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The NFL has made rule after rule after rule after rule surrounding hits and how they can be made, and I don't see much difference at all regarding head injuries. The NHL has begun to make rule after rule and oh look, still, head injuries are common. While I applaud the fact that there's been significant breakthroughs and aggressive research being placed on head injuries and the results of them, at some point, one has to simply recognize that this is in fact a physically violent sport that a player opt's in to, and there are risks that are associated with it. I don't see people going into boxing, rugby, UFC, or other sports telling them they need to start banning violent acts or ******* nitpicking every which way they can hit. The use of research surrounding injuries to the head and prevention should be used in a way of prevention that doesn't undermine how the sport of hockey has long been played. The reverting of pads, for example, I can certainly agree with. This impacts the player who's doing the hitting making it more painful for the player making the hit and logically would place more restraint on the person, as well as make the player making the hit absorb more of the damage. This still does not undermine the physical nature of the sport or flatten the role that physical play has in the sport. I'm watching in more recent years this sort of placing sports on some fantasy, cloud-nine pedestal where you can remove the physical/violent aspect of the sport and have it a) still be the sport played at the same level of competitive nature, and b) be entertaining. If you notice I'm not much of a fighter slappy at all, and I come into quite a heavy disagreement with those who assert that we need fighters on this team, on the other hand, the physical nature is part of what makes hockey, "hockey", and what makes football, "football". This contemporary fantasy attempt at idealizing every single hit that's placed where it's perfectly away from the head, or perfectly square, or perfectly above the knees, and where the player lands on a spot that's going to be less trauma to a certain body part is only going to result in a bogged down, ******* boring ass game to watch, and it's going to send mixed messages to both people who play and watch hockey. It's quite ridiculous. Leave it alone. Banning hits to the head is not going to make hockey a safe sport. Banning fighting is not going to make hockey a safe sport. Nothing is going to make hockey a safe sport. All of these rules, however, are going to make hockey not "hockey" but something ******* completely different.

Just slap this image on there and it'll be golden:

The problem is martyr, it's not Red Wings sponsored by the Devos family. It is Amway; a crooked company that has came under scrutiny by our government and has broken peoples lives based on false promises and ripping people off in cult like fashion. The Devos family does great things for the state of Michigan but the Amway company does not deserve to be our sponsor plain and simple.

there was nice full page tribute to wade belak in yesterdays tennessean written by preds player david legwand: <A href="http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/795012/belak-ad_1315641a.jpg">

Don't know if this is the same, might just be presenting the website, but it appears the Wings have had a presenting sponsor before in AT&T... Clarification on whether I've misinterpreted would be nice http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=587621 (Across the top where the Red Wings name and logo are). Think its automatically a terrible idea, for the sole reason that the (seemingly) majority of the fans are in disgust of it, not simply an "it's a shame hockey has to have sponsors" but more in a "they're a dispicable company for such a respectable organisation to be associated with". That in itself should be enough for the Wings organisation to know they've made a mistake they cannot turn back on now.

More photos Looks like Manny Legace is practicing with them as well.

... if I didn't weigh as much as Jan Mursak and Drew Miller combined.

When I read this, this is the first thing that came to mind. Great thread Steve. :thumbup: And Yeah, I was also surprised at Young Doc Holiday. Maybe we'll have to change his name to Pre-Med Holiday instead.

I for one wasn't making fun of fat people! I was merely making fun of Bumluvin (as I call him; formally known as Byfuglien). You did however say "You people" ? that also refers to myself which was already stated earlier as not what I was doing...Equality eh?

This is way off-topic, but how do you reach that conclusion from the recent deaths? Boogaard OD'd, while Rypien and Belak had documented mental illnesses before their suicides. There is no evidence that Rypien and Belak developed these illnesses from their role in hockey. Also, it seems Boogaard became addicted to painkillers after his recent injury, and the same painkillers are given to enforcers and playmakers. I haven't heard any retired enforcers coming out against the role, even as a lawsuit was filled by former NFL players against the NFL for mishandling concussions. Have you played North American hockey at a competitive level? If you have played, I have a question for you- would you rather be ran from behind or fight someone? Hockey is a physical and dangerous sport, and fighting is sometimes the safest way for two players to meet physically.

medicinal marijuana could help a lot of these guys out, wayyyyy better for you that pain killers, you cant overdose, and it can help with depression, along with dealing with pain. not trying to start a political argument. Im just talking from the perspective of someone who knows people that has gone through these types of things.

