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I don't know. The swiping of both Chris Stewart AND Kevin Shattenkirk by St Louis from Colorado has to be another pretty big bit of evidence of grand larceny. To STL: Stewart, Shattenkirk, 2nd rounder to COL: E Johnson (bust), McClement (career 3rd/4th liner), and a 1st But getting anything more than a used bag of pucks and a lukewarm beer for Lebderp is a win.

Just thought we'd have a fun offseason thread with not much going on right now. I'm looking at many factors when compiling this list, such as: longevity, level of play, stats relative to the era, individual accolades and playoff numbers. I narrowed it down to three players because I thought that would generate the most debate and not get too complicated. At the end of the day (like everything else) this is still highly subjective, but I honestly tried to be as objective as possible. Avalanche/Nordiques 1. Sakic 2. Roy 3. Forsberg Blackhawks 1. Mikita 2. Hull 3. Esposito Blue Jackets 1. Nash 2. Vyborny 3. Mason Blues 1. Hull 2. MacInnis 3. Federko Bruins 1. Orr 2. Bourque 3. Esposito Canadiens 1. Richard 2. Beliveau 3. Lafleur Canucks 1. Bure 2. Naslund 3. Linden Capitals 1. Ovechkin 2. Bondra 3. Gartner Coyotes/Jets 1. Hawerchuk 2. Steen 3. Doan Devils 1. Brodeur 2. Stevens 3. Elias Ducks 1. Selanne 2. Kariya 3. Niedermayer Flames 1. Iginla 2. MacInnis 3. Fleury Flyers 1. Clarke 2. Parent 3. Lindros Hurricanes/Whalers 1. Francis 2. Staal 3. Brind’Amour Islanders 1. Trottier 2. Potvin 3. Bossy Jets/Thrashers 1. Kovalchuk 2. Hossa 3. Kozlov Kings 1. Gretzky 2. Dionne 3. Robitaille Leafs 1. Conacher 2. Apps 3. Mahovlich Lightning 1. St. Louis 2. Lecavalier 3. Richards Oilers 1. Gretzky 2. Messier 3. Coffey Panthers 1. Jokinen 2. Bure 3. Vanbiesbrouck Penguins 1. Lemieux 2. Jagr 3. Crosby Predators 1. Timonen 2. Vokoun 3. Weber Rangers 1. Leetch 2. Gilbert 3. Bathgate Red Wings 1. Howe 2. Lidstrom 3. Yzerman Sabres 1. Hasek 2. Perreault 3. Martin Senators 1. Alfredsson 2. Redden 3. Heatley Sharks 1. Marleau 2. Nabokov 3. Thornton Stars/North Stars 1. Modano 2. Zubov 3. Broten Wild 1. Gaborik 2. Backstrom 3. Koivu

I don't get it either most of the time. I gave it a plus to help even it back out. Don't know why it would've gotten negged unless Lebda is a member here.

Look out, Bruins, Caps, Flyers and Penguins, here comes Franson and Lombardi!

