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Buppy

Member Since 14 Feb 2009
Offline Last Active Today, 02:03 PM
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#2040184 Wings release Aaron Downey

Posted by Buppy on 03 October 2010 - 07:02 PM

I stopped reading after this line because you clearly haven't read any of my posts or are intentionally ignoring any of the points I've made several times in this thread.

So there's really no reason to bother reading yours as I'm guessing you're refuting the fictional argument you've invented for me.

Hmm...

I'm not gonna argue that you need an enforcer to win a Cup, but your reasoning doesn't prove anything. Because in your opinion the Wings had a team capable of winning the Cup and they didn't have an enforcer, that somehow proves that you don't need an enforcer to win the Cup??

They didn't win the cup, so it proves nothing. It's all just speculation on your part.
...

So you're not saying an enforcer is needed, but you're saying it hasn't been proven that an enforcer is not needed either. What's the point of that argument other than maintaining of the possibility that enforcers are needed.

One or the other is true, either you need an enforcer or you don't. If you don't beleive an enforcer IS needed, you have to believe that an enforcer is NOT needed.

But for some reason you're just not willing to commit to either answer, or at least, not willing to say the words. Instead you just pussyfoot around it, saying 'well, we don't need one, but we haven't won without one so maybe we do'. If you want to argue just that having an enforcer can be valuable, just do that. You countered my specific point asserting that enforcers are not needed. Why do that if you agree with it?


#2040153 Wings release Aaron Downey

Posted by Buppy on 03 October 2010 - 06:19 PM

Abby wiLl never be anything more than a grinder. He'll never be an enforcer. That's just silly.

Of course he isn't. But if we happen to win the Cup just watch the revisionist history. This will somehow become a tough team.

The 97 and 98 Cup teams were soft compared to the rest of the league. There were debates exactly like this back then. Kocur was too old. McCarty wasn't a real heavyweight. We never should have gotten rid of Probert or Grimson. Lapointe and Primeau didn't fight enough, etc. But from the talk about them now you'd think it was one of the toughest teams in NHL history. People talk like McCarty was a fearsome enforcer in 02. The 08 team had the mighty Drake who apparently won us the Cup all by himself.

The Wings are a soft team. We've been a soft team for years and years, and we've won despite that.

I'm not gonna argue that you need an enforcer to win a Cup, but your reasoning doesn't prove anything. Because in your opinion the Wings had a team capable of winning the Cup and they didn't have an enforcer, that somehow proves that you don't need an enforcer to win the Cup??

They didn't win the cup, so it proves nothing. It's all just speculation on your part.

...

Last season the Wings had 19 fights. 10 of which were from Brad May. If Holland knows what he's doing and apparently doesn't believe in enforcers, it's odd how he keeps trying to add guys like May and Downey to the lineup.

And as I said before, it's ridiculous to measure adding an enforcer against whether that one element will win us the Cup. Hockey is obviously a more complex game than that. And this is pretty much the only debate that the standard for adding that kind of player is there has to be definitive proof it will lead the Wings to the Cup. It's absurd.
...

You are saying we need an enforcer to win the Cup. And that is your only argument. You say we need one, I say we don't. I think it's hilarious that you all are so terrified to admit even the possibility that a team can win without an enforcer. I bet you were all relieved when we lost in 09.

And that's the difference. I have no problem admitting that having an enforcer can have its usefulness. I'm just not going say it's an absolute necessity. It isn't. Games are won on the scoreboard. Fighting may help, but it is far from the only way to score or prevent goals. Simple kindergarten logic tells you then that it is absolutely possible to win without fighting. But you all act like making that simple concession would be like admitting that fighting has no value.

As for Holland, let's see what he's really done. He had McCarty when he became GM. McCarty happened to also be a pretty good hockey player. Always a regular in the lineup. Maybe if Holland didn't have that luxury he would have signed someone else. Or maybe not.

McCarty left after the lockout. We didn't carry an enforcer in 05-06. Didn't carry one in 06-07 either. 07-08 we added Downey. 08-09 we had nothing. Downey and McCarty spent the majority of the year in GR. 09-10 we added May, but he was originally signed to play in GR, but got a spot due to injuries. Once the team got healthy, he was waived and sent back to GR. That year we were also jammed against the cap and could only afford a minimum wage player. Thus far this season we have no one.

