2023 Offseason Thread

[Dabura 12,228]

20 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

If we give up and 1sts or former 1sts, I wont be happy.

11 hours ago, town123 said:

We shouldn't be beggars.   Ottawa is under the gun to move him, either now or at the TDL.    For what they paid for him last year, they're going to want a 1st and a 3rd I would guess.   Pass.   If the kid really wants to come home, he can wait a year if the contract terms are right for both parties.

I respect everyone's opinions on this.

But I'm prepared to throw down over this.

Or at least rant a bit.

My opinion: We need scoring punch in the worst way, and we've needed it in the worst way for the better part of a decade, and we've had all these draft picks and all these prospects and all these free agent opportunities and all these trade opportunities.........

.........yet somehow we still desperately need scoring punch.

I wanted Matthew Tkachuk.

"Too expensive," people said.

OK. Fair enough.

But if you want a bigger, grittier, more complete version of DeBrincat, you're basically looking for a unicorn - unless you want to pay out the ass, or unless you get really lucky in the draft.

I think the time's come for us to get serious about really, truly moving forward.

I love David Perron - but I hate that he's one of our top two wingers at this stage of the rebuild. It's unacceptable to me.

We've got a lot of good young players in our system right now, that's true. And that's good. And we'll need them to be good. And they probably will be good.

But there's no rule that says we can't trade for other teams' young players.

We can sit here and say "Nah, f*** this goal-scoring punk. If he REALLY wants to be a Wing, he'll sit out for a year and wait until free agency next summer."

And we can watch that ship sail away.

And that will be the 415th ship we've watched sail away since the start of this rebuild - because "Nah it just didn't make sense for us, given where we're at. I'd rather we do the other thing [which we won't end up doing]."

And we can spend another year losing close games because we can't score goals.

Or.........................

...............we can say "F*** the police" and grab the 25-year-old right-shooting goal-scoring winger right now and sign him to a big deal and take our chances with that investment.

"But do you really want to chance it?"

Yes, I do. We have all the cap flexibility an organization could ever want. All the money in the Bertuzzi fund can now be used for other stuff. All the money in the Vrana fund can now be used for other stuff.

And we also have draft capital.

"Yeah, but our young guys are going to start eating up cap space really quickly."

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. What I care about now is getting solid footing. Tangible things. Known things.

Alex DeBrincat has scored 40 goals twice. He's a natural scorer. He can and will put up points. These are known things.

I don't want to go through the motions for another 82 games and accept that we don't need to ice the best damned lineup we can ice "because it's just not time yet. I think we need at least one more really good draft."

We've been saying "We just need one more really good draft" for the past 500 years. Enough already!

If we can land DeBrincat without giving up our 1st, I think that's a major coup.

Pick a name out of a hat for that pick. Let's call it Nate Danielson.

If we land DeBrincat and Nate Danielson, I think that's bloody fantastic. All of a sudden we're talking about Larkin, Kasper, Danielson, Veleno down the middle. All of a sudden we're talking about flanking those guys with DeBrincat, Raymond, Mazur, et al.

I don't want to wait a second longer than we have to on taking the next step. I don't want to rush it, but I do want to push it. I don't want our young leaders to grow any more accustomed to losing than they already are.

We need to start winning games. We need to start doing that whole "winning culture" thing now - not two or three years from now.

So. Give me a proven scorer. Who's 25 years old. And who shoots right. And who's from Detroit.

[/rant]

[mackel 717]

2 hours ago, town123 said:

 

 

I can't see Dubois signing here long term.   No deal.

 

Way too much for Debrincat IMO.  No deal.

 

I know you kids want to fast track our playoff/competitive quotient, but, this is the last year/or two probably of having a decent chance to load our system, so I don't want to trade away any of our futures for the now.   Our lottery luck has been crappy, (Gary hates us)  and even with Kasper, Eddoggie etc, we're still pretty thin with hopefuls.

 

Take on salary, get extra picks and if our team deserves to make it into the playoffs then great, I just don't want to force it.      

Agreed, that BOS 1st shouldn't be traded until you know where it will fall.  The Bruins are always at risk of falling off a cliff, next year they are capped out, older, and losing UFAs.  That pick could be a top 5 pick in 2025...  until you get a solid feel on the status of that pick hold on to it.

[kipwinger 8,621]

Can someone who knows better tell me, is Bruce Cassiday an awesome coach?

So, Eichel’s a tough b*stard.