I am genuinely shocked that someone can defend this company and not be a part of it. The only times I have ever encountered it in the past is when one has someone in their life deeply involved in Amway that they can't bring themselves to criticize or when it's a former-Amwayer trying to justify their wasted time and money. Otherwise, it seems next to impossible to defend Amway. I just do not understand at all how we can somehow justify Amway's sleazy business because the Devos family is charitable and from Michigan. I just don't care, because I know how they made their money! And I don't care that they're not a pyramid scheme. Pyramid scheme. Multi-level marketing. All the same when it comes to what Amway does to people's lives. They were "bodysnatchers" when they were based on a pyramid scheme and they're "bodysnatchers" now that they're based on multi-level marketing. I personally do not want to constantly be reminded of the many close friends that have had their lives devastated on so many levels by the disgusting cult of Amway while I watch the team I've loved since I can remember with the little bit of free time I have. Amway is literally one of the only words in this world that just instantly incites anger in me upon hearing the name. I'm not trying to single anyone out here or be critical, but I don't think anyone who's defending Amway has really seen how ugly it can get. I don't think they know people who have lost loads of money, countless friends and severed relationships with family. I really do not believe that they've dealt with people in situations like these that I have unfortunately dealt with numerous times. I don't think they know people who worked over 80 hours a week to make just enough money to buy their Amway/Quixstar products and books. All the while, bear in mind, these are at real jobs. They're not making any money at Amway. "Yet," they would say at best in acknowledging this simple fact. "I'm making an investment in my future because I want what's best for me and my family. You don't understand. You're ignorant and have no ambition." Heard variations on that too many times. Worse though, I don't think any Amway defender has dealt with people who no longer will speak to their parents, siblings and friends because their new Amway family says to cut anyone or anything out of their life that questions or speaks negatively about Amway and their business. I've seen this way too many times, and it's just plain sad for all of those affected. It's like losing someone to a cult. No, it is losing someone to a cult. And all the while usually the family in particular is just trying to help stop the blatantly-obvious financial bleeding that's taking place. They're just doing the simple math; tons of money going out, no money coming in, countless hours spent working. Simple stuff for most people; tougher for people trapped in a cult. Again, I'm planning on calling and writing to the Red Wings to express my distaste. I would recommend that the many here, seemingly the vast majority, who are upset over this news do the same.

Well stated. If they want to support charities with their money, more power to them. Some are ones I don't support; some are ones I do. Some are ones I've never heard of. Either way, it's their money. The company, on the other hand, uses high-pressure tactics and breaks its people down to get money from them. To give you an example of what I'm talking about, let me tell you about a conversation between my former roommate and her mother, who was generally a very normal person. I had asked her about the "system" she was following. I knew it was making her miserable and costing her money that she didn't have. She got upset (and she's usually calm and level-headed) and said she wasn't allowed to talk about it. Only her father and brother-in-law could. So her father and mother came over- dad in a suit and tie, mom in a dress, and my roommate changed into a nice blouse and skirt. She had been cleaning all day. I felt underdressed, but I sat through the meeting. I was scared away by the pressure, but said I'd think about it because her dad just wouldn't take no for an answer. Then her mother took her upstairs and ripped her a new ******* because she had ruined everything by not following the system. Their family would be in financial ruin because of her because she didn't follow the system. Her sister, who was her parents' sponsor would be angry with the parents for not getting me on board, and it was her fault for not following the system. My roommate was crying and asking what she did wrong. Her mother was upset because she had worn a blouse and skirt, but the program called for a dress. The whole thing was her fault. Later I tried to tell her that I had figured out why the system wouldn't work mathematically (which is the same reason a pyramid scheme wouldn't) and she told me I was not allowed to talk about anything from the meeting to her or anyone else or it would ruin her system and she would not be successful, nor would her family. These were normal people, but they had been completely brainwashed. When I hear Amway, I get a knot in my stomach and I get so angry I could just scream, even though this was almost 20 years ago. This is why I don't want the Wings associated with them, especially not as a presenting sponsor. As a regular sponsor, you just have your name on the boards or in the program or something. This is a full-blown commitment. The public statement said that the two have similar values (or goals, or whatever), which ties them together in ways I am not comfortable with. Obviously I'm not going to renounce my fanship, but I am just not comfortable with this arrangement at all.

there was nice full page tribute to wade belak in yesterdays tennessean written by preds player david legwand: <A href="http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/795012/belak-ad_1315641a.jpg">

