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2020 Draft Thread

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2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

ROR is a ******* beast, and anyone who thinks otherwise is blind. Lol Sabres....

While I was fully aboard the Lafreniere train, it's because I see him as in a teir above the rest. In that case, sure, take the winger. As long as he is more than "guy who puts up points" which I feel Laffy is. Sure the kid won't win any Selke trophies, but he does backcheck and play his ass off. He does come up clutch, he isn't afraid to battle for the puck, and he isn't afraid to play physical. 

But he is off the table, and Drysdale and Rossi I feel are the best options at #4. Though I kind of expect the Sens to take one of them at #3 tbh. Seeing the impact Makar and Q.Hughes are currently having in the playoffs as kids sure makes Drysdale's stock rise. If we draft someone like Raymond I'll be quite disappointed.  

I think Raymond's gonna fall on draft day. I think Lafreniere and Holtz are the first two wingers off the board. I really don't understand the allure of the playmaking winger.  If you're drafting a winger, get a guy who can find the back of the net.

I don't know if Lafreniere will be the kind of elite two-way guy you're discussing here or not. In recent memory there are only really two wingers, Hossa and Mark Stone, that have that kind of impact both ways. I expect Lafreniere to basically be a Jonathan Huberdeau or Mikko Ratanen. A big, physical, power forward with tons of offensive skill. But I wouldn't count on him being a stud two way player, penalty killer, or (obviously) face off guy.

If I were the Rangers I'd trade back with Ottawa at 3 and take a center. Their center depth is as bad or worse than ours and they've already got Panarin, Kakko, Kravtsov, Kreider, Gauthier, and Buchnevich on the wings.

Edited by kipwinger

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2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

There's a good chance Ottawa wants Drysdale considering they have no decent right shot defensemen on their team or in their system. But I'm not sure they'll take him at three considering it's pretty obvious that Detroit is going to take a forward. We're already all set on right side defensemen. I suspect Ottawa nabs Stutzle at 3 and Drysdale at 5.

Maybe. If I'm Yzerman, I hint around that Drysdale is his man and maybe that forces Ottawa's hand to take him at 3, knowing they'll still have a Rossi, Raymond, Perfetti, etc available at 5.

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27 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Maybe. If I'm Yzerman, I hint around that Drysdale is his man and maybe that forces Ottawa's hand to take him at 3, knowing they'll still have a Rossi, Raymond, Perfetti, etc available at 5.

I don't understand this line of thinking. If Stutzle is so "meh" that a team would rather have Drysdale then why would we want him any more than anyone else available to us? If a team would rather NOT have Tim Stutzle, as opposed to Rossi, Raymond, or Perfetti then he's probably not much (or at all) better than them. And therefore he's probably not worth any additional effort.

This is the same thing that happened with Zadina. Everyone assumed he was way better than other guys we could have taken because he had been more highly ranked all year. But he fell for a reason. We were all jumping for joy because we thought we got a top three talent. The reality is, he was never a top three talent and we would have been MUCH better off with Quinn Hughes, someone that NOBODY thought was a top three talent.

Edited by kipwinger

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1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I think Raymond's gonna fall on draft day. I think Lafreniere and Holtz are the first two wingers off the board. I really don't understand the allure of the playmaking winger.  If you're drafting a winger, get a guy who can find the back of the net.

Yeah, who wants a player like Mitch Marner or Patrick Kane...

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I don't understand this line of thinking. If Stutzle is so "meh" that a team would rather have Drysdale then why would we want him any more than anyone else available to us? If a team would rather NOT have Tim Stutzle, as opposed to Rossi, Raymond, or Perfetti then he's probably not much (or at all) better than them. And therefore he's probably not worth any additional effort.

Uh, maybe because different teams value different players differently...

I'm sure there are teams that would rather Perfetti over your boy Rossi as well (Detroit may be one of them). Does that mean that all teams should rather Perfetti over Rossi? Probably not...

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, who wants a player like Mitch Marner or Patrick Kane...