[kipwinger 8,621]

The Wings need to sign Barbashev. That dude is a beast. His board play is amazing.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

I respect everyone's opinions on this.

But I'm prepared to throw down over this.

Or at least rant a bit.

My opinion: We need scoring punch in the worst way, and we've needed it in the worst way for the better part of a decade, and we've had all these draft picks and all these prospects and all these free agent opportunities and all these trade opportunities.........

.........yet somehow we still desperately need scoring punch.

I wanted Matthew Tkachuk.

"Too expensive," people said.

OK. Fair enough.

But if you want a bigger, grittier, more complete version of DeBrincat, you're basically looking for a unicorn - unless you want to pay out the ass, or unless you get really lucky in the draft.

I think the time's come for us to get serious about really, truly moving forward.

I love David Perron - but I hate that he's one of our top two wingers at this stage of the rebuild. It's unacceptable to me.

We've got a lot of good young players in our system right now, that's true. And that's good. And we'll need them to be good. And they probably will be good.

But there's no rule that says we can't trade for other teams' young players.

We can sit here and say "Nah, f*** this goal-scoring punk. If he REALLY wants to be a Wing, he'll sit out for a year and wait until free agency next summer."

And we can watch that ship sail away.

And that will be the 415th ship we've watched sail away since the start of this rebuild - because "Nah it just didn't make sense for us, given where we're at. I'd rather we do the other thing [which we won't end up doing]."

And we can spend another year losing close games because we can't score goals.

Or.........................

...............we can say "F*** the police" and grab the 25-year-old right-shooting goal-scoring winger right now and sign him to a big deal and take our chances with that investment.

"But do you really want to chance it?"

Yes, I do. We have all the cap flexibility an organization could ever want. All the money in the Bertuzzi fund can now be used for other stuff. All the money in the Vrana fund can now be used for other stuff.

And we also have draft capital.

"Yeah, but our young guys are going to start eating up cap space really quickly."

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. What I care about now is getting solid footing. Tangible things. Known things.

Alex DeBrincat has scored 40 goals twice. He's a natural scorer. He can and will put up points. These are known things.

I don't want to go through the motions for another 82 games and accept that we don't need to ice the best damned lineup we can ice "because it's just not time yet. I think we need at least one more really good draft."

We've been saying "We just need one more really good draft" for the past 500 years. Enough already!

If we can land DeBrincat without giving up our 1st, I think that's a major coup.

Pick a name out of a hat for that pick. Let's call it Nate Danielson.

If we land DeBrincat and Nate Danielson, I think that's bloody fantastic. All of a sudden we're talking about Larkin, Kasper, Danielson, Veleno down the middle. All of a sudden we're talking about flanking those guys with DeBrincat, Raymond, Mazur, et al.

I don't want to wait a second longer than we have to on taking the next step. I don't want to rush it, but I do want to push it. I don't want our young leaders to grow any more accustomed to losing than they already are.

We need to start winning games. We need to start doing that whole "winning culture" thing now - not two or three years from now.

So. Give me a proven scorer. Who's 25 years old. And who shoots right. And who's from Detroit.

[/rant]

We cant afford to become the maple leafs

[F.Michael 4,590]

On 6/9/2023 at 8:56 PM, Dabura said:

Fair.

But let's consider the positives:

• 25 years old (26 in December)
• Right-handed shot
• Hometown kid who seemingly wouldn't mind coming home
• 2017-18: 28 goals and 52 points in 82 games
• 2018-19: 41 goals and 76 points in 82 games
• 2019-20: 18 goals and 45 points in 70 games
• 2020-21: 32 goals and 56 points in 50 games
• 2021-22: 41 goals and 78 points in 82 games
• 2022-23: 27 goals and 66 points in 82 games

And let's also consider this:

• We can't score goals to save our lives

Basically, we're talking about a young player in his prime who can flat-out produce - and who (if the whispers are to be believed) has the Wings on his short list of teams he wants to play for. If that's not something we're interested in, then I'm honestly not sure what we're even doing.

Do I love the idea of giving up some good pieces and then signing him to a deal that's comparable to Larkin's? Not really, no. But we're beggars, and I dunno that we can afford to pretend we're choosers.

I’m all for the idea of putting lipstick on Zadina to pretty him up as part of the deal…

 

[Akakabuto 1,831]

7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We cant afford to become the maple leafs

The maple leafs thing to do would be to sign Debrincat while already having a young 40-goals scoring winger already on the team. Which we do not. 

