Be honest..

[DickieDunn 2,571]

What's the point of being in the race if you have no shot at winning? High picks with good scouts often leads to success. Signing mediocre players constantly leads to mediocre results. The Blues and Hawks both had long playoff streaks that never got them the Cup. Who cares. Nobody remembers the team that got in as the 6 seed and ALMOST won a round, they all remember the champs.

It wouldn't really take a full tank job anyway. If Larkin turns into anything close to his potential and AA, Mantha, and Svechnikov turn into legit top six forwards and Mrazek is close to as good as his fanboys insist, they need a couple higher end D and maybe one elite level forward.

[kliq 3,755]

5 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

What's the point of being in the race if you have no shot at winning? High picks with good scouts often leads to success. Signing mediocre players constantly leads to mediocre results. The Blues and Hawks both had long playoff streaks that never got them the Cup. Who cares. Nobody remembers the team that got in as the 6 seed and ALMOST won a round, they all remember the champs.

It wouldn't really take a full tank job anyway. If Larkin turns into anything close to his potential and AA, Mantha, and Svechnikov turn into legit top six forwards and Mrazek is close to as good as his fanboys insist, they need a couple higher end D and maybe one elite level forward.

Does it? Other then the 3 outliers I outlined, not many teams have had success based on YOUR narrative, you clearly say success is defined as winning a cup, that's all people remember right.

In response to your obligatory Helm/Abby comment because we need to discuss them in every thread in addition to the thread's you create to complain about them, signing guys like that are not going to ruin your team and lead to mediocre results. Detroit's problem is that they don't have any elite level talent right now to put with them.

Any elite team has elite guys, middle of the road guys, and lower end guys. We have the middle/lower end guys, we just don't have the elite. Having the middle/lower end guys is not what is hurting us, its not having the elite. You make it sound like Abby/Helm=failure which is an incorrect narrative.

[marcaractac 3,963]

9 hours ago, kickazz said:

I disagree. Here's why.

Just look at our attendance rate every season in the link below. We're one of the best selling franchises in the continent. In fact we sell more tickets now  than we did in 07-08. Last season (2015-16) we sold almost as many tickets as we did in the 2001-2002 season. This is my whole point. This is exactly why Mike Illitch and family would never go for tank job. They honestly have no reason to because regardless of whether we're number 1 in the conference or number 8 and squeezing into the playoffs, the franchise is still a top selling team as far as attendance is concerned. 

Check out the link and the different years. You'll be surprised. 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance/_/sort/homeTotal

And with the new arena opening and ticket prices likely going up, they'll continue to have the sell out crowds and just end up making more $$ per ticket sold. Making playoffs is a win-win for them as far as dollars are concerned. Missing the playoffs and tanking for 8 years straight doesn't guarantee we make the finals. But it probably will cause them to lose faithful fans.

8 years of playoffs and 82 sold out/ nearly sold out games and maintain high ticket prices? 

8 years of tanking and by year 4 drop in attendance rate and ticket prices? 

 

I said nothing about tanking for 8 years. I've said multiple times in this thread that contention can come from merely one or two abysmal seasons. If the Wings lucked out and won the draft lottery for next summer, drafting a guy like Nolan Patrick combined with the new arena would be enough to keep asses in seats for a couple years. 

The two options in the poll are just straight up not realistic. 

[kickazz 5,459]

Right I'm speaking purely in context of poll question. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

 

6 hours ago, Richdg said:

Coffey was a throw in. Bowman wanted him gone and Hartford wanted Primeau. That was why he was traded away by Hartford after 20 games. I realize this was 20 years ago now but Coffey was driven out of town by the greatest coach in NHL history for nothing.

..... "for nothing"... aka Brendan Shanahan. Just because you say that Bowman didn't want Coffey (maybe he didn't, but I doubt he thought he was worthless like you claim...) doesn't mean he had "zero value". In a trade scenario, it's the other teams in the league that dictate how much a player is worth. No matter how many times you say it, Coffey absolutely did have value as a point producing defenseman. Otherwise he wouldn't have played another 5 years until he was 40, playing in 255 games, putting up 121 points... Imagine how valuable Kronwall would be if he played another 5 years putting up those kinds of numbers...

Edited November 16, 2016 by krsmith17

[The Secret 304]

Adding elite talent to a poorly coached team will give you a poorly coached team with elite talent. I don't have any faith in Blashill's system to think even an elite talent would change things much. You'd have an elite player skating around as confused and unorganized as the rest of the team, not knowing who his line mates will be each shift, thinking he needs to take the whole team on his back to be able to win... eventually leading to an elite player becoming frustrated. Start by getting a real coach and then see what happens.

[shocky2002 36]

Wow, 13 people would rather not win a cup. Damn. 

On 16/11/2016 at 6:25 AM, The Secret said:

Adding elite talent to a poorly coached team will give you a poorly coached team with elite talent. I don't have any faith in Blashill's system to think even an elite talent would change things much. You'd have an elite player skating around as confused and unorganized as the rest of the team, not knowing who his line mates will be each shift, thinking he needs to take the whole team on his back to be able to win... eventually leading to an elite player becoming frustrated. Start by getting a real coach and then see what happens.