So, 4 of 6 years with no enforcer, 1 with an enforcer for half the year only because of injuries, and 1 year with an enforcer as the 13th forward, who wasn't taking a spot from anyone better. Yeah, Holland really gives that role a high priority.

We already have a full roster. Too many players in fact. We don't have any room for an enforcer. We don't need an enforcer. An enforcer won't put us over any edge. We have one of the best teams in the league, and we are capable of winning the Cup. With no enforcer. Come back next season when we have a couple spots open.


#2039690 Wings release Aaron Downey

Posted by Buppy on 02 October 2010 - 09:57 PM

Well I think the wings have proven they can win without an enforcer is an absurd statement because they never actually have. EVER. but anti enforcer people love to say it when its not true. I never said that they can't win a cup without one but its just fact that they never have so you can't really use that argument.

And its different then saying that Maltby thing because Maltby is a person but an enforcer is a role on the team. I don't think we would've won those 4 cups without players like Maltby because he used to be physical, ******* that filled an important role on the team.

If you really think Downey or McCarty were the difference between 2008 and 2009 you are certifiably insane.

While the team has almost always had someone capable of fighting, the majority of our teams have featured no one better than McCarty, who wasn't scaring anyone even in his prime. And again, consistently at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors every year for the duration of our current reign as perennial contenders, and over that time posting more Cups, more wins, more points, more playoff wins, and more playoff series wins than any other team in the league. I haven't actually added it up, but I'll bet we have the fewest fights over that time period.

But if you really want to believe that the 10-20 fights we usually have in a year have been the lynch pin of our success, I guess no one can help you.


#2038604 Wings release Aaron Downey

Posted by Buppy on 30 September 2010 - 05:06 PM

It boggles my mind to see Red Wings fans who still think enforcers are needed. For pretty much the past 20 years, the Wings have been at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors (dead last every year since the lockout) and still been the most successful team in the league.

Even allowing that fighting is a valuable ability for a team to have, it is painfully obvious that the lack of it can be compensated for in other areas. Instead, the pro-enforcer crowd just overstates the value of whatever 'enforcer' we've had in the past, even though they probably spent the whole year complaining about how soft we were.

People talk about the 96-98 teams like they were some great monument to team toughness, but the reality is they still rarely fought and were considered 'soft' compared to most of the league. McCarty was never so tough that he scared anyone. People who spent all of 08 whining about how soft we were now talk about Drake like he was one of the great all-time fighters.

This year will likely be no different than any other. We'll have a handful of fights. People will cry about how soft we are, blame every minor injury on our lack of fighters. If we aren't successful it will be because we weren't tough enough. But if we happen to win a Cup, it will be because of great enforcing from Bert and Abby or whoever happens to have a couple fights during the year.

The simple fact is that any deficiency can be overcome by enough strength in other areas. A strong defense can make up for a weaker offense or sub-par goaltending. A strong offense can offset a less than stellar defense. Great depth can overcome injuries or below average play from your stars. Dominant stars can compensate for a lack of depth. There isn't any one thing that is an absolute must have.

It's the general level of team talent, coaching and system, great effort, and a bit of luck that wins Cups. We have the talent, coaching, and system, despite any specific weaknesses we might have. All we really need now is the effort and luck.


#2037372 Do the wings have new jerseys this season?

Posted by Buppy on 26 September 2010 - 11:13 PM

This thread signals the beginning of the Wings season to me. Now get to bickering about goalies and who is lazy and sucks. :hehe:

The pre-season nameplate designer is lazy and sucks.


#2032694 #DanEllisProblems

Posted by Buppy on 12 September 2010 - 07:54 AM

...but I do have to say he has a bit of a point, especially after reading a thing on KK that pointed out some realities about the situation. The thing that sticks out most in my mind from the article is that these guys are only playing until they're 40, and most of them didn't go to college, so it's not like they can actually SPEND $1 mil a year because they need to be saving for 35-50 years of retirement. Obviously Ellis couldn't explain this on Twitter, and I have no idea why he decided to try, but I do understand a little bit about where he's coming from even though he ticked me off supremely.

