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edit: nevermind, over it

It seems to me that "hype and expectations" are a very bad metric by which to assess the success/failure of young players. The pick is gone. The only thing that matters at this point is obtaining maximum return out of the player who is now in the system. In some cases that might mean getting a trade return while the player is still overvalued based on the hype!, but other than that it makes no difference where a player was "projected" to play. You turn them into the best player they can become, because that is what is best for the team. Draftees not reaching their projected potential is in most cases pure chaos and beyond that an issue with scouting/recruitment, not the individual. The only way a player can truly "bust", imo, is if they never make it to the NHL level - which I believe is a point only you are making ("30% chance"). This is the same argument people have about AA: "we thought he would be X and he's Y!" Who cares? You have Y player. Use him. If he's not useful, get rid of him. But until you do that's still a playing asset. (Players getting fat contracts based solely on hype! is the other possible negative outcome, but again that's an institutional issue, not a player issue.) (Edit: Also, player output at the ages of 18/19 is almost certainly not a reliable indicator of where they will be in 1, 3, 5, 8, etc. years.)

Much rather see the Blues w/ the cup than either of the other teams... though I want that 2nd and Nyquist back. Weird situation to find myself kinda rooting for the Sharks this year.

I think Zadina's struggles have less to do with age, though he does have maturing to do physically, and more to so with the fact that prior to this year he had only played 57 games of North American hockey. He came over from Europe, played in the Q where he dominated a bunch of kids who weren't on his level skill wise, but learned very little about playing "correctly" because the Q is a garbage league. His first real exposure to North American systems was this season, against a bunch of guys who are more physically developed and who know the NA game intuitively. So the learning curve was very steep. Reminds me a lot of Mantha, who also came from the Q and therefore had no idea how to play right. He struggled just as badly, and he was 20 instead of 18.

Also Pronman's ranking are out on the Athletic. This guy ranks his prospects purely on what he believes to be their absolute ceiling. 1. Hughes 2. Kakko 3. Turcotte 4. Byram 5. Caufield 6. Zegras 7. Cozens 8. Boldy 9. Broberg 10. Dach Is Podkolzin the most volatile prospect? One minute he's top 5 in the minds of the hockey world, the next he's approaching a high 2nd rounder.

Honestly, I think there's something to the idea that he could be one of those players. I've said as much a few times this season. The NHL is much tougher than the AHL, but what I saw from him in the AHL was a player who's really good at creating...but was playing with a lot of career AHLers who don't process the game the way he does. I still would've liked to have seen him put up more points, of course. But, yeah.

Either Zadina becomes Marian Hossa by game one of 2019/20 season or I'm gonna freakout and break stuff

I forget who said it, but I remember hearing on some podcast that Huds would show up to almost every game with a new chick on his arm and they were always gorgeous. Coulda been hookers, but still, Huds was lowkey the man.

It's pretty clear what Kip is saying. Which is that the Q is a weak league and Zadina was about as unprepared for the AHL as Mantha was. (How true those claims are is up for debate.) Hudler was a ray of sunshine and debauchery in an ocean of boring good bois. Hudler did nothing wrong. Free Hudler.

Saw this earlier. I'm becoming more and more interested in Zegras personally. I remember talk about it not being a top 2, but a top 3 with Podkolzin. Boy has he fallen. I feel like I haven't watched him play enough to formulate my own opinion on him, so with his recent lack of production and that whole thing about him being under contract for the next 2 years, it's pretty discouraging. Same.

Fair. My counterargument isn't that he's young and +/- is stupid. It's that he had a rough transition from the QMJHL to the AHL. He got shredded early on, but he made some adjustments and grew as a player and improved as the season went on. I think holding up the -17 as a serious red flag about his two-way prowess is misguided/dishonest. We've seen some young Wings' +/- ratings fluctuate wildly over the past few years. Did anyone expect Bertuzzi to finish this season at +11? I feel like we're just abandoning what we all know about the ins and outs and ups and downs of development. I feel like we're getting nerdy and leaning too heavily on numbers. I might be more swayed if I felt like people had really watched him this season -- often and very closely. There was a breakaway goal he scored late in the season. I vaguely remember a few of us talking about it on LGW.com. If memory serves, Mackel said Zadina was cherry-picking and that this is exactly the sort of thing he won't get away with at the NHL level. In fact, he was not cherry-picking. He didn't fly the zone early. He didn't start running until he saw that his team had full possession of the puck in their zone and that he'd be able to catch the men at the point flat-footed. He played it exactly the way he should've played it. Subtle things like that. I like that about him. If someone wants to put together a highlights package that shows all the ways Zadina is terrible defensively, I'd gladly watch it. It's not an excuse. And there's nothing I'd need to excuse, as I feel he produced pretty well for a teenaged AHL rookie. He spent a lot of time with mostly career AHLers (the Griffins' top six was basically career AHLers and Zadina) and I think it's possible that playing with more talented, more "skillsy" players might've resulted in better production, even if he was playing against much tougher competition (AHL versus NHL). What are we even debating here? This is all so dumb.