Uh, maybe because different teams value different players differently...

I'm sure there are teams that would rather Perfetti over your boy Rossi as well (Detroit may be one of them). Does that mean that all teams should rather Perfetti over Rossi? Probably not...

Yep, I'm sure Raymond will turn out to be as good as those guys. Give me the guy everyone says is the best pure goal scorer in the draft class (Holtz) over the "if we're really really really really really really lucky he might be as good as Patrick Kane or Mitch Marner one day" guy (Raymond).

As for your second point, you're literally saying the same thing I am. You're just too belligerent to know it. If Stutzle is generally as talented as the other guys you mentioned, enough so that other teams are willing to pass on him for them, then you don't really need to make any extra effort to incentivize them to do so.

Edited by kipwinger

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26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yep, I'm sure Raymond will turn out to be as good as those guys. Give me the guy everyone says is the best pure goal scorer in the draft class (Holtz) over the "if we're really really really really really really lucky he might be as good as Patrick Kane or Mitch Marner one day" guy (Raymond).

As for your second point, you're literally saying the same thing I am. You're just too belligerent to know it. If Stutzle is generally as talented as the other guys you mentioned, enough so that other teams are willing to pass on him for them, then you don't really need to make any extra effort to incentivize them to do so.

LOL So you'll take the best goal scoring winger in the draft over the best play-making winger in the draft, blind? A player that scores goals is that much more valuable to you then a player that sets up goals, regardless of the degree of ability from each? You would be an awful scout...

The point that Neo was making, that I tend to agree with, is that if Ottawa are set on coming away from this draft with the top defenseman (Drysdale) and a forward (let's say they have two they're relatively equally as high on), and they think there's a chance Detroit could take Drysdale at 4, they would obviously be smart to take Drysdale at 3, and one of their top two ranked forwards at 5. Unless of course, they think Stutzle (or Byfield) is that much better than anyone else. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL So you'll take the best goal scoring winger in the draft over the best play-making winger in the draft, blind? A player that scores goals is that much more valuable to you then a player that sets up goals, regardless of the degree of ability from each? You would be an awful scout...

The point that Neo was making, that I tend to agree with, is that if Ottawa are set on coming away from this draft with the top defenseman (Drysdale) and a forward (let's say they have two they're relatively equally as high on), and they think there's a chance Detroit could take Drysdale at 4, they would obviously be smart to take Drysdale at 3, and one of their top two ranked forwards at 5. Unless of course, they think Stutzle (or Byfield) is that much better than anyone else. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Yes. They may prefer a combination of a RH D Drysdale and (insert some other forward here not named Stutzle or Byfield) over Byfield/Stutzle and LH D Jake Sanderson, for example. 

If it was me, and I had no top pair caliber RHD in my system, I would prefer the former scenario because I'm filling a harder need to find with a top tier player in Drysdale and still getting a solid F, even if they're a step below Stutzle/Byfield

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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52 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yes. They may prefer a combination of a RH D Drysdale and (insert some other forward here not named Stutzle or Byfield) over Byfield/Stutzle and LH D Jake Sanderson, for example. 

If it was me, and I had no top pair caliber RHD in my system, I would prefer the former scenario because I'm filling a harder need to find with a top tier player in Drysdale and still getting a solid F, even if they're a step below Stutzle/Byfield

Next year's draft class is heavy on defensemen. I'm sure Ottawa knows this. If Stutzle is really as good as every seems to think there's no way they pass on him for the RHD that everyone seems to agree is a tier below Stutzle. And if Stutzle ISN'T a tier above Drysdale, then he's not worth worrying about when we'll have our choice of Rossi or Perfetti.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL So you'll take the best goal scoring winger in the draft over the best play-making winger in the draft, blind? A player that scores goals is that much more valuable to you then a player that sets up goals, regardless of the degree of ability from each? You would be an awful scout...