One of the most clueless posts in this thread. Embarrassing.

[kliq 3,755]

I didnt vote because I didnt like the tone of the poll, but I think this small sample size shows you why the Illitch's/Holland etc. are not tanking.

[xault 272]

My problem with this team, is I barely care to watch it. I can watch / be a fan of bad teams. I've watched the Lions,Tigers,Pistons for 20+ years after all. But I gotta have a player or two worth my time to watch. No one on the Wings at this time is fun to watch. At least with Datz, even last season, when he was on the ice I felt like I could jump out of my seat at any moment. Just not a single player on this team worth the ticket price if you ask me. That's the main problem for me. Maybe that means I put players before the team. I don't know, but as it is I don't see that changing anytime soon. I've not missed more than two hand fulls of Red Wings hockey well over 10 years. I can say that.

 

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Quote

My problem with this team, is I barely care to watch it. I can watch / be a fan of bad teams. I've watched the Lions,Tigers,Pistons for 20+ years after all. But I gotta have a player or two worth my time to watch. No one on the Wings at this time is fun to watch. At least with Datz, even last season, when he was on the ice I felt like I could jump out of my seat at any moment. Just not a single player on this team worth the ticket price if you ask me. That's the main problem for me. Maybe that means I put players before the team. I don't know, but as it is I don't see that changing anytime soon. I've not missed more than two hand fulls of Red Wings hockey well over 10 years. I can say that.

I think you actually bring up a good point here and I agree to an extent.  

The one thing I do get excited about is seeing our team speed....when the transition game isn't completely off the rails.

Also Sproul's slap shot.  It's been a while since we've had a shot like that from the point.

But those are not worth the price of admission. lol

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

3 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Must agree with both xault, and Son of a Wing that this current Red Wings team is about as much fun to watch as paint drying.

Larkin having his sophomore slump, Sheahan not doing much, Tatar/Nyquist appear incapable, Vanek/AA both injured, our D is sloppy, our netminders are doing their best, and Hank is looking like Stevie Y circa 2006.

Was watching my 'distant 2nd favorite team' last night - the Maple Leafs...They looked pretty darn good, and I'm beginning to wonder if the Wings should follow suit.

At least we're fighting a lot.  As for Larkin, his sophomore slump started after the ASG last season.

We don't need to mimic the Leafs.  They're one of the most hapless franchises in sports.  

[The Secret 304]

On 2016-11-17 at 0:50 PM, shocky2002 said:

Wow, 13 people would rather not win a cup. Damn. 

One of the most clueless posts in this thread. Embarrassing.

So... fill me in Shocky. Give me a clue.  Embarrassing is this teams performance under Jeff Blashill. Clueless is the way this entire team looks just about every night they play. Sad is that there are still people that are defending this terrible coach.

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, The Secret said:

So... fill me in Shocky. Give me a clue.  Embarrassing is this teams performance under Jeff Blashill. Clueless is the way this entire team looks just about every night they play. Sad is that there are still people that are defending this terrible coach.

Ignore him, he's just trolling. Think of it like you are at dinner and adults are speaking, and then a 6 year old starts to share their thoughts and everyone looks, pauses, then just continues the conversation.

To your actual point, I don/t think Blashill is a terrible coach, but I don't think at the NHL he is a good coach either. He has done well at every level he has every coached, and he's likely going to take time to adjust to the NHL. If coaching in the NHL was easy, anyone could do it.

The question becomes, do the Wings want to wait and let him grow as a coach here if it is felt that he has a high ceiling? OR do they need immediate results, and this is not our guy. The answer....I have no clue and I am glad I am not Ken Holland lol.

 

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

Our problem is not making the playoffs and thus not drafting top5...our problem is handcuffing the team through overpaying bad or average players to a degree that not enough cap is left to throw maximum money at the real targets in free agency...and then playing these guys in roles they are just not goog enogh for, because playing them lower or sitting them would mean admitting how bad these contracts were...

With good management resulting in under, not above average deals for ericsson (or just no deal, in his case..), abdelkader, helm and weiss (previously) we would have enough cap flexibility to offer other terms to the big guns than we were before. Plus, giving away talent like Jarnkrok for one-year-rentals shot us in the foot, too..

[kliq 3,755]

42 minutes ago, The Datsyukian Deke said:

Our problem is not making the playoffs and thus not drafting top5...our problem is handcuffing the team through overpaying bad or average players to a degree that not enough cap is left to throw maximum money at the real targets in free agency...and then playing these guys in roles they are just not goog enogh for, because playing them lower or sitting them would mean admitting how bad these contracts were...

With good management resulting in under, not above average deals for ericsson (or just no deal, in his case..), abdelkader, helm and weiss (previously) we would have enough cap flexibility to offer other terms to the big guns than we were before. Plus, giving away talent like Jarnkrok for one-year-rentals shot us in the foot, too..

