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redwingfan19

Cherry rips Holland

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Ok, just listened to it. I don't like Cherry too much, especially after he criticized Datsyuk for a perfectly clean hit a couple of seasons ago, but I have to agree with him 100 percent on this issue, mainly because I have been saying the exact same thing, ever since Holland hired his lap dog Mike Babcock. Trade for a guy like Dave Clarkson or Chris Neil, or draft one these good young tough players that also have the ability to score that every other GM is drafting, but do something to make playing against Detroit a little harder, and let other teams know that we have a guy who "can do that too". Steve Yzerman understood it, Scotty Bowman understood it, and Mike Babcock, I think, also understands it, but he's just too much of a wimp to say anything to Holland about it. Yes, he did manage to get Brad May on the roster a few seasons ago, and May did his job, but he was just too old, and besides, he didn't even play in the game against Philli??? That was head-scratching.

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Ok, just listened to it. I don't like Cherry too much, especially after he criticized Datsyuk for a perfectly clean hit a couple of seasons ago, but I have to agree with him 100 percent on this issue, mainly because I have been saying the exact same thing, ever since Holland hired his lap dog Mike Babcock. Trade for a guy like Dave Clarkson or Chris Neil, or draft one these good young tough players that also have the ability to score that every other GM is drafting, but do something to make playing against Detroit a little harder, and let other teams know that we have a guy who "can do that too". Steve Yzerman understood it, Scotty Bowman understood it, and Mike Babcock, I think, also understands it, but he's just too much of a wimp to say anything to Holland about it. Yes, he did manage to get Brad May on the roster a few seasons ago, and May did his job, but he was just too old, and besides, he didn't even play in the game against Philli??? That was head-scratching.

This!

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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Then tell me why Downey was dressed in warm-up (game 3) against Dallas?

Why Commodore is playing more (see Howard's comments)

Would we have won if he didnt dress ? Can you give an example of when Aaron Downey was the game changer with a timely fight ?

dobbles likes this

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Was reading a Puck Daddy article today and it got me thinking, it is about drafting the tough players that can play nowadays. Holland and Andersson should be given all the credit in the world for finding the guys they've found in later rounds, but lately they haven't been getting the kinda guys we need to put us over the top (ie the big scoring winger and complimentary bottom line/pairing guys who are big and tough)

From the 2006 draft on, and before people jump on me these are just guys are had a shot at and missed:

2006

Milan Lucic

Jamie McBain

Ryan White

Brad Marchand (yuck)

Cal Clutterbuck

Theo Peckham

2007

Matt Frattin

Keith Aulie

Jamie Benn

2008

Travis Hamonic

Marco Scandella

Zach Smith

Dale Weise

Zach Rinaldo

Jason Demers (yuck)

2009

Ryan O'Reilly

Kyle Clifford

Marcus Foligno

2010

Quinton Howden

Devante Smith-Pelley

We've drafted some good players, and by going through the drafts we have had quite a few steals. But the fact remains all of the players I listed we had shots at, hindsight is 20/20 and I think Sheahan could develop into a pretty good bottom liner for us but it is too bad we couldn't land just one of these guys.

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If Colton Orr got put on reentry waivers, and could be picked up for 500,000 a year that would be pretty awesome. Hes a tougher fighter and probably a bit better hockey player than Downey was back in 08. Just throw him in for those games against tougher guys, him an Commie as the 1,2 punch would be ok.

That being said a Colton Orr isnt needed. Some guys that can play a regular fourth line shift and scrap a bit would be good. Someone like Moen or Crombeen. Its not that hard to find a scrappy fourth liner. I would not be against Orr however at 500,000 a year either.

Smith on the roster full time next season will be a BIG help, Callahan and Sheahan will be coming up in the next 3 years or so as well. Cayer might even become a decent enforcer who can skate a regular shift as well.

Edited by newfy
Frozen-Man likes this

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Would we have won if he didnt dress ? Can you give an example of when Aaron Downey was the game changer with a timely fight ?

You just don't get it, do you? Please tell me you're not our next GM.

But to give you one example: If my memory serves me well, I remember a game against the Ducks, where they were beating us up both physically and on the scoreboard. Downey went out and challenged Parros, won the fight, and Detroit seemed to respond. I still think they lost, but they came back and made a game out of it. They looked dead before the fight.

Detroit # 1 Fan, Dominator2005 and Hockeymom1960 like this

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Soooo, that isnt an example. Lidstrom was run and injured by someone even though Aaron Downey was dressed.

I guess I should further go into my opinion on the whole matter. It pisses me off more than anything when a player on the other team is taking runs at our players. Doane, Backes or whoever. I DO think and depseratley want someone on the team that will stand up to these guys but I DONT want a guy who plays 2 shifts every 10 or so games. I think Holland and company have this same opinion. They want someone who can contribute and stand up to the guys taking runs at us. That is just a hard player to find.

My issue with Cherry's comment was simply using Aaron Downey as an example. If he would have said McCarty, Shanahan or Kocur I would have agreed. Those guys played every game and could contribute. I think we still would have won the cup without Downey, I don't think we win without the other guys I mentioned.

