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Hockeytown0001

Do Maple Leaf fans deserve better?

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I love the overreaction from leafs nation signing an extension doesn't mean that a coach cannot be fired. For sure Nonis will include some buyout clauses in this.

Although I'm wondering what Carlyle has done after winning the cup with two HHOF defenders, really nor much..

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I love the overreaction from leafs nation signing an extension doesn't mean that a coach cannot be fired. For sure Nonis will include some buyout clauses in this. Although I'm wondering what Carlyle has done after winning the cup with two HHOF defenders, really nor much..

Agreed.

It's much - much easier to blame the coaching staff for their tumble in the standings when a significant portion of blame rests with the players under performing (fair amount of youth as well).

I'm hoping they turn it around for it's always good to see a Original 6 team do well.

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Jesus I hate the Toronto Maple Leafs. These dumb bastards don't know which end is up. If they'd just left Burke alone they wouldn't be in this mess and they're too dumb to know it. All he ever did was bring the entire nucleus of their team together...including Kessel, Lupul, Van Riemsdyk, Phaneuf. They were trending upward too, then they fire Burke and they've had two fantastically massive implosions in a row.

f*** the Maple Leafs!

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Was just browsing HFBoards, some Leafs fans seem to think that Babcock will be the next coach of the Leafs.

This stupid Damien Cox article made them really believe they might get Babcock what the hell is wrong with them ?

They are only getting Babcock, if we get Kessel, Phaneuf and Gardiner for Drew Miller and Johan Franzen.

Anyway, the players have to share the blame here too. The Leafs have an ownership problem, Rogers and Bell HATE each other I can't believe the court allowed them to co own such a storied franchise, that's unbelievable.

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Jesus I hate the Toronto Maple Leafs. These dumb bastards don't know which end is up. If they'd just left Burke alone they wouldn't be in this mess and they're too dumb to know it. All he ever did was bring the entire nucleus of their team together...including Kessel, Lupul, Van Riemsdyk, Phaneuf. They were trending upward too, then they fire Burke and they've had two fantastically massive implosions in a row.

f*** the Maple Leafs!

Don't forget he brought 'truculence' as well.

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Don't forget he brought 'truculence' as well.

Well, everybody knows my position on fighting...but having said that, if you're going to spectacularly disappoint your fan base each year the very least you can do is let them watch Orr and McLaren beat people up. So we'll call that a net positive for Burkie despite it's having exactly zero effect on winning games.

p.s. I also want to add that I'm in no way trying to make Burke into some super hero. He's a good GM, but not a great one. However, he did have them moving in the right direction and history has shown that he can put together a winner if left alone. Since giving the team to an inexperienced knuckledhead you've seen the results...and TOR can expect the same under Shanny considering he has ZERO front office experience was well.

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Jesus I hate the Toronto Maple Leafs. These dumb bastards don't know which end is up. If they'd just left Burke alone they wouldn't be in this mess and they're too dumb to know it. All he ever did was bring the entire nucleus of their team together...including Kessel, Lupul, Van Riemsdyk, Phaneuf. They were trending upward too, then they fire Burke and they've had two fantastically massive implosions in a row.

f*** the Maple Leafs!

What? This makes no sense whatsoever? This "mess" is of Burke's making. The players are Burke's, the coach is Burke's. The Leafs failed to make the playoffs season after season under Burke. The year he was fired, his team of players and his coach gave one of the most spectacular choke jobs of all time. So 7 (?) seasons of Burke's Leafs, 1 playoff appearance, 1 first round exit.

However, he did have them moving in the right direction and history has shown that he can put together a winner if left alone

In Vancouver he did nothing. In Anaheim, his patented strategy of throwing players at the wall and seeing who sticks, combined with the stars aligning (Niedermeyer falling into his lap, getting Beachamin a player he admitted he'd never heard of, Getzlaf and Perry on ELCs) for one season. The following season he continued to throw players at the wall throwing piles of money at the likes of Bertuzzi and Schneider and through being "left alone" started to dismantle one of the best post lockout teams.