BERTUZZI has won the final bobblehead, with over 500000 votes.

My last name was staal

"Real Wings fans voted for the obvious choice in the poll, Kronwall." This is stupid. Bert is one of my favorite players but aside from that, who wouldn't love to see a toothless bobblehead?

Not to offend anyone but some of us on here should remember it's a "bobblehead contest" not a "favorite Red Wing competition". I feel happy for Bert and what he has done for the Wings, I'm not saying he's more important to the organization than Kronwall but IMO he deserves a bobblehead.

Honestly, I don't think many people would have been nearly upset if it had been Belle tire, or GM, or any other Detroit based business that brings pride. I think what bugs people is they went with a shady pyramid scheme company. Plus, the article posted earlier made a great point. Promoting a pyramid scheme into a severely economically depressed area, it's like throwing a wolf in with some sheep.

Honestly...why would anyone be offended by something that is posted by another anonymous person on an internet forum? Anyone who is needs to get a life, asap. Say what you gotta say, don't worry about prefacing it with things like "not to offend". Some people live such sad pathetic lives that they just look for things to be "offended" by. I say, f*** em...

his carreer was long over. he was still getiing money that is way more important than the career

THIS is exactly the point. People aren't upset about corporate sponsorship, as that was inevitable. People are upset because its Amway. Amway is a shady ******* pyramid scheme. They are scumbags that prey on the vulnerable. And to the guy who keeps saying the Amway helped out their local community. So what? I know its an extreme example, but so did Pablo Escobar. He was considered a saint in his community and helped everyone out, built up neighborhoods, built schools, etc. But in the bigger scheme of things, he was a total monster. Much like Amway.

That I could tolerate more than those idiots trying to pull a Ponzi scheme. And I don't care if it doesn't pay the bills by calling it Howe Arena. At least we could hold our heads high doing so. Anything else, and I'd want to hide in shame.

