

image.png.9a96438897a9ad3370fdda9e912f6597.png

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12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

How many people do you know who are done growing at 18 years old? But even if he doesn't grow another millimeter, you know who else was 5'9 when he was drafted?

 

image.png.9a96438897a9ad3370fdda9e912f6597.png

It is a different league now and he had 24 protecting him. No way he is alive after his first season in todays NHL :rolleyes:. 5'9 is like 3/4 of a man these days.

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34 minutes ago, Rick D said:

It is a different league now and he had 24 protecting him. No way he is alive after his first season in todays NHL :rolleyes:. 5'9 is like 3/4 of a man these days.

But the league also cracks down harder on the physical stuff now that they didn't used to. It's easier for smaller players now, because guys are less likely to delve out big hits on them for fear of fines and/or suspensions.

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34 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

But the league also cracks down harder on the physical stuff now that they didn't used to. It's easier for smaller players now, because guys are less likely to delve out big hits on them for fear of fines and/or suspensions.

I was just trying to use the too small argument sarcastically before someone else threw it in there. 

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