And in Toronto he continued to do nothing. A huge bunch of trades, FA signings.....and the team is no better than they were 7 years ago.

But he likes fighters, and the Canadian media loves him, so he ends up with this massively over-blown reputation.

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What? This makes no sense whatsoever? This "mess" is of Burke's making. The players are Burke's, the coach is Burke's. The Leafs failed to make the playoffs season after season under Burke. The year he was fired, his team of players and his coach gave one of the most spectacular choke jobs of all time. So 7 (?) seasons of Burke's Leafs, 1 playoff appearance, 1 first round exit.

In Vancouver he did nothing. In Anaheim, his patented strategy of throwing players at the wall and seeing who sticks, combined with the stars aligning (Niedermeyer falling into his lap, getting Beachamin a player he admitted he'd never heard of, Getzlaf and Perry on ELCs) for one season. The following season he continued to throw players at the wall throwing piles of money at the likes of Bertuzzi and Schneider and through being "left alone" started to dismantle one of the best post lockout teams.

And in Toronto he continued to do nothing. A huge bunch of trades, FA signings.....and the team is no better than they were 7 years ago.

But he likes fighters, and the Canadian media loves him, so he ends up with this massively over-blown reputation.

Well there you have it folks, any idiot can do what Burke does. He's just a stupid, old, brainless, fart and all of his accomplishments across a long career were the product of pure unadulterated luck.

Just lucked his way into an NHL executive job. Lucked his way into a Stanely Cup. Lucked his way into an Olympic Silver. Luck, luck, luck.

We should all be so lucky.

Edited by kipwinger
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Well there you have it folks, any idiot can do what Burke does. He's just a stupid, old, brainless, fart and all of his accomplishments across a long career were the product of pure unadulterated luck.

Just lucked his way into an NHL executive job. Lucked his way into a Stanely Cup. Lucked his way into an Olympic Silver. Luck, luck, luck.

We should all be so lucky.

"All of his accomplishments"??? In 14 seasons as GM of Hartford, Vancouver, Anaheim and Toronto he failed to qualify for the playoffs 7 times! He failed to get past the 1st round another 4 times.

That means in 14 seasons as GM he has gotten past the 1st round just 3 times. Think about that, and not just the 07 Ducks. He's 3 for 16 if you include the last 2 Leafs seasons with his players and his coach.

As for his Olympic silver, thats worth about as much as Hollands golds ie not a lot

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"All of his accomplishments"??? In 14 seasons as GM of Hartford, Vancouver, Anaheim and Toronto he failed to qualify for the playoffs 7 times! He failed to get past the 1st round another 4 times.

That means in 14 seasons as GM he has gotten past the 1st round just 3 times. Think about that, and not just the 07 Ducks. He's 3 for 16 if you include the last 2 Leafs seasons with his players and his coach.

As for his Olympic silver, thats worth about as much as Hollands golds ie not a lot

I get it, you don't think Burke is any good. I honestly don't give a s*** about this debate. I'm not the guy's best friend or anything. I said he's good, not great. You disagree. Woowee.

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Well there you have it folks, any idiot can do what Burke does. He's just a stupid, old, brainless, fart and all of his accomplishments across a long career were the product of pure unadulterated luck.

Just lucked his way into an NHL executive job. Lucked his way into a Stanely Cup. Lucked his way into an Olympic Silver. Luck, luck, luck.

We should all be so lucky.

If Burke was so bad - how does he keep finding himself employment with an NHL franchise front office?

IMHO his only 'fault' that really stands out was his hiring of coach Wilson - oh and signing Komisarek to that horrendous deal.

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burke can draft. thats about it. lucky for him drafting is extremely important in the draft era. id hire him as a special assistant or scout in a heart beat

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Well, it looks like the Leafs are going with the "scorched Earth" approach.

Two weeks ago, the management team of the Toronto Maple Leafs met with several members of the Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment board on the 15th floor of the corporation’s head office at 50 Bay St.