A good look at the founder of our proud new sponsor and just a little snap shot of how he has given back to our community *Note, these numbers are only until 2005! Also, these are simple numbers. There is no media bias interjected in the report unlike the last post Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation 126 Ottawa Avenue N.W., Suite 500 Grand Rapids, MI 49503 Media Transparency Profile For years: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Total contributed: $ 222,782,656 Name Total Grand Action Foundation 18,500,000 Gospel Communications International 12,754,725 Blodgett Butterworth Health Care Foundation 11,121,050 National Constitution Center 10,099,000 Grand Valley University Foundation 9,435,000 Grand Rapids Christian School Association 9,408,147 Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church 8,900,000 Calvin College 8,614,300 Hope College 7,550,000 Grand Rapids Symphony 6,991,152 Holland Home 6,553,000 Prison Fellowship Ministries 6,025,000 Ada Christian School 5,155,000 Rehoboth Christian School 3,636,000 Bethany Christian Services 3,450,000 Focus on the Family 3,250,000 University of Central Florida Foundation 3,000,000 Lee University 3,000,000 University of Central Florida 2,500,000 Spanish River Church 2,500,000 Grand Rapids Art Museum 2,442,000 Potter's House 2,250,000 Evangelism Explosion International 2,245,000 DeVos Children's Hospital Foundation 2,057,000 Luis Palau Evangelistic Association 2,000,000 Helen DeVos Children's Hospital Foundation 1,708,000 Heritage Foundation, The 1,700,000 Northwood University 1,691,500 Calvin Theological Seminary 1,650,000 Lake Worth Christian School 1,625,450 Partners for Christian Development 1,525,462 Christian Reformed World Relief Committee 1,426,000 Christian Reformed Church N.A. 1,401,000 Gospel Films 1,250,000 Direct Selling Education Foundation 1,250,000 Haggai Institute 1,240,000 YMCA of Boca Raton 1,152,000 Intercollegiate Studies Institute, Inc. 1,125,000 United Network for Organ Sharing 1,125,000 Boy Scouts of America - Gerald R. Ford Council 1,115,000 LaGrave Avenue Christian Reformed Church 1,081,853 Crystal Cathedral Ministries 1,080,000 United Way - Heart of Florida 1,070,000 Van Andel Institute 1,050,000 Mount Vernon Estate and Gardens 1,000,000 American Red Cross of Central Florida 1,000,000 Russian American Christian University 1,000,000 Palm Beach Atlantic University 1,000,000 Children's Scholarship Fund 930,000 Christ Memorial Reformed Church 925,000 Northern Michigan University 920,000 Partners Worldwide 825,000 Western Theological Seminary 810,000 Inner City Christian Federation 800,000 United Way - Heart of West Michigan 800,000 Frederik Meijer Gardens 780,700 Orlando Magic Youth Foundation 775,038 Prelude Worldwide Ministries 750,000 Lee College 750,000 CrossRoads Prison Ministries 730,000 Pine Rest Foundation 659,650 Media Research Center, Inc. 600,000 University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 591,000 Mel Trotter Ministries 560,000 Family of Faith Church 555,000 Health Intervention Services 550,000 Caring House Project Foundation 500,000 Keystone Community Church 500,000 Mount Vernon Ladies Association of the Union 500,000 Mississippi Hurricane Recovery Fund 500,000 Friends of the Americas 480,000 Davenport University 475,000 American Symphony Orchestra League 475,000 Florida Sunshine Pops, Inc. 450,000 Christian Counseling Center 437,500 Ligonier Ministries 425,000 International Society for Ocean Monitoring and Research 410,000 Hope Network 404,720 Michigan Family Forum 385,000 Hope Network Foundation 377,174 Right to Life of Michigan Educational Fund 375,000 Primary Focus 350,000 Fort Lauderdale Christian School 350,000 Raymond F. Kravis Center for the Performing Arts, Inc. 334,975 American Heart Association - Michigan Affiliate, Inc. 325,000 Pregnancy Resource Center 325,000 Baxter Community Center 320,000 Junior Achievement of the Michigan Great Lakes, Inc. 310,500 Florida Philharmonic Orchestra 305,000 Salvation Army, Palm Beach County 300,000 International Aid 300,000 Hope Pregnancy Centers of Broward 300,000 West Michigan Christian Foundation 298,512 National Organization on Disability 275,000 Worldwide Christian Schools 270,000 Kent County Parks Foundation 269,700 YMCA of South Palm Beach County 255,000 Millennium Park Project 250,000 Ukrainian Center for Christian Cooperation 250,000 Rotary Club of Grand Rapids 250,000 Boy Scouts of America - Gulf Stream Council, Inc. 250,000 Public Museum Foundation of Grand Rapids 237,500 Bethesda Hospital Foundation 230,000 Christian Reformed World Missions 230,000 Madison Square Christian Reformed Church 215,300 Indian Trails Camp 215,000 Insight for Living 210,000 St. Petersburg Theological Seminary Foundation 200,000 St. Cecilia Music Society 195,000 Education Freedom Fund 182,500 Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies 180,000 VineBranch, Inc. 178,500 Gift of Life Foundation 175,000 Youth for Christ - Grand Rapids Area 175,000 Vantage Point Forum, Inc. 172,500 American Cancer Society - Great Lakes Division 170,000 Christian Learning Center 170,000 Clebe McClary Evangelistic