[kipwinger 8,621]

What we can't afford to do is fetishize draft picks. Even top picks have a pretty good likelihood of falling flat (anybody remember Filip Zadina?). We didn't trade Bertuzzi and Hronek just to cross our fingers and roll the dice on a replacement. We traded them to get assets...assets that can be used to do all sorts of things to improve the club. You can't fall in love with your own picks and prospects and when quality players become available you need to try to land them (if you don't have comparable players in your system). It's not like trading our additional 1st and 2nd round picks is going to gut the club. We'd still have our own 1st and 2nd rounds the next two years...AND one of the deepest prospect pools in the league. We need upper end talent. Guys like Debrincat and Dubois are already there and the likelihood that a mid round pick becomes as good as either of them is small. If you can get them, do it.

I also REALLY like Barbashev and think SY needs to take a LONG look at the guy. If Vegas wins the Cup he'll likely be on the chopping block as they look to gain cap flexibility. He's really skilled himself, compliments other skill player well, is SUPER hard to play against, and plays responsibly all over the ice. I imagine after the playoffs he's had he's going to command a decent salary, but he's worth it. He'd be a target for me for sure.

Edited June 11, 2023 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,621]

Something else to pursue: Carolina needs offense, they don't have a ton of money, but they do have a really good right shot defenseman that's buried in the depth chart behind Brent Burns and Brett Pesce. Scott Morrow has eaten up the NCAA for two years in a row and is clearly ready for the NHL. He's 6'2, 200 lbs, and makes plays all over the ice. Perhaps something centered on Kubalik or Berggren? I'd start him with someone safe like Maatta as a rookie but he's clearly a top four dman in the making.

Walman-Seider

Edvinsson-Chiarot

Maatta-Morrow

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

So it sounds like we've soured on Lucas Raymond.  I feel like we were all seeing him as our top line RW a year ago, but some people dont feel the same way now.

[kipwinger 8,621]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

So it sounds like we've soured on Lucas Raymond.  I feel like we were all seeing him as our top line RW a year ago, but some people dont feel the same way now.

You’re allowed to have more than one good player per position lol

[town123 200]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Something else to pursue: Carolina needs offense, they don't have a ton of money, but they do have a really good right shot defenseman that's buried in the depth chart behind Brent Burns and Brett Pesce. Scott Morrow has eaten up the NCAA for two years in a row and is clearly ready for the NHL. He's 6'2, 200 lbs, and makes plays all over the ice. Perhaps something centered on Kubalik or Berggren? I'd start him with someone safe like Maatta as a rookie but he's clearly a top four dman in the making.

Walman-Seider

Edvinsson-Chiarot

Maatta-Morrow

Just a thought on your post about using our extra picks in trades. 

 

Scott Morrow looked great on film prior to the 2021 draft.   I thought he would have gone in the 22-28 range, yet fell to #40.   Food for thought regarding trading our extra picks...lol

 

It would take a tonne IMO to get Carolina to trade him to us.   If I'm the Canes I'm asking for #17 and Wallander/Johannsen, and be willing to throw a 3rd or 4th back to the Wings if pressed.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You’re allowed to have more than one good player per position lol

I feel like youve soured on him

[kipwinger 8,621]

41 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I feel like youve soured on him

Not at all, I just think that he’s going to have a longer development curve because he needs to do a lot of work on getting bigger and faster. 

59 minutes ago, town123 said:

Just a thought on your post about using our extra picks in trades. 

 

Scott Morrow looked great on film prior to the 2021 draft.   I thought he would have gone in the 22-28 range, yet fell to #40.   Food for thought regarding trading our extra picks...lol

 

It would take a tonne IMO to get Carolina to trade him to us.   If I'm the Canes I'm asking for #17 and Wallander/Johannsen, and be willing to throw a 3rd or 4th back to the Wings if pressed.

The Canes don’t need defense, they need scoring. They also don’t need futures because they’re trying to win now. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Not at all, I just think that he’s going to have a longer development curve because he needs to do a lot of work on getting bigger and faster. 

The Canes don’t need defense, they need scoring. They also don’t need futures because they’re trying to win now. 

I still like Raymond.  But he does need work.

[kipwinger 8,621]

9 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I still like Raymond.  But he does need work.

As a 19 yo with a 19yo body he scored almost 60 pts. He’s clearly a good player. He just can’t be the only scoring winger we have. 