I left out a ton of stuff from the article, so here's the link:
http://www.kuklaskor...nto_cba_battle/

Not much of a point.

Consider the fact that Ellis has in just the last two years made more money than ~90% of Americans will make in their lifetime. Consider that at age 45, assuming he is credited for 160 games played, he'll get a pension of $45,000/year or more. Consider that retiring from hockey doesn't mean he is unable to work at all. Consider that his high income now gives him extraordinary investment opportunities. He really doesn't have anything to complain about.

I too can understand being upset about losing 18% (or whatever it was) of your expected income. Only natural. But he should also be grateful enough about what he does make to not worry about it. And he damn sure shouldn't be whining about it on the internet. That was just downright stupid. Lol.


#2032530 NHL preparing for work stoppage with refs

Posted by Buppy on 11 September 2010 - 01:51 AM

Yeah, unfortunately, nothing is better than NHL refs. And I mean that literally. "Nothing" would be pretty big improvement over NHL refs. :ph34r:


#2030318 NHL Rejects Kovalchuk's Contract

Posted by Buppy on 31 August 2010 - 01:00 AM

Cap hit of $6.66 million.....on the Devils?!?!

Obviously, they thought they were offering the deal to Miroslav Satan.


#2029153 A Long Time Ago...

Posted by Buppy on 25 August 2010 - 01:42 PM

What about Lando?

Obviously Grant Fuhr, since back in the 80s he was the only black guy ever seen in the galaxy.


#2028783 NHL back in Québec city

Posted by Buppy on 23 August 2010 - 11:20 PM

Do people not understand that you have to have an owner and that it's not a matter of "ok, let's have a team here, here, and here"

The Nordiques were moved because they were sold to owners who wanted to move them to Denver. No amount of petitioning will change that.

Who cares? They'll apparently e-mail you a t-shirt. Crazy Quebecois.


#2028302 Penguins sign Arron Asham

Posted by Buppy on 22 August 2010 - 05:07 PM

I'm not acting like I'm being repressed. There's actually been some good conversations going on in here, like between GMR and mindfly.

Speaking only for myself, sure it would've been nice to pick up Asham for 700k. But I'm not saying he's getting the Wings to the Cup or it's an either or situation with Modano. It's all the people jumping into the thread who've made it that. There's a pretty large gap between saying you'd want a player on the team and that player would make the difference in winning the Cup.

But that's a common argument for shooting it down. "xxxx player is not going to be the difference to get the Wings to the Cup."

And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.

The Draper thing was really an aside which has derailed this thread even more. As I said, I'm a big Draper fan, but Holland was overly optimistic about his contributions to the team when he signed that contract. Or maybe he didn't have enough faith in kids like Helm to replace him.

Really? Prevailing argument? Heaten used that argument once, and you've been harping on it ever since. Mostly, it's been a discussion on the relative merits of Modano and Asham, scoring and grit/fighting. You now seem intent on proving that Holland can make mistakes, as if that proves that this particular move (or non-move in this case) is a mistake.

Now unfortunately, this seems to be devolving into just another enforcer debate. Oh well.


#2028184 Penguins sign Arron Asham

Posted by Buppy on 21 August 2010 - 10:29 PM

The Wings don't need a vocal leader who doesn't contribute much on the ice. That's called the coaching staff.

yes, I think Draper's 4 points in the 08 playoffs are what put us over the top. He certainly contributed more then than he does now. But I'm not quickly forgetting. If you read my post, I said his contract fit his contributions in 08. But you're trying to justify his current pay for things he's done in the past. That's a pretty good example of why it's a bad contract. They signed him for too much or too long.


You're grasping at straws now with nonsensical arguments. Did his contract keep the Wings from making it to the SCF? who knows? how could you ever prove that? Maybe it kept them from winning their second Cup? prove it didn't. The point isn't to pick specific players that his contract has prevented us from getting. That's all speculation. I don't see how you can look at his role on the team these last few seasons and think he's worth that money.

But god forbid someone criticize Red Wings management. This thread started not even so much as criticism, but more, "would've been nice to have him" until all the cheerleaders jumped in.

Actually, it started with 'this sucks' and it's 'worse than getting Williams instead of Prospal'. Little over the top.