Association 170,000 Campus Crusade for Christ 163,500 Bible League 162,634 Music Mission Kiev, Inc. 161,000 Wedgwood Christian Youth & Family Services 155,000 Russell Kirk Center for Cultural Renewal, The 150,000 Council for National Policy 150,000 Lumiere Medical Ministries, Inc. 150,000 House of Hope 150,000 Christian Reformed Home Missions 150,000 Saint Mary's Mercy Medical Center 150,000 West Michigan Center for Arts & Technology 150,000 Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame 150,000 Teach Michigan Education Fund 149,990 Grand Rapids Youth Commonwealth, Inc. 145,000 City Vision, Inc. 145,000 Alliance Defense Fund, Inc. 130,000 Grand Valley State University 129,000 Urban Youth Workers Institute 125,000 American Heart Association - Florida Affiliate, Inc. 120,000 Horatio Alger Association 120,000 Broadway Theatre Guild 120,000 Zuni Christian Mission School 120,000 Boys and Girls Club of Greater Holland 118,500 Grandville Avenue Arts and Humanities, Inc. 115,000 U.S. ENGLISH Foundation 113,000 Upledger Foundation 112,600 Young Life Greater Grand Rapids 110,000 Salvation Army 110,000 U.S. Sailing Foundation 110,000 Davenport University Foundation 105,000 Interlochen Center for the Arts 104,500 Affordable Medicines for Africa 102,000 Grand Rapids Baptist Schools 101,000 Ferguson Heartside Community Resource Center 100,000 Acton Institute For The Study of Religion and Liberty 100,000 Young Life - National Office 100,000 Michigan Military Air Land and Sea Museum 100,000 Crossroads Christian Communications 100,000 Life Net 21 100,000 Connect Michigan Alliance 100,000 Florida School Choice Fund, Inc. 100,000 Fuller Theological Seminary 100,000 Partnership for Learning 100,000 Geneva Camp & Retreat Center 100,000 Fringe Communications 100,000 Flannel 100,000 Hope Multinational Christian Fellowship 100,000 Grand Rapids Student Advancement Foundation 90,000 Mackinac Center for Public Policy 90,000 Opera Grand Rapids 81,000 YMCA Grand Rapids Metropolitan 80,000 Operation Smile 80,000 North American Choral Company 80,000 West Michigan Strategic Alliance 77,000 Grand Rapids Griffins Youth Foundation 75,000 Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services 75,000 Grand Rapids Ballet 75,000 Transplants Recipients International Organization 75,000 Leadership Institute 75,000 Faith, Inc. 70,000 Young Dads, Inc. 70,000 Foundation for Traditional Values 65,000 American Red Cross - Kent County Chapter 65,000 Rutherford Institute 65,000 International Society of Palm Beach, Inc. 65,000 Council of Michigan Foundations 60,000 Equipping Ministries International, Inc. 60,000 National Right to Read Foundation 60,000 CLC Network (Christian Learning Center) 60,000 American Red Cross - Palm Beach County Chapter 60,000 Visions Teen Parent Foundation, Inc. 60,000 Join Our Youth, Inc. 60,000 Lighthouse Family Center 60,000 Words of HOPE 55,000 Worldwide Lab Improvement, Inc. 55,000 Traditional Values Coalition 54,276 Hospice of Michigan in Grand Rapids 53,000 In The Image 52,500 Pathfinder Resources 52,500 People for People, Inc. 51,000 Alliance for Children Everywhere 50,000 American Red Cross 50,000 Of the People Foundation 50,000 Holland Rescue Mission 50,000 Salvation Army-Grand Rapids 50,000 National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund 50,000 His Caring Place 50,000 Community Defense Counsel 50,000 Hispanic Center of Western Michigan 50,000 Nueva Esperanza, Inc. 50,000 En-Gedi Resource Center, Inc. 50,000 Children First America (Bentonville, AR) 50,000 Ave Maria School of Law 50,000 First Presbyterian Church 50,000 Alliance for School Choice, Inc. 50,000 Chaplain Services, Inc. 47,500 Joy of Music 46,000 Grand Rapids Medical Education and Research Center for Health Professions 45,000 Make A Wish Foundation, Grand Rapids 45,000 American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research 40,000 Christian Schools International 40,000 Boys & Girls Club of Holland 40,000 Kids Hope USA 40,000 Aquinas College 40,000 Choices for Children 37,900 American Red Cross - West Central Michigan 35,000 Back to God Hour 35,000 High Frontier 35,000 John Stott Ministries 34,000 Kent County Literacy Council 32,500 Meet Grand Rapids 31,000 Foundation for the Advancement of Cardiac Therapies 30,000 United Way - Palm Beach County 30,000 Grand Rapids Children's Museum 30,000 Guideposts Publications 30,000 United Way - West Palm Beach 30,000 Building Block Inc. 30,000 New Hope Church 30,000 Zuni Christian Reformed Church 30,000 Noorthoek Academy 28,650 American Cancer Society - Palm Beach 27,500 Plan International USA 26,328 Visiting Nurse Association of West Michigan 25,200 Organ Transplant Fund, Inc. 25,000 Michigan's West Coast 25,000 Plymouth Rock Foundation 25,000 James Madison Foundation, The 25,000 Southeastern Legal Foundation, Inc. 25,000 School to Career Progressions 25,000 First Presbyterian Church (Harbor Springs, MI) 25,000 Second Harvest Gleaners Food Bank 25,000 Stephen's Children Foundation 25,000 Free Congress Research and Education Foundation, Inc. 25,000 Orlando Regional Healthcare Foundation 25,000 National Foundation for Transplants, Inc. 