[mackel 717]

19 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I’m all for the idea of putting lipstick on Zadina to pretty him up as part of the deal…

 

Zadina gets you a 4th round pick at best... his contract is the only thing of value associated with him.  

7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

So it sounds like we've soured on Lucas Raymond.  I feel like we were all seeing him as our top line RW a year ago, but some people dont feel the same way now.

Raymond = Tatar

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

46 minutes ago, mackel said:

Zadina gets you a 4th round pick at best... his contract is the only thing of value associated with him.  

Raymond = Tatar

Yah, we need more

[LeftWinger 5,036]

Tampa needs draft picks. We have draft picks. Tampa needs cap relief. We have cap relief. Hello Anthony Cirelli?

[Axl Foley 318]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:21 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

This guy doesnt play defense.  If we take him on, it will be a mistake.

Aren't you the guy complaining that this team cant score?

12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

What we can't afford to do is fetishize draft picks. Even top picks have a pretty good likelihood of falling flat (anybody remember Filip Zadina?). We didn't trade Bertuzzi and Hronek just to cross our fingers and roll the dice on a replacement. We traded them to get assets...assets that can be used to do all sorts of things to improve the club. You can't fall in love with your own picks and prospects and when quality players become available you need to try to land them (if you don't have comparable players in your system). It's not like trading our additional 1st and 2nd round picks is going to gut the club. We'd still have our own 1st and 2nd rounds the next two years...AND one of the deepest prospect pools in the league. We need upper end talent. Guys like Debrincat and Dubois are already there and the likelihood that a mid round pick becomes as good as either of them is small. If you can get them, do it.

I also REALLY like Barbashev and think SY needs to take a LONG look at the guy. If Vegas wins the Cup he'll likely be on the chopping block as they look to gain cap flexibility. He's really skilled himself, compliments other skill player well, is SUPER hard to play against, and plays responsibly all over the ice. I imagine after the playoffs he's had he's going to command a decent salary, but he's worth it. He'd be a target for me for sure.

I like Barbashev.  would be somewhat unnecessary if Kasper makes the roster.

[F.Michael 4,590]

4 hours ago, mackel said:

Zadina gets you a 4th round pick at best... his contract is the only thing of value associated with him.  

Raymond = Tatar

I was thinking more Nyquist, but yeah…Raymond is still young - hopefully he’ll continue to improve (I seem to recall that he has all the ability of becoming an offensive winger in the mold of a Marner).

Edited June 12, 2023 by F.Michael

[ely s 458]

10 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I was thinking more Nyquist, but yeah…Raymond is still young - hopefully he’ll continue to improve (I seem to recall that he has all the ability of becoming an offensive winger in the mold of a Marner).

Raymond is better than both. Razor and Mo both had a mediocre start pointwise in their sophomore seasons and ended up slightly below their rookie season totals but still showed overall improvement. I don´t see reason for concern that he´s not going to be the player we were hoping for.

[kipwinger 8,621]

11 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

 

I like Barbashev.  would be somewhat unnecessary if Kasper makes the roster.

Again, we are allowed to have more than one good player per position. The guy is a monster though, he’s playing the “power winger” role as good as anyone in the league right now. If we had him, Ras, and Copp/Kasper as power wingers on our top three lines it would go a long way toward the “harder to play against” goal SY is looking for.

[LeftWinger 5,036]

I'd be all good if they got a 40 goal scorer. I seem to remember when Brett Hull didn't play D either. Not that Debrincat is Hull 2.0, but we definitely need scoring!

1st, 2nd, Zadina (and/or prospect) considering its inner-divisional.

Make this trade, sign Taresenko, and maybe ROR. Cut ties with our UFA's and a couple RFA's.

Edited June 12, 2023 by LeftWinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

I'd be all good if they got a 40 goal scorer. I seem to remember when Brett Hull didn't play D either. Not that Debrincat is Hull 2.0, but we definitely need scoring!

1st, 2nd, Zadina (and/or prospect) considering its inner-divisional.

Make this trade, sign Taresenko, and maybe ROR. Cut ties with our UFA's and a couple RFA's.

Im more of a fan of rewarding the guys that play great both ways (Rasmussen) than handing out big money to guys that hurt us 5 on 5 (Debrincat, Raymond).  If Debrincat carried a cost of 4 mil per, I'd say it would be worth the risk to take on his MINUS 31 5on5 play.  But he's going to cost Larkin type money, so "No, Thanks."  Tarasenko and O'Reilly are better options for us.