A good look at the founder of our proud new sponsor and just a little snap shot of how he has given back to our community *Note, these numbers are only until 2005! Also, these are simple numbers. There is no media bias interjected in the report unlike the last post Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation 126 Ottawa Avenue N.W., Suite 500 Grand Rapids, MI 49503 Media Transparency Profile For years: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Total contributed: $ 222,782,656 Name Total Grand Action Foundation 18,500,000 Gospel Communications International 12,754,725 Blodgett Butterworth Health Care Foundation 11,121,050 National Constitution Center 10,099,000 Grand Valley University Foundation 9,435,000 Grand Rapids Christian School Association 9,408,147 Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church 8,900,000 Calvin College 8,614,300 Hope College 7,550,000 Grand Rapids Symphony 6,991,152 Holland Home 6,553,000 Prison Fellowship Ministries 6,025,000 Ada Christian School 5,155,000 Rehoboth Christian School 3,636,000 Bethany Christian Services 3,450,000 Focus on the Family 3,250,000 University of Central Florida Foundation 3,000,000 Lee University 3,000,000 University of Central Florida 2,500,000 Spanish River Church 2,500,000 Grand Rapids Art Museum 2,442,000 Potter's House 2,250,000 Evangelism Explosion International 2,245,000 DeVos Children's Hospital Foundation 2,057,000 Luis Palau Evangelistic Association 2,000,000 Helen DeVos Children's Hospital Foundation 1,708,000 Heritage Foundation, The 1,700,000 Northwood University 1,691,500 Calvin Theological Seminary 1,650,000 Lake Worth Christian School 1,625,450 Partners for Christian Development 1,525,462 Christian Reformed World Relief Committee 1,426,000 Christian Reformed Church N.A. 1,401,000 Gospel Films 1,250,000 Direct Selling Education Foundation 1,250,000 Haggai Institute 1,240,000 YMCA of Boca Raton 1,152,000 Intercollegiate Studies Institute, Inc. 1,125,000 United Network for Organ Sharing 1,125,000 Boy Scouts of America - Gerald R. Ford Council 1,115,000 LaGrave Avenue Christian Reformed Church 1,081,853 Crystal Cathedral Ministries 1,080,000 United Way - Heart of Florida 1,070,000 Van Andel Institute 1,050,000 Mount Vernon Estate and Gardens 1,000,000 American Red Cross of Central Florida 1,000,000 Russian American Christian University 1,000,000 Palm Beach Atlantic University 1,000,000 Children's Scholarship Fund 930,000 Christ Memorial Reformed Church 925,000 Northern Michigan University 920,000 Partners Worldwide 825,000 Western Theological Seminary 810,000 Inner City Christian Federation 800,000 United Way - Heart of West Michigan 800,000 Frederik Meijer Gardens 780,700 Orlando Magic Youth Foundation 775,038 Prelude Worldwide Ministries 750,000 Lee College 750,000 CrossRoads Prison Ministries 730,000 Pine Rest Foundation 659,650 Media Research Center, Inc. 600,000 University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 591,000 Mel Trotter Ministries 560,000 Family of Faith Church 555,000 Health Intervention Services 550,000 Caring House Project Foundation 500,000 Keystone Community Church 500,000 Mount Vernon Ladies Association of the Union 500,000 Mississippi Hurricane Recovery Fund 500,000 Friends of the Americas 480,000 Davenport University 475,000 American Symphony Orchestra League 475,000 Florida Sunshine Pops, Inc. 450,000 Christian Counseling Center 437,500 Ligonier Ministries 425,000 International Society for Ocean Monitoring and Research 410,000 Hope Network 404,720 Michigan Family Forum 385,000 Hope Network Foundation 377,174 Right to Life of Michigan Educational Fund 375,000 Primary Focus 350,000 Fort Lauderdale Christian School 350,000 Raymond F. Kravis Center for the Performing Arts, Inc. 334,975 American Heart Association - Michigan Affiliate, Inc. 325,000 Pregnancy Resource Center 