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1. Leino was released in order to free up cap/roster for Franzen's return. 2. Holmstrom is a specialist that is the very best at what he does. 3. He can still score goals, 25 goals for under 2 million is an absolutely great deal. 4. You can not pay too much for a player like Lidstrom, especially when you aren't talking 8-10 million. Before last year I was in the same boat as you, I didn't think Homer had a place in the top 6 due to his skating ability. But he clearly proved me wrong last year on his way to being the second leading scorer. Lastly Steve Yzerman over Ken Holland? Damn I've probably replied to a troll. Oh well.

I will certainly never forget. http://espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/57110/this-day-in-sports-the-stanley-cup-returns-to-motor-city

Holmstrom is a warrior. The Demolition Man. And he is one of the keys to Detroit's success over the years. There is no one better at what he does. NO ONE>>ANYWHERE. Period. He deserves to retire a Wing.

sheesh... imagine if that never happened and Jiri never had the heart attack... that could have been the most epic blueline in NHL history... Early 2000's... just the top 4 alone that could have been... Lidstrom-Konstantinov Fischer-Chelios sheesh...

Sorry, just getting bored of all this awesome 4th line grinder and 6/7th D-Man stuff My link Gah, mod, can you edit my title, I got too type happy!

Wow what do you know.. Newfy made another one of these threads, surprising right? Okay I think this is the last one(we'll see) but here is another pretty good option for our gritty 4th line type guy. He's definitely not my first choice but he isn't an awful choice either. I think the biggest thing to look at here is the ice time. He can consistently put in 10 minutes a night without being a huge liability as well as put up 20 points roughly a season. He is definitely a tougher player, he had 13 fights one season but that number was down to 3 last year and 5 the year before. He's 31 which isn't too old and still play 9 or 10 minutes a night. He has very similar size to Abdelkader. He doesn't fight as much anymore but will step in for his team and definitely defend himself. He is very similar to Dallas Drake. Check this fight out. http://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/52186 or this one which shows he can hit pretty good and will answer the bell. http://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/92405 What do you guys think?

jroach17, youre an idiot. if didny notice, when homer is healthy, he is one of our best fore checkers. plus 25 plus goals and not counting all the ones he creates by sitting in front of other teams goalies... he should get paid more on any other team but this is Detroit and his home, so he takes less than he deserves

We probably have a better chance of getting him than some of the other names people have been throwing around. Namely because he's older, and doesn't fight that much anymore. Buffalo may think he's expendable, whereas guys like Clarkson or Nystrom are more likely to be re-signed, or to have multiple teams pursuing them. Mair would not be the guy I'd be looking for to join us. There's better options out there, even though I think it'll be harder to land those other options.

Pssh .875 is a lot for someone who can only score 51 goals. I mean, he's technically worth it, but he'll have to take a Red Wings' discount in order to show his loyalty.

Loss of words then. Loss of words today.

A tougher player can only rub off on the rest of the team. It helps to have a guy that can energize the team with some big hits and can stand up for players when need be. You want your team to have all the dimensions and be well rounded. I don't see how that player can hurt the team, unless he takes stupid penalties all the time. However, that depeneds on the particular player, so it's unfair to stereotype that against fighters in general. As for offensive production, once again, that depends on the player. It doesn't hurt to have 4th liners that can score, but if they're soft and don't know how to check (Williams), then they don't help on the 4th line no matter how much they can score. 4th line is for energy and hitting first and foremost. Scoring is secondary when it comes to choosing a tough guy. We don't need our enforcer to play on the top line after all.

Catch 22. Last time we had a couple of guys who were more than willing to drop the gloves was 2008, and you see how that worked out. Yet, having a pure fighter on this roster doesn't seem to help. Dallas Drake and Aaron Downey actually contributed in other ways than fight (Drake more than Downey) and we cannot forget how happy we all were after Lappy leveled Lidstrom and had to eat fists later on, right? Plus, Drake was a huge part of our Stanley Cup run. Brad May is no Aaron Downey and Todd Bertuzzi was no Dallas Drake, it's obvious what has been missing since 2008, but to what extent do we need a tough guy? We've seen that May barely helped us at all in the playoffs and we never really got that Dallas Drake type player (thank you salary cap) when we needed him. That being said, I do believe we need a player that is more than willing to drop them, yet be out there for 60-70 games instead of 15-20. He needs to be able to skate, hit and fight and do it well enough that people are looking twice before they run Datsyuk or Hudler. Admittedly I don't really know too much about the guys being mentioned around this place, outside of recent research on Exelby. If we could land someone like Drake (if they are out there) it would really help this team, but as for a pure fighter who is gonna sit for 27 minutes a night and only play 15 games, I think we can pass on that type player...

The sheer fact we are discussing trading Cleary in this Bert thread just baffles me and LGW never ceases to amaze with the amount of ass hats that sign in here everyday to say this. The man fought through a torn meniscus which everyone condemns him for and some think thats just sheer Cleary warrior stuff. I am of the latter thinking this guy would die for the Wings on the ice. You NEVER get rid of guys that carry this much respect in the locker room and you NEVER forget what this guy has done during both Cup runs. Clears will be back at 100% and for most thats still not enough but for me that gets me pumped. IF Bert will sign for the right price bring him back. If he retires get somebody else then, I am ok either way. But give up the Cleary bashing....

