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2 points
[Retired] Official Lockout Thread
haroldsnepsts and one other reacted to Buppy for a post in a topic
I was asking specifically about your objections to the players' proposals. I get the other stuff, even though I don't necessarily agree. Though it's curious that the "dragging their feet" criticism is reserved solely for the PA. The league claims they were ready to start in January, but didn't make any proposals; didn't to anyone's knowledge try to schedule any meetings, or even express any particular concern over the timetable. It took them two weeks from the time of the first meeting to actually make an offer, and another two weeks after that to deliver the full details. It took them two weeks again to make a new proposal after the PA finally made their first. Neither side made a proposal for a month after the start of the lockout. Seems if you want to criticize for this, you'd criticize both sides. Personally, I don't see the timeline as an issue at all. Nor pandering to the media (I don't really see any of that, to be honest), nor the lack or negotiating sessions. I see the cause-effect relationship the other way I guess. I believe the lack of negotiation is the result of the separation between the proposals, not the other way around. Likewise, I believe the time it has taken thus far is the result of the separation, rather than the continuing separation being due to the lack of time spent. The way I see it even if either side had waited until 11:59PM on 9/15, kicked down the other guy's door, spit in his eye, called his mother a *****, then laid a fair offer on the table...we should be watching hockey right now. I happen to think the PA offers have been fair. As to the actual proposals, of course the PA could give up a little more, but should they? They have already made plenty of concessions. Their first offer was a concession. Their second offer went further, and the third set went further still. You can say the same for the owners, but you have to remember that their "compromises" are only relative to the arbitrary figure from their first proposal. Much easier to give up something you never had (and likely never had any expectation to get anywhere close to) than give up something you do. Also, there has been speculation that the 50/50 deal the owners offered was what they wanted all along, and the other offers were just to give the illusion of compromise without really compromising. You could speculate the same regarding the PA, but that seems far less plausible. In all their proposals, the first three years are very similar, with almost all the movement coming in the final two years. You might interpret that as stubbornness, but it seems more likely that they just started off as low as they think should be in those years. One might wonder where the negotiations would be now if the owners hadn't started off with such a hostile first offer. Furthermore, the owners have yet to actually offer anything to the players, or even to maintain the status quo on anything. They are taking on every point. The only thing that sort of goes in the players' favor is the 2-year ELC, but that only affects a very small number of players, and has its own drawbacks as well. The players haven't asked to be given anything. They're offering to lower their share, and all they ask in return is to limit how much and what else is taken from them. Again, one might wonder where we'd be if the owners offered something other than imaginary concessions. As to firing Fehr, I think you're doing him a disservice. When he came in the PA was in disarray. Many players were unhappy with how much the players gave up in 2004-05. They had one director spying on their emails, replaced him with a guy who many felt was too conciliatory toward the league, seemingly more interested in avoiding a work stoppage than acting in the players' best interests. A couple interim directors that no one seemed to have any faith in. No due diligence in auditing league HRR accounting. You may think a weak union or weak leadership is a positive, and maybe it would make a work stoppage less likely, but the players would never be happy with it. It's really best for all sides to have strong leadership on both sides, so long as they are reasonable. Both Fehr and Bettman are strong. How reasonable they are is up for debate. But looking at their records, it's clear that Fehr has the much better resume. Bettman has now been party to three lockouts in three chances, resulting in two shortened seasons (presuming it's true we can no longer save a full season now) and one completely lost. His big victory last time really solved nothing, and we're locked out again. Fehr was party to a devastating strike, but his big victory in 94-95 helped broker a deal that left both sides healthy and happy enough that it hasn't been changed much in what has now been three straight CBA negotiations without a work stoppage. Baseball has flourished, and owners know they have to be accountable so spending on players is controlled without any need for a cap. Fehr helped accomplish that in an environment that was far more hostile, with a counterpart in Selig who was in part responsible for that hostility (Selig, as an owner, was one of those involved in the late-80's collusion). I think Fehr deserves a chance. Bettman has had his three strikes (or lockouts if you prefer), he should be out. TL:DR synopsis: I disagree. -
1 point"At every opportunity we have continued to state that we are ready to meet and willing to discuss all open issues, including the owners' last offer," Fehr wrote. "Nonetheless, to date, their group has declined to commit to a meeting unless it can dictate what the agenda is. We will update you further as soon as there is anything more to report. Regards, Don." What does that even mean? What other agenda is there aside from "Let's Make a Deal?" Sounds like more PR garbage, and lack of urgency.
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1 point
Ryan Suter pissed off
esteef gave a reaction for a post in a topic
Exactly. In regards to the multitude of 11th hour deals that were struck any agent worth his salt negotiated for signing bonuses and general overpayment to compensate for probable rollbacks. Shut up Suter. -
1 point
Red Wings Off Season: I Give Them an A
Z Winged Dangler reacted to number9 for a post in a topic
The Wild have 21% of their cap space tied up with Parise and Suter for a very long time. The Wings have 16% of their cap space tied up with their top forward and top D-man (Datysuk and Kronwall) The Wings have 18% of their cap space tied up with their top 2 overall players (Datsyuk and Zetterberg) I'd also refer to the OP's points per dollar section of his article. If the only goal of the off-season was to sign Suter and Parise, then yes we failed on both accounts. However, if one of our goals was also to "spend our money wisely" then we succeeded where the Wild failed. Datsyuk at 6.7 > Parise at 7.5 Zetterberg at 6 > Parise at 7.5 Kronwall at 4.75 > Suter at 7.5 We don't overpay for FA's when we can wait and develop our home grown talent and put them on reasonable contracts. Build through the draft. -
1 pointI think you are being optimistic and there is nothing wrong with that. The fact is that our defense is unproven and it's the first time in a long time that we're going into a season feeling shaky on the back end. You can play various tricks with numbers and stats to convince yourself it's going to be okay, but that's just a more calculated form of optimism. Our off-season acquisitions were not significant enough to make the entire fan base feel equally optimistic, but half the fun is seeing what happens and how we adapt. Though I will say whatever perks you want to cite about signing Samuelsson, Tootoo, and Brunner (bang for buck, etc.) won't mean much if we end up dropping games from our shaky defense. Filling that gap was our top priority that's where I would most heavily weigh the grade. I wouldn't necessarily give us an A, but here's to being proven wrong.