325,000 Baxter Community Center 320,000 Junior Achievement of the Michigan Great Lakes, Inc. 310,500 Florida Philharmonic Orchestra 305,000 Salvation Army, Palm Beach County 300,000 International Aid 300,000 Hope Pregnancy Centers of Broward 300,000 West Michigan Christian Foundation 298,512 National Organization on Disability 275,000 Worldwide Christian Schools 270,000 Kent County Parks Foundation 269,700 YMCA of South Palm Beach County 255,000 Millennium Park Project 250,000 Ukrainian Center for Christian Cooperation 250,000 Rotary Club of Grand Rapids 250,000 Boy Scouts of America - Gulf Stream Council, Inc. 250,000 Public Museum Foundation of Grand Rapids 237,500 Bethesda Hospital Foundation 230,000 Christian Reformed World Missions 230,000 Madison Square Christian Reformed Church 215,300 Indian Trails Camp 215,000 Insight for Living 210,000 St. Petersburg Theological Seminary Foundation 200,000 St. Cecilia Music Society 195,000 Education Freedom Fund 182,500 Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies 180,000 VineBranch, Inc. 178,500 Gift of Life Foundation 175,000 Youth for Christ - Grand Rapids Area 175,000 Vantage Point Forum, Inc. 172,500 American Cancer Society - Great Lakes Division 170,000 Christian Learning Center 170,000 Clebe McClary Evangelistic Association 170,000 Campus Crusade for Christ 163,500 Bible League 162,634 Music Mission Kiev, Inc. 161,000 Wedgwood Christian Youth & Family Services 155,000 Russell Kirk Center for Cultural Renewal, The 150,000 Council for National Policy 150,000 Lumiere Medical Ministries, Inc. 150,000 House of Hope 150,000 Christian Reformed Home Missions 150,000 Saint Mary's Mercy Medical Center 150,000 West Michigan Center for Arts & Technology 150,000 Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame 150,000 Teach Michigan Education Fund 149,990 Grand Rapids Youth Commonwealth, Inc. 145,000 City Vision, Inc. 145,000 Alliance Defense Fund, Inc. 130,000 Grand Valley State University 129,000 Urban Youth Workers Institute 125,000 American Heart Association - Florida Affiliate, Inc. 120,000 Horatio Alger Association 120,000 Broadway Theatre Guild 120,000 Zuni Christian Mission School 120,000 Boys and Girls Club of Greater Holland 118,500 Grandville Avenue Arts and Humanities, Inc. 115,000 U.S. ENGLISH Foundation 113,000 Upledger Foundation 112,600 Young Life Greater Grand Rapids 110,000 Salvation Army 110,000 U.S. Sailing Foundation 110,000 Davenport University Foundation 105,000 Interlochen Center for the Arts 104,500 Affordable Medicines for Africa 102,000 Grand Rapids Baptist Schools 101,000 Ferguson Heartside Community Resource Center 100,000 Acton Institute For The Study of Religion and Liberty 100,000 Young Life - National Office 100,000 Michigan Military Air Land and Sea Museum 100,000 Crossroads Christian Communications 100,000 Life Net 21 100,000 Connect Michigan Alliance 100,000 Florida School Choice Fund, Inc. 100,000 Fuller Theological Seminary 100,000 Partnership for Learning 100,000 Geneva Camp & Retreat Center 100,000 Fringe Communications 100,000 Flannel 100,000 Hope Multinational Christian Fellowship 100,000 Grand Rapids Student Advancement Foundation 90,000 Mackinac Center for Public Policy 90,000 Opera Grand Rapids 81,000 YMCA Grand Rapids Metropolitan 80,000 Operation Smile 80,000 North American Choral Company 80,000 West Michigan Strategic Alliance 77,000 Grand Rapids Griffins Youth Foundation 75,000 Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services 75,000 Grand Rapids Ballet 75,000 Transplants Recipients International Organization 75,000 Leadership Institute 75,000 Faith, Inc. 70,000 Young Dads, Inc. 70,000 Foundation for Traditional Values 65,000 American Red Cross - Kent County Chapter 65,000 Rutherford Institute 65,000 International Society of Palm Beach, Inc. 65,000 Council of Michigan Foundations 60,000 