He's in the AHL because he was on loan from a Euro team. So, when you say Zadina's "not at all ahead of the curve," what you really mean is the players picked ahead of him are farther along. Which, I mean, sure. Yes. (Excluding Hayton.) I dunno, you do you, but I feel it's dishonest to go on about this kid like he's already a big disappointment and there's red flags all over the place. I haven't seen anyone present a compelling argument for Zadina being "not at all ahead of the curve" and a one-dimensional Pulkkinen retread. You literally said the notion that Zadina is a competent two-way winger couldn't be farther from the truth. That's a bold statement, one that doesn't line up with what I've seen and what most people have said about him. "But muh -17 rating." His pro career started out rough, like I said. But, for some reason, it feels like only three or four people here actually watched this player really closely this season and saw a player who got more comfortable as the season went on and ended up looking really good as a Wing (if only in a ridiculously small sample size). "He didn't do s*** in his nine games with the Wings," Mackel might say. But he did. He wasn't solid on every single shift, but man did he show some serious promise. Even production-wise it was promising: 3 points through 9 games, as a teenaged rookie, and he very easily could've potted a few more points. Look, I'm prepared for Zadina to be a bust...and I'm also prepared for him to become an elite NHLer. The reason I'm not hating on him is because I genuinely don't see any reason to be down on him. Am I disappointed that he didn't go straight to the NHL this season and put himself in the Calder conversation? Sure. I thought he was more NHL-ready than he actually was and that kind of stings. Am I going to gnash my teeth about it? No. I'm really not. I don't get why people are so down on him, especially when I get the distinct impression that the people who are most vocally down on him haven't actually seen much of him. Dude was picked 6th overall. I might be kinda-sorta-maybe-slightly troubled if we'd taken him 3rd overall, but we didn't. We took him right about where he probably should've been taken. Should we have taken Hughes or Bouchard instead? I dunno, maybe. I think that could be a worthwhile discussion in a few years.

I agree, CRL and mackel are on completely different levels. However, CRL did start out a lot closer to that same level (trolling joking or not). The ONLY reason any of this started was because people were calling Zadina a bust at 18/19 years old. We started debating where Zadina projects to be in the future (bust or not), and is now all that matters is where he is now (what he did this season). Most think Zadina had a good season given his age and level of experience. CRL and mackel think Zadina had a bad season because of his poor +/-... Most think Zadina has a bright future. CRL is "not doubting he could be the next Kucherov at 21". mackel still thinks he will be a bust...

No one asked who you'd take given the choice. Kotkaniemi amassed NHL points. Zadina amassed AHL points. Kotkaniemi was a higehr draft pick. Zadina was a lower one. One is literally higher than the other. Your personal opinion has no bearing. Kotkaniemi has way more value as a player at the current moment. Meh I think Zadina probably could've been taken at 9 just like Rasmussen He was 18 this season for all of less than two months. He's one of the oldest players in his draft class, which is the reason he's even in the AHL in the first place. His younger class mates drafted in the top 5 are already on their NHL teams contributing in middle six roles. Our boy is also in a middle six role... in the AHL, and is -17 on a playoff team. I agree he needs to work on some things, but I am not pleased by the amount he still needs to work on. He was advertised as a probable #3 pick who could step right on to a team and perform offensively and defensively. He was certainly not capable of either in his first year. I'm ok with this fact, but I'm certainly not thrilled by it. I think Zadina's offensive abilities are astute. But he was also on pace for -45 in his 9 game NHL debut. From what I've seen he's closer to Hudler than Hossa. I mean allow me to be frank and forthright, but I think this whole line of thinking is BS and counterproductive. Accusing people of trolling and calling folks dumb for having a dissenting opinion serves no one. I have been pretty forthright in this thread, and have presented a multitude of evidence and reasoning to back my opinion. Most of the counter argument still seems to boil down to "he young, you dumb troll". He is young, I'm not doubting he could be the next Kucherov at 21. But right now I believe I have legit concerns. Just like I had concerns about Mrazek and Smith. If ya'll wanna bury your heads and create an echo chamber where Zadina can do no wrong by all means go for it. Ill be in a separate thread critically analyzing the player on a real-time basis. My opinion of the player adapts with his performance. I think we should treat most players this way.

Zadina was only level 29 last year. He is now level 31 and picked up Shanahan's Shinpads. + 15 strength + 5 Stamina He will be good next year.

He played in the AHL as an 18-year-old, putting up 35 points in 59 games. Not sure how that doesn't qualify as "ahead of the curve." I disagree. He looked fine for a teenager. Had a rough start to his pro career, but by the end of the season I was fine with the way he was playing. He needs to work on some things, but so does everyone at 19 years old. I had serious concerns about Pulkkinen's game. I don't have the same concerns about Zadina's game. I was pleased with the way he played in his short stint with the Wings. He got better and better and by the end of the stint he looked like he belonged. Was making stuff happen, wasn't missing defensive assignments any more than any other Wing was. There were a couple games where I was laughing maniacally at some of the stuff he was doing.

Lazy already? You forgot Oliwer Kaski. Ok, well, it's an agreed contract, will sign after worlds.

You didn't want Hughes, that sounds like hindsight drafting to me. Also Dobson and Bouchard didn't exactly light up their junior leagues this past season and don't look NHL ready at all, why aren't they busts relative to their draft positions? You thought the Islanders won the draft, but Wahlstrom had a worse year than Zadina, in a worse league. Brett Hull and Mitch Marner are two extremely different players, neither of which I would've used to describe Zadina. What does this even mean?

GO BLUES!!!

I was there in person for game 7, never in my life had I felt so deflated as a sports fan. Having all the annoying penguins fans in my section certainly didn’t help either. Before those 2 finals Pittsburgh was actually my second fav team, I liked them since the early 90’s as that first cup win was the first season I really followed hockey. Hate them now.

If you snip long into the snipshow, the snipshow will snip back into you. F

RIP D-boss's D... he took one for America

Just what we need.