And no one's saying management is above criticism. Some of us just think Modano is better for the team than Asham would be. Stop acting like your being repressed. We all have our opinions, all we're doing is discussing them. (Though I would say, as a general rule, Holland does a lot better managing the roster than any of us would, but that's beside the point.)

In regards to Draper, I'll say that it's easy to judge a contract in hindsight. Sure, we could probably replace his value for half (or less) the cost, and possibly use that savings to improve somewhere else. His off-ice contributions might not be missed. Nor, I think, would our reputation for treating our players well have suffered had we not resigned Draper (or given him less money, or term). Oh well. No roster in any sport has ever been perfect. Unless you can point out some example that would make us a notably better team without Draper's contract, then it's pointless to complain about it. But I don't think you can get a difference-maker with his salary. At best you're looking at a marginal improvement in the bottom lines. Wow.

Draper has been a valuable member of this franchise for many years, we wouldn't be that much better off without him, so why complain? It's not like we spent $5.6M on a FA goalie whose resume was basically one good 13 game stretch (and we're now risking our reputation by ungraciously disposing of him).


#2028149 Penguins sign Arron Asham

Posted by Buppy on 21 August 2010 - 08:16 PM

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Sorry, I don't normally do the grammar cop thing, but I'm pretty sure there's only 136 h's in hysterical laughter. I wouldn't say anything, but I think the error really detracts from your point.


#2028075 Penguins sign Arron Asham

Posted by Buppy on 21 August 2010 - 03:07 PM

I agree. Asham would've been a nice little addition and for cheap.

...

But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum.

...

Do you really think taking Asham instead of Modano would make this team any better? Talking about it is one thing. Saying it sucks and is worse than Williams is another. Even at the most optimistic, you can't possibly consider Asham anything other than a lateral move at this point. And that's only if you consider his fighting ability to be valuable.

Since when has a solid 3rd line center been someone who can't check and has never been known as a great defensive forward?

I know we have other forwards that can play defense, but it'd be nice to have a 3rd line with more than one defensive forward. Modano will be asked to change his whole mindset around and take a complete back seat on this team in a role he's not all that familiar with.

It might work or it may not. Don't know why everyone thinks it'll be a success without reservations. You do realize that he's not a star anymore?

Secondary scoring is what Modano's role will be, same as it was last year in Dallas. (And he'd been transitioning to that role for a couple years prior.) He's not expected to be a star. He was successful on the third line with crap linemates in Dallas. That's why people think he can do just as well or better here with Hudler and Cleary.

Sure it would be nice to have a defensive forward centering the third line. It would be nice to have a team full of Selke candidates who would also compete for the Art Ross. But we don't need it. A third line doesn't have to be a checking line. The other three lines are all capable of playing excellent defense. Besides, the one thing you keep ignoring is that Asham isn't any better than Modano defensively. He's never been known for his defense either. He's never really been a feature on any PK. He's not even that prolific of a hitter. If you're so concerned about defense, why would you want Asham over Miller? Miller is much younger than Asham (something you also seem to value), has similar offensive ability (and maybe some untapped potential), hits just as much, and is far better defensively. Yet you'd take Asham. What is it Asham does that Miller doesn't? Oh, but that's not why you want Asham...

I agree that our third line would be good enough without Modano, but it's also better with him. And I believe that improvement is much better then we'd get from Asham's mediocre fighting skills. Our third and fourth lines are better and harder to play against with Modano than they would be with Asham.


#2027876 Penguins sign Arron Asham

Posted by Buppy on 20 August 2010 - 08:43 PM

I was waiting for that. And I just mentioned above what 4th liners we shouldn't have signed. There's nothing stupid about my complaint. You just don't see it my way that's all.

Draper was already signed. Nothing could have been done about it this year. Neither Maltby nor Downey will be regular members of this team. At most they will get contracts to play in GR.

We already have to get rid of one of Miller, Ritola, Eaves, Helm, or Abby. So to sign Asham, we'd have to lose a 2nd (or not sign Modano, who adds much more to the team). Then, to have him actually play, you have to take a 3rd out of the lineup.

Not saying Asham would make the team worse (unless you take him over Modano), but he wouldn't make the team any better either. That's why I think it's stupid. It's irrelevant.