I do get irritated that we dont have that mean SOB on the team who does more policing out there. I wish we had a Pronger type but a lot less douchey.

That doesn't mean there has to be a correlation.

Exactly...name all of the teams in the league that have no enforcer at all. There can't be many of them. So there is a high probability that the team that wins the Stanley Cup has one.

You just don't get it, do you? Please tell me you're not our next GM.

But to give you one example: If my memory serves me well, I remember a game against the Ducks, where they were beating us up both physically and on the scoreboard. Downey went out and challenged Parros, won the fight, and Detroit seemed to respond. I still think they lost, but they came back and made a game out of it. They looked dead before the fight.

There is nothing I dont get. See my post above but again your example shows no evidence that what Downey did change the game. Also, the best example for you to use to prove some sort of point is the March 26th game when all hell broke loose. I believe that whole mele without a doubt brought the team together. I think that game was huge.

Edited by wingfan13

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Soooo, that isnt an example. Lidstrom was run and injured by someone even though Aaron Downey was dressed.

I guess I should further go into my opinion on the whole matter. It pisses me off more than anything when a player on the other team is taking runs at our players. Doane, Backes or whoever. I DO think and depseratley want someone on the team that will stand up to these guys but I DONT want a guy who plays 2 shifts every 10 or so games. I think Holland and company have this same opinion. They want someone who can contribute and stand up to the guys taking runs at us. That is just a hard player to find.

My issue with Cherry's comment was simply using Aaron Downey as an example. If he would have said McCarty, Shanahan or Kocur I would have agreed. Those guys played every game and could contribute. I think we still would have won the cup without Downey, I don't think we win without the other guys I mentioned.

To the first point, yes he was. But instead of phoning it in and doing nothing like todays team would, Downey went after Lappy and sparked the team to a victory. That is team toughness, a guy sparking the team to keep playing hard and WIN for the guy who was injured through a dirty (ish) hit. Especially when it's our captain.

To your second point, fair enough. I feel the same way, I'd rather have the Lucic type then the Downey type especially for the Wings. If we could have both, well happy days, but I think we both know that won't happen for quite a while.

Thirdly, I think Downey had an impact on the mentality of the 2008 team, but definitely it's a stretch to say he was the reason we won. And definitely McCarty, Shanny and Kocur had more impact during those runs. But Don isn't totally out to lunch (and I'm not saying your saying that because clearly I think we're on the same page here) I think we do need some type of physical presence up front if we wanna make a run again this year.

LidsFan likes this

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I DO think and depseratley want someone on the team that will stand up to these guys but I DONT want a guy who plays 2 shifts every 10 or so games. I think Holland and company have this same opinion. They want someone who can contribute and stand up to the guys taking runs at us. That is just a hard player to find.

Not really....

Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games

Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games

David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games

Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games

Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games

Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games

Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games

Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games

Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games

Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games

Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games

Jamal Mayers-9 points in 41 games

Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, Jordin Tootoo, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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What has Cherry won exactly?

Jack Adams, which is far and away more than any of us can boast from our keyboards...

Not to mention playing professional hockey and would have made it much further if not for blowing out his shoulder

Not really....

Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games

Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games

David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games

Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games

Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games

Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games

Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games

Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games

Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games

Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games

Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games

Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

This. I hate when people say its hard to find a player that can scrap a bit and stick up for his team while playing the game. Its hard to find a guy that can beat up Steve Mcyntire and score 30 goals to boot yes, but thats different then a guy like Prust, Smith, CLarkson (who is solid in the Holmstrom role) who will fight most guys in the league when they have to while contributing the same amount to the team as an Emmerton, Miller or Eaves really

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Realistically, I believe that if Detroit were to have a 30+ point fighter on the roster there would be pitchforks and torches to get him to stop fighting and live up to their "true" potential.

acidroach420 and Hockeymom1960 like this

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Jack Adams, which is far and away more than any of us can boast from our keyboards...

Not to mention playing professional hockey and would have made it much further if not for blowing out his shoulder

This. I hate when people say its hard to find a player that can scrap a bit and stick up for his team while playing the game. Its hard to find a guy that can beat up Steve Mcyntire and score 30 goals to boot yes, but thats different then a guy like Prust, Smith, CLarkson (who is solid in the Holmstrom role) who will fight most guys in the league when they have to while contributing the same amount to the team as an Emmerton, Miller or Eaves really

Get used to seeing lists like that from me, as we get closer to the offseason and people keep claiming nobody is available who fits the bill. I think Cherry is right when it comes to Detroit.

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People are so funny. Toughness is relative, and the Wings have been one of the softest teams in the league for all of our recent Cups. The way some people talk about the Cup years now, you'd think we led the league in majors, as opposed to being last or close like we really were. I'm sure if we win the Cup this year, in a few years we'll see folks reminiscing about the toughness of Bert, E, and Abby.

So we haven't won a Cup without an enforcer. How many times have we (or any other team) actually had a season without one?