Equipping Ministries International, Inc. 60,000 National Right to Read Foundation 60,000 CLC Network (Christian Learning Center) 60,000 American Red Cross - Palm Beach County Chapter 60,000 Visions Teen Parent Foundation, Inc. 60,000 Join Our Youth, Inc. 60,000 Lighthouse Family Center 60,000 Words of HOPE 55,000 Worldwide Lab Improvement, Inc. 55,000 Traditional Values Coalition 54,276 Hospice of Michigan in Grand Rapids 53,000 In The Image 52,500 Pathfinder Resources 52,500 People for People, Inc. 51,000 Alliance for Children Everywhere 50,000 American Red Cross 50,000 Of the People Foundation 50,000 Holland Rescue Mission 50,000 Salvation Army-Grand Rapids 50,000 National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund 50,000 His Caring Place 50,000 Community Defense Counsel 50,000 Hispanic Center of Western Michigan 50,000 Nueva Esperanza, Inc. 50,000 En-Gedi Resource Center, Inc. 50,000 Children First America (Bentonville, AR) 50,000 Ave Maria School of Law 50,000 First Presbyterian Church 50,000 Alliance for School Choice, Inc. 50,000 Chaplain Services, Inc. 47,500 Joy of Music 46,000 Grand Rapids Medical Education and Research Center for Health Professions 45,000 Make A Wish Foundation, Grand Rapids 45,000 American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research 40,000 Christian Schools International 40,000 Boys & Girls Club of Holland 40,000 Kids Hope USA 40,000 Aquinas College 40,000 Choices for Children 37,900 American Red Cross - West Central Michigan 35,000 Back to God Hour 35,000 High Frontier 35,000 John Stott Ministries 34,000 Kent County Literacy Council 32,500 Meet Grand Rapids 31,000 Foundation for the Advancement of Cardiac Therapies 30,000 United Way - Palm Beach County 30,000 Grand Rapids Children's Museum 30,000 Guideposts Publications 30,000 United Way - West Palm Beach 30,000 Building Block Inc. 30,000 New Hope Church 30,000 Zuni Christian Reformed Church 30,000 Noorthoek Academy 28,650 American Cancer Society - Palm Beach 27,500 Plan International USA 26,328 Visiting Nurse Association of West Michigan 25,200 Organ Transplant Fund, Inc. 25,000 Michigan's West Coast 25,000 Plymouth Rock Foundation 25,000 James Madison Foundation, The 25,000 Southeastern Legal Foundation, Inc. 25,000 School to Career Progressions 25,000 First Presbyterian Church (Harbor Springs, MI) 25,000 Second Harvest Gleaners Food Bank 25,000 Stephen's Children Foundation 25,000 Free Congress Research and Education Foundation, Inc. 25,000 Orlando Regional Healthcare Foundation 25,000 National Foundation for Transplants, Inc. 25,000 Cape Eleuthera Foundation 25,000 Catholic Social Services 25,000 Evergreen Commons 20,000 National Kidney Foundation of Michigan 20,000 Orlando Museum of Art, Inc. 20,000 Toys for Tots 20,000 International Urban Associates 20,000 Youth for Christ of Palm Beach County 20,000 Leukemia and Lymphoma Society 20,000 University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center 20,000 Home Repair Services of Kent County 20,000 Christian Foundation Center of America 20,000 Shepherds of Independence 20,000 Roosevelt Park Ministries 19,000 Children's Educational Opportunity (CEO) Foundation America 15,000 National Kidney Foundation of Florida, Inc. 15,000 Chamber Choir of Grand Rapids 15,000 Grand Rapids Area Medical Education & Research Center for Health Professions 15,000 Transplantation Society of Michigan 15,000 Restorers, Inc. 15,000 Homecor 14,000 First United Methodist Church (Grand Rapids, MI) 13,600 Christ's Community Christian Church 12,500 Arthritis Foundation, West Michigan Region 12,000 WXEL - Barry Telecommunications, Inc. 11,000 Coalition for the Homeless of Central Florida 10,000 Gerald R. Ford Foundation 10,000 Association for Christian Foundations 10,000 Hospital Chaplaincy Service 10,000 Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, Inc. 