I don't know if using the team that got into the playoffs on a shootout in the last game of the season is the best approach at getting your point across. Especially when the player in question only played in 15 games, not half the season. Anyway, I would love to see a fighter on the Wings roster. But like others have said: I want to know that he can score when needed and wont be a liability.

First, I'll apologize if I'm wrong about the Euro-hate. Seems every post of yours lately speaks critically of Holland targeting 'small, skilled Euros'. I'm sure you can understand how that can be miscontrued. But Holland does not target 'small' players. He targets skilled players. More specifically, skilled two-way players. Big or small doesn't much matter. The main reason many of them are smaller is because that's all that's usually left in the later rounds. Guys like Franzen, Kopy, Ericsson, Kindl, etc. are all on the big side. Nor does Holland really target Euros. Just with the strength of our European scouts and our typical position in the draft, he feels we'll be more successful with those picks. And it's hard to argue with our track record. Also, Pavelski is exactly the type of player that Holland does typically target. Just one that we happened to miss out on. Since he doesn't fit your argument, it really just looks like you're cherry-picking to fuel some anti-Euro agenda. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it comes off to me. Furthermore, I think you're confusing Holland saying he wants to add some grit and/or size with a desire to add all grit and/or size. And also cherry-picking again to overlook cases where he has picked up gritty players. Bertuzzi and May this year. Abdelkader, Stuart, Downey, Drake (not big, but gritty), Shawn Matthias, Nick Oslund, Julien Cuyer, Brian Lashoff, Landon Ferraro (like Drake, not very big, but fiesty). I'm sure there's more.

Do you even have any idea who those people are? You say we shouldn't draft small, skilled players, then say we made a mistake passing up Pavelski...a small (medium anyway), skilled player. For the record, Blom is similar size and Kollar is bigger (though not borderline obese like Buffy). I know you're a staunch Euro hater, but to pick out a couple late round picks that happened to be successful for other teams is a retarded stretch. Completely ignoring the other hundred or so players that would fit your mold who also never made it to the NHL. Man, if only we'd picked Vince Malts and Chris Hartsburg instead of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. We've had a lot of success in Pav, Hank, Fischer, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Helm, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, and now we should see Ritola and Kindl. Kopecky, Fleischman, Meech, and Quincey were also drafted by Holland. We also have a few decent prospects still in the system. But you want to cry that we don't hit home runs with every 4th round and later pick. You realize that on average only about 12% of players picked in the third round or later play more than a few NHL games. 25% or so for the 2nd round, 65% for the first round. The Wings have had 8 (possibly 9) out of 63 3rd round or later picks from 1998-2006 become regular NHLers. 5 of the 11 2nd rounders have made it (and 4 of those 11 were picked later than 60th, so really 3rd rounders), 1 of 3 1st rounders (with Kindl now a second possiblilty). That's a pretty good record.

He lost against us, then said ''i i cant beat them join em!'' Then he lost with us and was like ''Chicago has a deep team'' and i hope he gets f***ed over again, joins a team to win the cup at the age of 40, loses, retires, and lives his life knowing he is a loser. Picture how good this will look, hossa losing again, him sitting on the ice, wondering what went wrong, this time he wll probably ball his eyes out

Yeah, whoever they get, they need someone similar to Lilja, but ideally nastier and more physical around his own net. Lillypads is big, but we need a guy who will punish players around the Detroit crease. right now no one in the Wings lineup does that.

Rob Blake.

Yikes. Then you're 100% right. We don't need the worst team in the league's cast offs.

Well, let's see... Three Stanley Cups, Conn Smythe award, NHL All-Rookie team, Lester B. Pearson award, Selke Trophy, Masterton Trophy, Lester Patrick Trophy, 9 time NHL All Star, 692 goals, 1063 assists, and is the longest serving team captain in NHL history. Vs. Signing one of our pro scouts, and asking to speak to our "capologist". That's it. Break out the torches and pitchforks.

Dude espn always talks about how no one ever cares about hockey, yet they've overcovered the entire NBA playoffs like everyone cares about the NBA. I don't think that many people in this country care about the NBA.

Unsurprising. Pittsburgh is not a big market. Amongst other things, this makes very silly Bettman's concerted attempts to push the team.

Leino, i don't have any judgements on what type of person leino is in the real world, but hossa jumping ship so many times pisses me off flyers can definately beat the shark, richards,carter,briere,gagne, have tones of heart, and the flyer do have depth and play hard. They never give up, its gonna be about who wants it the most. Hossa needs to have ice in his veins, something that he didnt have against pittsburgh. Its like he cudnt back stab is old team for some reason, ***.

2008 - "I wonder what it would be like to play with those guys..." 2009 - "Chicago is a hot, up and coming team...." 2010 - "Hey, I'd love to be your wingman next season." to