The point that Neo was making, that I tend to agree with, is that if Ottawa are set on coming away from this draft with the top defenseman (Drysdale) and a forward (let's say they have two they're relatively equally as high on), and they think there's a chance Detroit could take Drysdale at 4, they would obviously be smart to take Drysdale at 3, and one of their top two ranked forwards at 5. Unless of course, they think Stutzle (or Byfield) is that much better than anyone else. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Yep, I'd rather have a goal scoring winger than a playmaking winger all things being equal. I would have thought that was clear by my original post.

As for the rest of this drivel, if Ottawa is set on coming away from this draft with a forward and a defensemen I presume they'd rather take the best player available to them at 3, which is Stutzle, and then Sanderson (who is generally considered in the same tier as Drysdale). That way they'd be getting best overall player available to them and still fill their needs.

Now, if you could stop replying to my posts that would be great. I ignored you a long time ago and I would generally be thrilled if I could just pretend you don't exist. I don't engage you for a reason.

Edited by kipwinger

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LOL you don't engage me because I make you look like a complete jackass every time you do...

Where to even begin here... 

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Next year's draft class is heavy on defensemen. I'm sure Ottawa knows this. If Stutzle is really as good as every seems to think there's no way they pass on him for the RHD that everyone seems to agree is a tier below Stutzle. And if Stutzle ISN'T a tier above Drysdale, then he's not worth worrying about when we'll have our choice of Rossi or Perfetti.

Except for the fact that Ottawa's board may be (likely is) very different from "everyone" else's board...

How dumb do you have to be to think all teams draft the "consensus" best player available, according to Bob McKenzie's final draft rankings...

24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yep, I'd rather have a goal scoring winger than a playmaking winger all things being equal. I would have thought that was clear by my original post.

Things are rarely ever "equal" though, and if Yzerman and co. believe that the playmaking winger will have more of an impact than the goal scoring winger, they take that player.

26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

As for the rest of this drivel, if Ottawa is set on coming away from this draft with a forward and a defensemen I presume they'd rather take the best player available to them at 3, which is Stutzle, and then Sanderson (who is generally considered in the same tier as Drysdale). That way they'd be getting best overall player available to them and still fill their needs.

The best player available to the Ottawa Senators may very well be Drysdale. And I know it's very difficult for you to comprehend this, but that does not necessarily mean that Drysdale would be the best player available for every other team.

Maybe the Ottawa Senators are as dumb as you, and decide to draft based on need, rather than best player available (according to their board), and take Drysdale at 3...

"generally considered"... Holy f*** dude, go read some more mock drafts you f***ing simpleton.

31 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Now, if you could stop replying to my posts that would be great. I ignored you a long time ago and I would generally be thrilled if I could just pretend you don't exist. I don't engage you for a reason.

I'm not going to ask you to stop replying to me, you do what you do, but if you are going to respond, please bring some common sense next time...

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17 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I think Raymond's gonna fall on draft day. I think Lafreniere and Holtz are the first two wingers off the board. I really don't understand the allure of the playmaking winger.  If you're drafting a winger, get a guy who can find the back of the net.

I don't know if Lafreniere will be the kind of elite two-way guy you're discussing here or not. In recent memory there are only really two wingers, Hossa and Mark Stone, that have that kind of impact both ways. I expect Lafreniere to basically be a Jonathan Huberdeau or Mikko Ratanen. A big, physical, power forward with tons of offensive skill. But I wouldn't count on him being a stud two way player, penalty killer, or (obviously) face off guy.

If I were the Rangers I'd trade back with Ottawa at 3 and take a center. Their center depth is as bad or worse than ours and they've already got Panarin, Kakko, Kravtsov, Kreider, Gauthier, and Buchnevich on the wings.

Yeah it seems every draft centers/dmen always rise and some wingers fall. Like Zadina. As for LAfreniere, I don't think he'll be an elite twi-way winger, just a hgigh scoring winger who does still backcheck. Back checking will never be the strongest part of his game, but he does do it, which is why i'll never classify him as a one dimensional winger. Basically, he'll be a winger who won't count on a center to do all the work for him, as he is very capable without the puck. But alas, he will be a Rag, despite that they are indeed starved for elite centers.

