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Are you ashamed of your team if they lose? Why not put the flags on your car either way.

esteef

It boggles my mind to see Red Wings fans who still think enforcers are needed. For pretty much the past 20 years, the Wings have been at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors (dead last every year since the lockout) and still been the most successful team in the league. Even allowing that fighting is a valuable ability for a team to have, it is painfully obvious that the lack of it can be compensated for in other areas. Instead, the pro-enforcer crowd just overstates the value of whatever 'enforcer' we've had in the past, even though they probably spent the whole year complaining about how soft we were. People talk about the 96-98 teams like they were some great monument to team toughness, but the reality is they still rarely fought and were considered 'soft' compared to most of the league. McCarty was never so tough that he scared anyone. People who spent all of 08 whining about how soft we were now talk about Drake like he was one of the great all-time fighters. This year will likely be no different than any other. We'll have a handful of fights. People will cry about how soft we are, blame every minor injury on our lack of fighters. If we aren't successful it will be because we weren't tough enough. But if we happen to win a Cup, it will be because of great enforcing from Bert and Abby or whoever happens to have a couple fights during the year. The simple fact is that any deficiency can be overcome by enough strength in other areas. A strong defense can make up for a weaker offense or sub-par goaltending. A strong offense can offset a less than stellar defense. Great depth can overcome injuries or below average play from your stars. Dominant stars can compensate for a lack of depth. There isn't any one thing that is an absolute must have. It's the general level of team talent, coaching and system, great effort, and a bit of luck that wins Cups. We have the talent, coaching, and system, despite any specific weaknesses we might have. All we really need now is the effort and luck.

Has anyone else noticed how many people on other sites and TSN's Your Call put so much stock in Pre-Season?? It's absolutely hilarious how many people throw the Wings under the bus because they lose pre-season games, and some by more than 3 goals. Don't people know the whole point of NHL pre-season is to match your prospects up against the other teams top talent? That's why teams play back-to-back and have completely different line-ups each night. You need these games to give your prospects and indication of where they need to be at to play against other teams top talent on and NHL roster night in and night out. Just wanted to see what you guys think about the pre-season games and the outlandish comments people make about "teams chances of winning the cup" because of the exhibition performances.

at esteef!

I'm not anti-fighting, but this comment cracks me up almost as much as the entertainment value comment. If Holland wanted to put together a team like every other team... that's just what they would be, like every other team. Not many teams out there like the Wings and it suits me just fine. Wings don't copy the blueprint, they design it.

No. It's just something to freak out Gaborik if he's reading on this site.

I haven't had the opportunity to watch every preseason game, but from what I've seen Flip and Rafalski have far and away been the Wings' best players thus far. Flip is using his speed to great effect and actually shooting the puck, high and hard. Franzen and Bertuzzi to this point appear to just be tagging along; I can forgive Mule for being a little slow after the injury and Bert is probably just being Bert, though.

Anti-enforcer post alert. BTW, to add to your list, Downey was a horrible person who punched babies and strangled elderly women.

I'm not arguing that what you are stating is always false, but Brooks Orpik threw a cheapshot at Franzen a week ago and Downey was dressed that night. Sure, Bertuzzi defended Franzen after but having Downey around didn't cause Orpik to think twice. It's like the Laraque on Kronwall argument from last season - Laraque was going to stick his knee out regardless of the consequences to follow. Cheapshots are going to happen in the game.

8 pages on the release of Downey? He was a crappy hockey player and a mediocre enforcer on a puck possession team... We have no need for a player like him. I'm glad he is not wasting valuable ice time that a younger player could use.

Aaron Downey would kick our asses in a Boggle tournament.

I can agree with most of this- an enforcer isn't needed to win. However, this doesn't address the real issue. If the Wings had always carried an enforcer as the 13th forward- playing ~50 games a season- would the Wings have been any less successful?

I'd agree with that I think. It also depends on where your team was at last season, where they intend to be now and what kinds of players are in camp. The Leafs, for example, have a lot of new faces and a lot of guys coming off of years where they're looking to improve. You've got a group of forwards fighting for spots and it's a lot more wide open (in some ways) than a camp like the Wings where really only the 14th forward and 7th d spot are open (according to Holland and Babcock in the media). If you really look at the Wings camp the only spot that is really up for debate it's the 14th forward spot. No way Kindl isn't the 7th spot since he'd be exposed to waivers and certainly picked up. So the Wings are using camp as a means to tune up their roster players and look at younger guys who know they are GR bound. Where as the Leafs have many open spots. Their players are fighting not only for roster spots but the guarenteed roster players are fighting for depth position. At least that's one take on it

Aaron came to camp with a great attitude and worked hard. But one twist of fate and it's all for naught. It was great to see you again, Aaron, and thanks for the hugs. Good luck and good journeys.

I had posted this in the training camp thread. Holland also mentioned two things in regards to the vets and Draper. One, he made the point of saying, (me paraphrasing) "Why do we keep the older guys around? Well, we keep them on the team, and every 4 years or so we're driving down Woodward, and they're usually in a convertible somewhere down the line having gotten us there." He also mentioned that during one of the Phoenix games last season, Helm had lost a face off that resulted in a game winning goal, and at practice the next day, who was it out on the ice with Helm, practicing all the "strategies" for winning a face-off? Draper, the "player at the top of the league the previous year in face-offs won." Like it or not, Holland likes his cocktail of veteran and younger players and knows the fine line he walks in regards to bringing new players up in a timely fashion but also getting the most value (in his eyes) out of the experienced players too.

That's a shame. An absolute class act, good luck with everything Downs.

I can point out a lot of providers who say "unlimited" bandwidth, but when push comes to shove, they will not allow you to push that much. Residential broadband providers and hosted solutions may say "unlimited" but when you start pushing a lot through the provider, you will find your account suspended or canceled. True unlimited bandwidth costs are astronomical. If you knew the industry and how shared hosting works, you would understand that. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I know how the industry works and know companies that have lost hosting privileges because of excessive bandwidth when the provider false advertises, and you can find a lot of providers who say unlimited.

I love the "entertainment value" argument. Talk about f***in' hilarious! The Wings are super deep every year to the point that they have to let good players leave yet we reserve spots on the team for Downey and May type players just for "entertainment". This bulls*** gets funnier every time it's argued about! esteef

Good luck getting unlimited when you have thousands of users pushing that kind of bandwidth. I am also in the online industry, but I contract on the ISP side, and I am smart enough to know that those prices are not accurate. Providers like netelligent oversell their bandwidth all the time. They will not support thousands of users streaming video. If you think they will, then you are dreaming.

You're arguing that the team needs a player like Downey. People are disagreeing.

Nice to resort to petty insults. I won't be able to sleep. Holland is a great GM, I trust that he knows what's best. I don't think the Red Wings are going to suck because they don't have a player that plays 3 minutes a night and punches people.

I would say the best thing about Callahans fighting is his ability to hang with guys that are several inches taller than him. He goes with some big guys, and often comes out with the win. Think of the 08-09 Carcillo, or Domi.

Welcome to another year of cheapshots on Franzen, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. The Brooks Orpik hit is only the beginning of what we're gonna see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsdXmYGFBcU&feature=related