10,000 Florida Hospital Foundation 10,000 National Kidney Foundation 10,000 Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, Inc. 10,000 Guiding Light Mission, Inc. 10,000 Florida House Washington DC, Inc. 10,000 Girl Scouts of Michigan Trails 10,000 J.C. & Frankie Watts Foundation, The 10,000 Holland Christian Schools 10,000 Alzheimer's Community Care 10,000 Michigan Community Blood Centers 10,000 University of Michigan Medical Center 10,000 Conservation International Foundation 10,000 Faith Baptist Bible College and Theological Seminary 10,000 Greater Houston Community Foundation 10,000 Billy Graham Evangelistic Association 10,000 Luke Society 8,000 Community Foundation of the Holland/Zeeland Area 7,500 Public Museum of Grand Rapids 7,500 Aspen Music Festival and School 7,500 Michigan Self Help for Hard of Hearing People 7,500 Patrons of the Arts in the Vatican Museums 7,000 Grand Rapids American Guild of Organists 7,000 Center for New Black Leadership 6,000 Cystic Fibrosis Foundation Headquarters 6,000 Degage Ministries 5,500 Northern Michigan Hospital Foundation 5,500 Capital Research Center 5,000 Corporation for Maintaining Editorial Diversity in America 5,000 Holland Christian Education Society 5,000 Ada Historical Society 5,000 Washington Campus, The 5,000 Grand Rapids Community Foundation 5,000 Reformed Bible College 5,000 Matthew 28 18-20 Charitable Trust 5,000 Lamont Christian School 5,000 FreedomWorks Foundation 5,000 Christian Performing Artists' Fellowship 5,000 Reformed Ecumenical Council 5,000 World Affairs Council of Western Michigan 5,000 Jewish National Fund 5,000 Family Life Center 5,000 Juvenile Diabetes Foundation International of Palm Beach 5,000 Latino Leadership Foundation 5,000 American Cancer Society - Great Lakes Division, Inc. 5,000 Martin Luther King Jr National Memorial Project 5,000 Alamo Resource Conservation and Development Area, Inc. 5,000 Bibles for Mexico 5,000 Blanton-Peale Institute 5,000 Cystic Fibrosis Foundation-Orlando Regional Office 5,000 Dwelling Place, The 5,000 Alzheimer's Association 5,000 Youth Orchestra of Palm Beach County, Inc. 5,000 Cornerstone Foundation 5,000 Place of Refuge 4,320 Rotary Foundation of Rotary International 4,000 Sons of Italy Foundation 3,500 Children's Home Society of Florida 2,500 Palm Beach Community College 2,500 Judicial Watch 2,500 Crooked Tree Arts Council, Inc. 2,000 Silent Observer 1,750 Grand Rapids Central High School 1,500 Close Up Foundation 1,300 Barnabas Ministries, Inc. 1,000 American Water Ski Association 1,000 Camp Roger 1,000 Lowell Area School 1,000 Western Michigan Teen Challenge 1,000 Little Traverse Conservancy 1,000 Dave Dravecky's Outreach of Hope 1,000 Tobacco Free Partners 1,000 Best Friends Foundation 1,000 Snowmass-Wildcat Firefighters Association 1,000 Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, Illinois Chapter 1,000 Enduring Freedom KIA Fund 1,000 Dream for Africa 1,000 Oviedo High School Band Booster Association, Inc. 1,000 Points of Light 1,000 Glen Lake Community Reformed Church 1,000 Westminster Academy 1,000 United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation 1,000 Dwelling Place of Grand Rapids 1,000 Kiwanis Foundation of Harbor Springs 1,000 Young America's Foundation-Santa Barbara 1,000 Spectrum Health 500 Forest Hills Central High School 500 Arizona Memorial Museum Association 500 Tri-Unity Christian School 500 Christ Child Society of Northern Michigan 500 Ocean Reef Chapel Foundation, Inc. 500 Mountain Christian Church 500 Ataxia Telanglectasia Children's Project, Inc. 500 Northwest Michigan Human Services Agency, Inc. 400 Women's Resource Center 200 Pacific Legal Foundation 100 Printer friendly http://old.mediatransparency.org/recipientsoffunder.php?funderID=17 Those HEATHENS!!! Burn them at the stake!! No seriously - they do a lot. Good for them... Good for them.