But yeah, we will continue to see a lot more stuff like Kotkaniemi's and Hayton's move up in favour of higher ranked wingers. My prediction is Lafreniere will be the only winger drafted in the top 5. 

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42 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Yeah it seems every draft centers/dmen always rise and some wingers fall. Like Zadina. As for LAfreniere, I don't think he'll be an elite twi-way winger, just a hgigh scoring winger who does still backcheck. Back checking will never be the strongest part of his game, but he does do it, which is why i'll never classify him as a one dimensional winger. Basically, he'll be a winger who won't count on a center to do all the work for him, as he is very capable without the puck. But alas, he will be a Rag, despite that they are indeed starved for elite centers.

But yeah, we will continue to see a lot more stuff like Kotkaniemi's and Hayton's move up in favour of higher ranked wingers. My prediction is Lafreniere will be the only winger drafted in the top 5. 

Yeah, teams will still reach for positional need, and those teams will still regret those decisions down the road. The jury is still out on Kotkaniemi and Zadina, but as of now, I would bet on Zadina having the better NHL career, regardless of position. 

Lafreniere may be the only winger taken in the top 5, but I'll bet at least one other winger will end up being top 5, ahead of some of the highly touted centers from this draft.

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12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, teams will still reach for positional need, and those teams will still regret those decisions down the road. The jury is still out on Kotkaniemi and Zadina, but as of now, I would bet on Zadina having the better NHL career, regardless of position. 

Lafreniere may be the only winger taken in the top 5, but I'll bet at least one other winger will end up being top 5, ahead of some of the highly touted centers from this draft.

Outside of the top 1 or 2 players in each draft, there is rarely any agreement on players ranked 2/3-6/7. That just goes to show there are no standouts, and there is often nobody in that range clearly a tier above the rest. Therefore, drafting positional need anywhere in that range is the smart move. 

Ask the Oilers how BPA has worked out for them. That's how you draft Yakupov. You can still argue Seguin vs Hall to this day, but I'd have taken Seguin back then and I still would now. Sure, you always draft the McDavid's. But if they took a dman once or twice with some of these picks, they'd already be in the playoffs every year by now. 

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18 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I don't understand this line of thinking. If Stutzle is so "meh" that a team would rather have Drysdale then why would we want him any more than anyone else available to us? If a team would rather NOT have Tim Stutzle, as opposed to Rossi, Raymond, or Perfetti then he's probably not much (or at all) better than them. And therefore he's probably not worth any additional effort.

This is the same thing that happened with Zadina. Everyone assumed he was way better than other guys we could have taken because he had been more highly ranked all year. But he fell for a reason. We were all jumping for joy because we thought we got a top three talent. The reality is, he was never a top three talent and we would have been MUCH better off with Quinn Hughes, someone that NOBODY thought was a top three talent.

Love the post, but I'll point out the obvious error in bold.  :cool:

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11 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL you don't engage me because I make you look like a complete jackass every time you do...

Where to even begin here... 

Except for the fact that Ottawa's board may be (likely is) very different from "everyone" else's board...

How dumb do you have to be to think all teams draft the "consensus" best player available, according to Bob McKenzie's final draft rankings...

Things are rarely ever "equal" though, and if Yzerman and co. believe that the playmaking winger will have more of an impact than the goal scoring winger, they take that player.

The best player available to the Ottawa Senators may very well be Drysdale. And I know it's very difficult for you to comprehend this, but that does not necessarily mean that Drysdale would be the best player available for every other team.

Maybe the Ottawa Senators are as dumb as you, and decide to draft based on need, rather than best player available (according to their board), and take Drysdale at 3...

"generally considered"... Holy f*** dude, go read some more mock drafts you f***ing simpleton.

I'm not going to ask you to stop replying to me, you do what you do, but if you are going to respond, please bring some common sense next time...