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1 point
[Retired] Official Lockout Thread
Nightfall reacted to Pskov Wings Fan for a post in a topic
You appear to be starting from the premise that players have to give to the owners. Why? Should not players be getting something in return for reduced share? Yet NHL wanted to restrict their contracting rights as well at the same time. I think Fehr at this point has support of the players. And only they can fire him. I actually have no idea what the procedure is for removing NHL commissioner. Might be interesting to find out. -
1 point
Red Wings Off Season: I Give Them an A
esteef reacted to GMRwings1983 for a post in a topic
No reason to think this team comes out of the first round, if there's a season. They've regressed the last several years and the offseason hardly improved the roster, to warrant giving them an A. -
1 point
Red Wings Off Season: I Give Them an A
Z Winged Dangler reacted to LeftWinger for a post in a topic
Lost too much depth? We lost Lidstrom (who is unreplacable) and Stuart... Replaced with Quincey, Smith and Colaiacovo... those three more than replace Staurt...again, you cannot replace Lidstrom, nort even with Suter... up front we lost Hudler, Holmstrom and will probably lose two of Miller/Eaves/Mursak/Emmerton...replaced with Tootoo, Sammy, Brunner a full time Nyquist and long term Helm and Abby...GRR has nice depth to fill injuries... We lost the revolving door of a back up to Howard and gained a legit #2 in the Monster. I give Holland an A for trying to land all the top talent in the UFA market, all in all, I give the off season a B+ considering that with the exception of Lidstrom, everyone that was signed was an upgrade to the folks we lost.... The only thing I would change is I would have shopped around Franzine, but who knows, maybe he did that too! Lidstrom = Unreplacable Quincey/Smith better than Stuart Colaiacovo better than Commie and Kindl still #7 Sammy better than Hudler Nyquist better than Holmstrom Tootoo better than any "tough" guy since Downey Helm and Abby here long term....and happy to be! Gustavsson better than Conklin/MacDonald combined. not to even mention the awesome draft Holland had! He went big and skilled and tough, everything we have been bitching at him to do for years! Get this CBA taken care of, sign Dekeyser after his senior year is up, trade Emmy/Mursak/Kindl for some picks and lets get this thing rolling! If the season goes kaput, then so be it, but this team is still deeper than it was last season...and better with the exception of Lids... -
1 point
[Retired] Official Lockout Thread
Hockeymom1960 reacted to Barrie for a post in a topic
Yeah I'm done spending money on the NHL too. The last of my favorite Red Wings, Holmstrom, has retired, so I can spend money and time elsewhere... Bettman has pissed me off so much, that I don't want to financially support the league anymore, and I'm not just saying that. Each year since the 05-06 lockout I've slowly lost interest, and this is the last straw. Despite the reports of record revenues, I think the league has turned into a big joke (bankrupt franchises, head shots, concussions, lack of proper suspensions, an 8th seed winning the Cup). I've almost been looking for a reason to not watch anymore, and this lockout is the reason... Add to that, as a fan of a big market team, I despise the Hard Cap and Floor, and I don't think what they've been talking about in a new deal will address what's actually wrong. Unless they have a Luxury Tax and proper Revenue Sharing there will be another lockout in 6 years. But, I continue to post my opinions because owners and players read forums, twitter, and facebook, so I want them to read what I think. -
1 pointnobody knows for sure if illitch is against/for the lockout. but his passion for his sports teams to win first and foremost is undeniable. it's what seperates himself from most other professional sports teams owners.
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1 point
Ryan Suter pissed off
LidsFan reacted to LeftWinger for a post in a topic
of course he regrets it...lockout or not, he wasn't signing with the Wild until his family convinced him to. He regrets it now and when he is about to retire 13 years from now with ZERO Stanley Cups he will really regret not signing with a real contender (not just Detroit, but a handfull of others that wanted him too...) -
1 point
Missing Wings This Fall (anyone heard anything on Franzen yet?)
Motown4013 reacted to Jocke for a post in a topic
No idea. He's been missing since the playoffs in 2011. -
1 pointhe should take his 10 million dollar signing bonus and go buy himself a private island somewhere to live on during this lockout so we don't have to listen to him complain
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1 point
Who was the better Wing/Player? Yzerman or Lidstrom
roboginger reacted to wings_fanatic for a post in a topic
To me Stevie was great. He was a great player, a great leader and even a better person. BUT, Nick Lidstrom is slightly a step up in that he was never phased, was always on his A game whether he was 25, 30 or 42... the guy simply always had it. I have went to several Red Wings games in my short 21 year life, and I can honestly say that anytime number 5 came on the ice I felt safe, I felt like there was nothing the team had to worry about because he simply did everything perfectly and so effortlessly. More then that, he was literally ALWAYS there. As you guys have said, we are spoiled to even be able to have this debate in the first place, but for me Lidstrom was the guy who I always idolized growing up and I met him 4 times and he was just such a nice guy. I cried when Stevie Y retired and I cried harder when Nick retired... it is like losing a family member. Lets just be thankful we have so many great memories of both of these greats.