I like the rolls of fat on the back of his neck. Sexy.

This whole re-draft is so pointless and shows how bored hockey writers are at this time of the year.

As Brett Hull used to say, "I am in shape. Round is a shape."

Yup, I sat through the Amway presentation once because I didn't know what was coming. My roommate's parents had gotten her into it and she had to bring in so many new prospects according to the "system" or she wasn't following it. I said I'd give it a listen, just to help her out. Freaky. I'm really not keen on the Red Wings being associated with them, but I guess everyone needs a cash cow. Now if they can get 5 other teams to agree to the branding, and those teams get 5 teams...

What a great idea for a thread! I can tell the OP is really knowledgeable about hockey history. I agree with pretty much the whole list. Meh, I guess no one wants to discuss NHL history on a holiday.

this. In addition, Getzlaf is the only player in this league I would trade any current Wing straight up without any hesistation. I would even add a bit trading Zetterberg for Getzlaf. Perry on the other hand is just complementary... Just like Clarke to Gilmore.

Martyr...You seem to honestly beleive in Amway an support it 100%. Your choice, obviously. BUT, that fact that you are literally the only person on this entire thread that feels that way has to tell you something. Every single person that has posted about this topic here is 100% against Amway sponsoring the Wings, and as pointed out multiple times, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Wings having corporate sponsership, but the fact that they chose Amway. Amway is a scam pyramid sceme. That is an undisputed FACT. They are predatory scumbags. FACT. The fact that they are now aligned with the most respected team in the NHL, if not one of the most respected teams in all professional sports, quite literally disgusts most of us to our very core. This is like making a deal with the devil...quite literally. My Escobar analogy earlier in the thread that you hated and took offense to so much was 100% accurate, regardless of how you personally feel about it. Its a deal with the devil. And the fact the the Wings are not even close to being in financial trouble makes it all the worse. This is Tom, money hungry scumbag f***, Wilsons baby. Almost all Detroit Red Wings fans absolutely HATE him for making this deal.

The problem is martyr, it's not Red Wings sponsored by the Devos family. It is Amway; a crooked company that has came under scrutiny by our government and has broken peoples lives based on false promises and ripping people off in cult like fashion. The Devos family does great things for the state of Michigan but the Amway company does not deserve to be our sponsor plain and simple.

In case you haven't been paying attention...It is now socially acceptable to be fat. THAT is the real problem.

It is NOT ok to be fat. It is unhealthy. It has nothing to do with bias. If you are fat you are not healthy and in 99% of the cases it is preventable. None of the things you mentioned above are preventable. Your comparison is not valid. This is exactly the problem. Society wants to compare being fat with a disability. Granted that there are a small % of people that because of medical reasons are pre-destined to be fat but they are in a small minority. Most of the people just don't eat right and exercise enough and that should be discouraged.