25,000 Cape Eleuthera Foundation 25,000 Catholic Social Services 25,000 Evergreen Commons 20,000 National Kidney Foundation of Michigan 20,000 Orlando Museum of Art, Inc. 20,000 Toys for Tots 20,000 International Urban Associates 20,000 Youth for Christ of Palm Beach County 20,000 Leukemia and Lymphoma Society 20,000 University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center 20,000 Home Repair Services of Kent County 20,000 Christian Foundation Center of America 20,000 Shepherds of Independence 20,000 Roosevelt Park Ministries 19,000 Children's Educational Opportunity (CEO) Foundation America 15,000 National Kidney Foundation of Florida, Inc. 15,000 Chamber Choir of Grand Rapids 15,000 Grand Rapids Area Medical Education & Research Center for Health Professions 15,000 Transplantation Society of Michigan 15,000 Restorers, Inc. 15,000 Homecor 14,000 First United Methodist Church (Grand Rapids, MI) 13,600 Christ's Community Christian Church 12,500 Arthritis Foundation, West Michigan Region 12,000 WXEL - Barry Telecommunications, Inc. 11,000 Coalition for the Homeless of Central Florida 10,000 Gerald R. Ford Foundation 10,000 Association for Christian Foundations 10,000 Hospital Chaplaincy Service 10,000 Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, Inc. 10,000 Florida Hospital Foundation 10,000 National Kidney Foundation 10,000 Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, Inc. 10,000 Guiding Light Mission, Inc. 10,000 Florida House Washington DC, Inc. 10,000 Girl Scouts of Michigan Trails 10,000 J.C. & Frankie Watts Foundation, The 10,000 Holland Christian Schools 10,000 Alzheimer's Community Care 10,000 Michigan Community Blood Centers 10,000 University of Michigan Medical Center 10,000 Conservation International Foundation 10,000 Faith Baptist Bible College and Theological Seminary 10,000 Greater Houston Community Foundation 10,000 Billy Graham Evangelistic Association 10,000 Luke Society 8,000 Community Foundation of the Holland/Zeeland Area 7,500 Public Museum of Grand Rapids 7,500 Aspen Music Festival and School 7,500 Michigan Self Help for Hard of Hearing People 7,500 Patrons of the Arts in the Vatican Museums 7,000 Grand Rapids American Guild of Organists 7,000 Center for New Black Leadership 6,000 Cystic Fibrosis Foundation Headquarters 6,000 Degage Ministries 5,500 Northern Michigan Hospital Foundation 5,500 Capital Research Center 5,000 Corporation for Maintaining Editorial Diversity in America 5,000 Holland Christian Education Society 5,000 Ada Historical Society 5,000 Washington Campus, The 5,000 Grand Rapids Community Foundation 5,000 Reformed Bible College 5,000 Matthew 28 18-20 Charitable Trust 5,000 Lamont Christian School 5,000 FreedomWorks Foundation 5,000 Christian Performing Artists' Fellowship 5,000 Reformed Ecumenical Council 5,000 World Affairs Council of Western Michigan 5,000 Jewish National Fund 5,000 Family Life Center 5,000 Juvenile Diabetes Foundation International of Palm Beach 5,000 Latino Leadership Foundation 5,000 American Cancer Society - Great Lakes Division, Inc. 5,000 Martin Luther King Jr National Memorial Project 5,000 Alamo Resource Conservation and Development Area, Inc. 5,000 Bibles for Mexico 5,000 Blanton-Peale Institute 5,000 Cystic Fibrosis Foundation-Orlando Regional Office 5,000 Dwelling Place, The 5,000 Alzheimer's Association 5,000 Youth Orchestra of Palm Beach County, Inc. 5,000 Cornerstone Foundation 5,000 Place of Refuge 4,320 Rotary Foundation of Rotary International 4,000 Sons of Italy Foundation 3,500 Children's Home Society of Florida 2,500 Palm Beach Community College 2,500 Judicial Watch 2,500 Crooked Tree Arts Council, Inc. 2,000 Silent Observer 1,750 Grand Rapids Central High School 1,500 Close Up Foundation 1,300 Barnabas Ministries, Inc. 1,000 American Water Ski Association 1,000 Camp Roger 1,000 Lowell Area School 1,000 Western Michigan Teen Challenge 1,000 Little Traverse Conservancy 1,000 Dave Dravecky's Outreach of Hope 1,000 Tobacco Free Partners 1,000 Best Friends Foundation 1,000 Snowmass-Wildcat Firefighters Association 1,000 Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, Illinois Chapter 1,000 Enduring Freedom KIA Fund 1,000 Dream for Africa 1,000 Oviedo High School Band Booster Association, Inc. 1,000 Points of Light 1,000 Glen Lake Community Reformed Church 1,000 Westminster Academy 1,000 United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation 1,000 Dwelling Place of Grand Rapids 1,000 Kiwanis Foundation of Harbor Springs 1,000 Young America's Foundation-Santa Barbara 1,000 Spectrum Health 500 Forest Hills Central High School 500 Arizona Memorial Museum Association 500 Tri-Unity Christian School 500 Christ Child Society of Northern Michigan 500 Ocean Reef Chapel Foundation, Inc. 500 Mountain Christian Church 500 Ataxia Telanglectasia Children's Project, Inc. 500 Northwest Michigan Human Services Agency, Inc. 400 Women's Resource Center 200 Pacific Legal Foundation 100 Printer friendly http://old.mediatransparency.org/recipientsoffunder.php?funderID=17 Those HEATHENS!!! Burn them at the stake!! No seriously - they do a lot. Good for them... Good for them.