How about this. In 98, we beat Washington in the Finals. Washington was last in the league in majors, we were next to last. In 02, we beat Carolina. We were last, Carolina was next to last. In 08 we were last, Pittsburgh was 10th. (I don't have the stats for 97, but I'm pretty sure we were near the bottom.)

There is no correlation at all between toughness or fighting and playoff success. Some tough teams win, some soft teams win.

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It's too bad that this is what enforcer debates have been reduced to: ripping the posters who oppose your viewpoints instead of actually entering reasonable discourse. On both sides.

Don't want to get involved with this debate, but f*** me you're one to talk! All you ever seem to do these days is belittle other members who have different opinions to you.

I agree with Cherry, but he's is a rambling idiot and no-one will ever listen to him because he's usually wrong.

ManLuv4Clears likes this

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Not really....

Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games

Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games

David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games

Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games

Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games

Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games

Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games

Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games

Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games

Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games

Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games

Jamal Mayers-9 points in 41 games

Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, Jordin Tootoo, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

None of which Holland will even call...

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People are so funny. Toughness is relative, and the Wings have been one of the softest teams in the league for all of our recent Cups. The way some people talk about the Cup years now, you'd think we led the league in majors, as opposed to being last or close like we really were. I'm sure if we win the Cup this year, in a few years we'll see folks reminiscing about the toughness of Bert, E, and Abby.

So we haven't won a Cup without an enforcer. How many times have we (or any other team) actually had a season without one?

How about this. In 98, we beat Washington in the Finals. Washington was last in the league in majors, we were next to last. In 02, we beat Carolina. We were last, Carolina was next to last. In 08 we were last, Pittsburgh was 10th. (I don't have the stats for 97, but I'm pretty sure we were near the bottom.)

There is no correlation at all between toughness or fighting and playoff success. Some tough teams win, some soft teams win.

Sigh....I'll bite.

There isn't anybody saying fights=championships. In 2002, we had guys like McCarty, Maltby, and Draper who were all physical and defensively responsible, while chipping in offensively. Shanahan was gritty and offensively skilled as well. All were physical, as in getting in on the forecheck and wearing down the defense. Finishing all of their checks. These guys won puck battles down low. They all drove the net. At the same time, Yzerman, Fedorov, and the finesse guys played on a consistent basis. There was a healthy balance of finesse and grit.

In 2008, Drake, Maltby, and even Helm and McCarty were the ones winning puck battles down low. Driving to the net. Getting in on the forecheck and wearing down the defense. Blocking shots. These kind of grinders are needed, IMO to get through gruesome playoff series. Again, our finesse guys played consistent. Again, there was a healthy combination of finesse and grit.

I'm not giving credit to Dallas Drake for our championship in 2008, but guys like him help us physically compete with other teams in long playoff series.

Many will say "Oh well we were one game away from the Conference championship series with a really soft team". I didn't realize that was good enough around here. There is room for improvement on this team.

Detroit # 1 Fan likes this

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People are so funny. Toughness is relative, and the Wings have been one of the softest teams in the league for all of our recent Cups. The way some people talk about the Cup years now, you'd think we led the league in majors, as opposed to being last or close like we really were. I'm sure if we win the Cup this year, in a few years we'll see folks reminiscing about the toughness of Bert, E, and Abby.

So we haven't won a Cup without an enforcer. How many times have we (or any other team) actually had a season without one?

How about this. In 98, we beat Washington in the Finals. Washington was last in the league in majors, we were next to last. In 02, we beat Carolina. We were last, Carolina was next to last. In 08 we were last, Pittsburgh was 10th. (I don't have the stats for 97, but I'm pretty sure we were near the bottom.)

There is no correlation at all between toughness or fighting and playoff success. Some tough teams win, some soft teams win.

Maybe the best post in the thread. Not a hard thing to accomplish, but still.

Another funny thing is how people have used the Wings bad luck with injuries the last few years as proof we need an enforcer. Well, what about this year? Why are we so healthy without an enforcer? Everyone should be taking runs constantly at this soft and defenseless team.

Finnish Wing and Zeowingsfan like this

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Maybe the best post in the thread. Not a hard thing to accomplish, but still.

Another funny thing is how people have used the Wings bad luck with injuries the last few years as proof we need an enforcer. Well, what about this year? Why are we so healthy without an enforcer? Everyone should be taking runs constantly at this soft and defenseless team.

Apart from "we are so healthy" being a stupid thing to say half way through the season, stopping players taking runs at players is only one plus of having some bangers/fighters. What about creating energy when a team is down? Wearing the other team down on the grind? Allowing players to play and feel protected? Not to mention providing fantastic entertainment and creating tasty rivalries?

Eh? Also the post you quoted as the best post wasn't very good either. Trying to call the 96-97 Avs-Wings brawling team soft is a ******* joke if you ask me. They only had McCarty, Pushor, Lapointe, Shanahan and JOEY KOCUR.

What a bunch of cup winning softies.

esteef and Detroit # 1 Fan like this

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Guys, we have a player on our team who paralyzed a guy once.

What do want Holland to do, sign a polar bear?

For some reason when I saw sign a polar bear I thought of Lilja. God if only he could still menace the ice like he used to pre-concussion :ph34r:

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