Here is my question though, who did we not get in UFA that was "elite" that we were not able to sign because of those deals? Who was "maximum worth" in UFA that we did not get because of cap issues? David Backes? Milan Lucic? Matt Niskanen? Paul Stasny? We did make a pitch for Matt Niskanen, but "cap issues" were not why we didn't land him. Sometimes players just want to play somewhere else (ie. Suter).

I am not saying those deals are not hurting us at all, but I haven't seen a specific circumstance where the correct narrative was "Oh shoot, we could have signed player X if we had the cap room" unless player X was another mid level player which would be no different then what we have been doing.

The only thing these mid level players have done is caused us to lose Nestrasil and Pulkkinen. If you want to make the argument that they are taking spots from guys like Mantha, Frk etc. sure I see that, but those guys are not elite at this point, and that is not our biggest problem.

The one time in years that an elite player was about to become available in UFA (Stamkos) Holland made sure there was space. Stamkos didn't stay in TB because we couldn't afford him due to the cap.

In 2016 UFA has become an avenue for mid level guys to be overpaid in either total dollars or term (ie. Niesen). Elite talent just doesn't hit free agency anymore for whatever reason.

Have these contracts hurt us in regards to trades? I dont think so. If Holland had an opportunity to get a guy like Trouba for a reasonable return (ie. not Larkin), he would not have a hard time shedding salary. You can trade a guy like Tatar or Nyquist for picks if you want.

Our issues are what I stated earlier, our elite/high end talent regressed before our kids were able to step in and replace them. Its simple. And yes, not drafting top 5 does make it harder to land franchise players.

Again, please do not misinterpret this as me saying that all the contracts given to mid range players are great or not an issue at all. What I am saying is they are not the reason we are not elite right now. In 4 years from now when players like Larkin or Mantha are due for their next contract, that is when these contracts COULD be an issue.

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

Your're right about many aspects of it, no doubt. My thoughts are just...

- when you're obviously not a preferred destination in terms of city/weather (if i was Stamkos, that would've been a major reason to remain in Tampa, too ), you need to convince otherwise

- showing of a roster with bad contracts won't make agents more likely to tell their players, if they wan't to have a chance to win,  "hey, go to detroit, they're almost there"

- having bad contracts and playing those players has already cost us development time for kids we cannot get back...where would young DMen potentially be if that slot wasn't blocked by Ericsson for years?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

We lack elite talent. Babcock bailed. Datsyuk bailed. Zetterberg is a shell. Kronwall is a shell.

Tatar, Nyquist, Abby, Vanek, Larkin, Nielsen are all at best 2nd line players right now.

Maybe if Franzen didn't bang himself up so much we'd have some elite level talent on this team right now.

[LeftWinger 4,962]

Vanek, Larkin, Mantha and Nielsen are carrying this team, and as much as I agree Z is a shell of himself, he too is carrying us. Franzen was never elite...not even close. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

46 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Vanek, Larkin, Mantha and Nielsen are carrying this team, and as much as I agree Z is a shell of himself, he too is carrying us. Franzen was never elite...not even close. 

A powerforward that can put up close to 60 pts a season is elite in my book

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, F.Michael said:

A power forward could score goals, AND punch faces (then again I'm a 1980's  neanderthal who still enjoys a scrap in the game of hockey).

Franzen reminds me more of a Dave Andreychuk type where he can be physical, but certainly not intimidating where he didn't make any space for himself via fisticuffs which IMHO is why he was run at by the opposition.

Shanahan, Clark, Roberts, Tocchet, and Neely are my definition of what a power forward should be.

In this current league Hudler is probably considered a power forward.

In all seriousness though, to be considered a power forward today I think you just have to be big and willing to stand in front of the net. Fighting is bad mmkay?

[chaps80 1,591]

I remember when people were calling Franzen a power forward lol

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Question. Was Holmstrom a power forward?

[LeftWinger 4,962]

Power forward has nothing to do with standing in front of the net. Shanahan was the definition of a power forward, just how many times did you see him standing in front of the net like Holmstrom? Holmstrom was not a power forward and neither was Ciccarelli, both of which made their living in front of the net. Hudler a power forward? Not even in tomorrow's nhl, let alone today's. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Power forward has nothing to do with standing in front of the net. Shanahan was the definition of a power forward, just how many times did you see him standing in front of the net like Holmstrom? Holmstrom was not a power forward and neither was Ciccarelli, both of which made their living in front of the net. Hudler a power forward? Not even in tomorrow's nhl, let alone today's. 

Sarcasm Alert  

Perhaps standing in front of the net was a poor choice of words. Allow me to elaborate. A powerforward in today's NHL, to me, is someone who goes to the dirty areas and plays physically but is more offensively skilled than a grinder type defensive specialist. This is a player who goes to the front of the net, digs the puck out in the corners, plays with an edge, and can notch some points while doing this. Being a PF isn't really about fighting anymore.

[LeftWinger 4,962]

This is can agree with!