I'd bet he doesn't engage you because you're an arrogant prig who sits at the keyboard waiting to pounce on anyone who posts... you're especially toxic when someone makes a well reasoned, well constructed point that challenges your opinion, because it's easier to attack than consider the obvious... that you're wrong.

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59 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Outside of the top 1 or 2 players in each draft, there is rarely any agreement on players ranked 2/3-6/7. That just goes to show there are no standouts, and there is often nobody in that range clearly a tier above the rest. Therefore, drafting positional need anywhere in that range is the smart move. 

Ask the Oilers how BPA has worked out for them. That's how you draft Yakupov. You can still argue Seguin vs Hall to this day, but I'd have taken Seguin back then and I still would now. Sure, you always draft the McDavid's. But if they took a dman once or twice with some of these picks, they'd already be in the playoffs every year by now. 

Just because there isn't any agreement in that range in mock drafts, doesn't mean each individual organization doesn't have a list they stick to. And I'm sure there are standouts in every tier for each organization. The only time a team should consider positional need is if two players are too similar to otherwise decide. I doubt that's often the case though.

The Oilers had bad luck sucking in relatively weak draft years. They also had bad scouting for several years, but even more than that, terrible player development.

54 minutes ago, mackel said:

I'd bet he doesn't engage you because you're an arrogant prig who sits at the keyboard waiting to pounce on anyone who posts... you're especially toxic when someone makes a well reasoned, well constructed point that challenges your opinion, because it's easier to attack than consider the obvious... that you're wrong.

I'm arrogant with morons like kip, and on the occasion CRL. I'm civil with mostly everyone else here.

I'm wrong? Says the guy that still think Filip Zadina was a 6th overall bust... LOL

What exactly am I wrong about here? You think teams should draft for need rather than best player available?

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6 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Yeah it seems every draft centers/dmen always rise and some wingers fall. Like Zadina. As for LAfreniere, I don't think he'll be an elite twi-way winger, just a hgigh scoring winger who does still backcheck. Back checking will never be the strongest part of his game, but he does do it, which is why i'll never classify him as a one dimensional winger. Basically, he'll be a winger who won't count on a center to do all the work for him, as he is very capable without the puck. But alas, he will be a Rag, despite that they are indeed starved for elite centers.

But yeah, we will continue to see a lot more stuff like Kotkaniemi's and Hayton's move up in favour of higher ranked wingers. My prediction is Lafreniere will be the only winger drafted in the top 5. 

I'm not so sure Stutzle will be a center.

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I went back and looked at the last few lotteries.  Considering the placeholder that originally won this year's 1st overall pick belonged to Winnipeg who had the 12th best odds, 12th best odds has won a top 3 pick 3 years in a row.  I also find it funny that The Rangers and Jets have both moved up from 6 to 2 in previous lotteries, and now they essentially both won the lottery this year.

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2 minutes ago, CatBoyRossi said:

F. Michael,

The Red Wings has wingers: Mantha, Fabbri, Bertuzzi, Teamashov, Svechnikov, Zadina, Helm, Hirose, Smith
But there is no center after Larkin: Nobody

Rossi is a very good center and Perfetti is a poor skating winger. Draper would be very foolish to making this decision considering our bench. 

Kind regards

You're not fooling anyone with your sock...

Veleno and Rasmussen are somebody's.

Perfetti's "poor skating" is being massively overstated.

There's also nothing that would indicate that Rossi will translate into an NHL center, but Perfetti won't. 

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19 minutes ago, CatBoyRossi said:

krsmith17,

Veleno has very long to train still before ready. Rasmussen appears as a winger to me.

Perfetti is not a strong skater. That much is clear.

Rossi is a very good center. Best center in the draft I contend.

Thank you

Disagreed about Ras. Hes a better center than Veleno ever will be.

50 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You're not fooling anyone with your sock...

Veleno and Rasmussen are somebody's.

Perfetti's "poor skating" is being massively overstated.

There's also nothing that would indicate that Rossi will translate into an NHL center, but Perfetti won't. 

Lol hey schizo,

Take ur meds

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