Right Right - I see what you did there. Pablo Escobar murdered innocent people and smuggled narcotics that leveled communities. Dick Devos started a business that sells cleaning products, nutritional products and cosmetics. I bet....I bet you cry fowl when people used propoganda to compare Obama to Hitler for his socialistic opinions. But hey - this is all just for fun, right? I don't want to be condescending because of your misunderstanding of what a ponzi scheme is. That is because I'm sure that 90% of the people on this forum don't know what a ponzi scheme is and how it compares to a pyramid scheme. A ponzi scheme is, in recent current events, what Bernie Madoff went to jail for. To put it simply it is this: You convince a bunch of people to give you $50 billion dollars to invest. You only give millions back shown as investment profits to those people - you keep the rest. Your initial investors believe that their original principal of $50 billion is still safe and secure but really, you've spent them on fancy things like big boats, houses and silk underwear. You survive because your success keeps bringing in new investors with more and more money because even if an investor wants to take out all of their money out, you can survive the blow because others pay even more into the system. So you see - it is dead wrong to even accuse Amway of being a ponzi scheme because they are completely unrelated. I am trying to be nice to you, but please understand that when people do say the things you have said it does upset me because it clearly means that you have no basic understanding of the accusations you have made. You have only followed the lead of another ignorant person who blathers wreckless information into the dark. I only debate on things that I know I know. All too often people make up their minds on a couple of headlines they have seen in passing with no real interest to look into unbiased reporting. It almost isn't their fault, though, as most people don't even know where to access unbiased reporting! But I digress. Anyway, if you're also wondering how Amway exists as an accused pyramid scheme (I'm assuming that you already know that a pyramid scheme is illegal) it is because, by definition, they are also not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme would require that people are paid to recruit others soley. (Amway people do recruit hard as hell which is where people draw comparisons to cult like groups) However, you do actually have to SELL PRODUCTS in order to ever make money from Amway. Also, Amway buys back excess inventory from its personal distributors. So ya, I'm sure some people probably think that I must be a part of Amway or something by now. I will tell you this: I HAVE experienced about 3 or 4 meetings where I was trying to be recruited. I did not enjoy the experience and I have stayed far away ever since. However, I simply cannot deny the fact that, though this particular experience was not to my liking, it is NOT MY PLACE to judge others on the decisions that have apparently worked out for them. The company is obviously successful as I believe they are somewhere in the top 30 largest privately owned businesses according to Forbes. Have people invested in the business and came out as losers? With any venture that comes with risk, I bet there have been! But thats why America is America - it is a personal choice for someone to venture into this opportunity. And lest not forget, Amway does provide an opportunity. There will always be winners and losers. The Winners from Amway were probably losers somewhere else and they had to learn a little more about life before they reached success. The losers - my guess is they probably learned something along the way and will eventually find something that works for them. Either way, both groups of people will probably turn out just fine. Have a fabulous day and a swell tomorrow!