Right Right - I see what you did there. Pablo Escobar murdered innocent people and smuggled narcotics that leveled communities. Dick Devos started a business that sells cleaning products, nutritional products and cosmetics. I bet....I bet you cry fowl when people used propoganda to compare Obama to Hitler for his socialistic opinions. But hey - this is all just for fun, right? I don't want to be condescending because of your misunderstanding of what a ponzi scheme is. That is because I'm sure that 90% of the people on this forum don't know what a ponzi scheme is and how it compares to a pyramid scheme. A ponzi scheme is, in recent current events, what Bernie Madoff went to jail for. To put it simply it is this: You convince a bunch of people to give you $50 billion dollars to invest. You only give millions back shown as investment profits to those people - you keep the rest. Your initial investors believe that their original principal of $50 billion is still safe and secure but really, you've spent them on fancy things like big boats, houses and silk underwear. You survive because your success keeps bringing in new investors with more and more money because even if an investor wants to take out all of their money out, you can survive the blow because others pay even more into the system. So you see - it is dead wrong to even accuse Amway of being a ponzi scheme because they are completely unrelated. I am trying to be nice to you, but please understand that when people do say the things you have said it does upset me because it clearly means that you have no basic understanding of the accusations you have made. You have only followed the lead of another ignorant person who blathers wreckless information into the dark. I only debate on things that I know I know. All too often people make up their minds on a couple of headlines they have seen in passing with no real interest to look into unbiased reporting. It almost isn't their fault, though, as most people don't even know where to access unbiased reporting! But I digress. Anyway, if you're also wondering how Amway exists as an accused pyramid scheme (I'm assuming that you already know that a pyramid scheme is illegal) it is because, by definition, they are also not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme would require that people are paid to recruit others soley. (Amway people do recruit hard as hell which is where people draw comparisons to cult like groups) However, you do actually have to SELL PRODUCTS in order to ever make money from Amway. Also, Amway buys back excess inventory from its personal distributors. So ya, I'm sure some people probably think that I must be a part of Amway or something by now. I will tell you this: I HAVE experienced about 3 or 4 meetings where I was trying to be recruited. I did not enjoy the experience and I have stayed far away ever since. However, I simply cannot deny the fact that, though this particular experience was not to my liking, it is NOT MY PLACE to judge others on the decisions that have apparently worked out for them. The company is obviously successful as I believe they are somewhere in the top 30 largest privately owned businesses according to Forbes. Have people invested in the business and came out as losers? With any venture that comes with risk, I bet there have been! But thats why America is America - it is a personal choice for someone to venture into this opportunity. And lest not forget, Amway does provide an opportunity. There will always be winners and losers. The Winners from Amway were probably losers somewhere else and they had to learn a little more about life before they reached success. The losers - my guess is they probably learned something along the way and will eventually find something that works for them. Either way, both groups of people will probably turn out just fine. Have a fabulous day and a swell tomorrow!

Auto Erotic asphyxiation....what a way to go. RIP Wade, you were always a fan favorite.

I know multiple people that do Amway. Some have made a ton of money, some havent. I also know people that have gone through info meetings, such as myself. Lets make one thing clear - your friends and her family are nut jobs. NOT the company. The company didn't yell at her for not wearing a dress. (I know there is no company rule about this, it was probably a personal rule laid out by the crazy family). I would LOVE to see how you are so uniquely smart that you of all people were able to mathematically solve how this multi-billion dollar company has actually made no money for people. Because apparently, they were able to dupe EVERYONE ELSE in this world to help generate billions and billions of dollars. Have you submitted your mathematical equation to the newspapers? You too could be rich! As I've said, I've been to the meetings multiple times and I agree - they aren't for me. But to say Amway is crooked because some INDEPENDENT proprietors do their job a little more high pressure than others makes you equally as nutty. Sales is high pressure. I don't care if you're selling Amway, Cutco knives, cars, electronics or magazine subscriptions. In order to survive, you can't just walk away every time you hear the word no. Sorry if you're too weak to stick to your guns just because someone is persistent. Again, that's just sales. It isn't illegal nor should it be. We all have choices to make.

I can't believe someone would neg' me for saying he was a fan favorite. Some sick f***s on this site.