These informal meetings had been ongoing since the start of the National Hockey League calendar. New Leafs president Brendan Shanahan was hired with a mandate to remake the team. From very early on, he’d

realized that if the club aspired to be a Stanley Cup contender, it required a major overhaul.

But he needed the evidence of the season to persuade his employers fully. After the Leafs’ recent slide out of contention, the club’s given him that.

Then he needed the board to endorse his vision of a barren short term in the interests of a competitive future. In that meeting, he got that as well.

Mr. Shanahan and his lieutenants have now finally received a broad mandate from ownership to scorch as much earth as they see fit in order to return the Leafs to contention, according to two sources familiar with that meeting. It will mean a new philosophy on building slowly through the draft and long-term projects, rather than quick fixes via trades for established players. It will mean at least three more years of pain for fans, and as many as five.

When you’re living in or looking on at the day-to-day chaos of Leafland, all you see are small, constant and usually inconsequential crises. It creates the disastrous habit of thinking the next game or the next month is all that matters. That tendency has repeatedly infected previous regimes, drawing them into terrible, short-term decision-making.

In hindsight, that’s what may make that meeting two weeks ago so consequential. It was the first time in a long while that everyone involved agreed hockey’s Rome could not be rebuilt in a day.

Currently, the team is sliding into a standings abyss. The roster lurches nightly between despair and befuddlement. After only a month on the job, the interim coach, Peter Horachek, appears days from blowing a gasket in public.

It may not feel like it right now, but this is a good thing. This, right here, may be the most realistically hopeful time to be a Toronto Maple Leafs fan in a generation.

From that perspective, the season could not have played out better.

Mr. Shanahan arrived never intending to fiddle with the roster. His predecessors had begun tinkering in small and large ways, nearly from the get-go.

Some had been given the same informal board approval to make sweeping changes (the presidents of MLSE clubs only require full board approval to fire coaches and general managers, and to substantially alter their budgets). Former general manager Brian Burke talked constantly about “a five-year plan.” But none had followed through. There is too much temptation in hockey’s most hysterical market to patch the hull right now, then set off to sail round the world. All those voyages were lost.

Instead, Mr. Shanahan and GM Dave Nonis put roughly the same team on the ice. They stuck with coach Randy Carlyle, long after he’d been compromised. The goal was to give the board a steady target. “This is what we have.” There were few significant injuries to significant players. For a time at least, stars such as Phil Kessel played as though they were stars. The offence was among the league’s best. The defence was intermittently awful, but adequate to needs. This was the Leafs being as good as they could be. And, just as Mr. Nonis and Mr. Shanahan had suspected, it was unsustainable. The wheels didn’t just fall off. They caromed through the windshield and sheared off the roof.

So, what now?

First, a new, intense focus on the draft. Everyone in the league talks a good game about drafting your way to success, but there are still more than a few who don’t really believe it. They prefer to trade, which brings instant gratification and, if it works, ends up making you look smarter.

This was the point of hiring former London Knights GM Mark Hunter as an executive. Most took it as a challenge to Mr. Nonis. Instead, Mr. Hunter brings something few top people in the NHL can claim – a deep and nuanced understanding of the best 14-, 15- and 16-year-old players in the world. Along with assistant GM Kyle Dubas, Mr. Hunter is here to mine the draft over the next three years.

Second, Connor McDavid. The Leafs sit sixth from the bottom. If the season ended today, that would represent a 7.5-per-cent draft-lotto shot at the generational talent from Newmarket, Ont. A few days ago, Mr. McDavid told The Toronto Sun’s Mike Zeisberger that ending up on the Leafs “would be a dream come true.”

It’s not at all likely, but until it’s certain one way or the other, Mr. McDavid will haunt the Leafs’ dreams.

You can’t ask a team to tank. Professional athletes aren’t built to do it. But no one in management is bothered by the roster’s decline into despair. Quite the opposite. Having taken the decision to start fresh, this is spinning out swimmingly.

Then, Mike Babcock. The best coach in the NHL still hasn’t re-signed with Detroit. People who know Mr. Babcock say one important thing about him – he badly wants to succeed in the most difficult, high-stakes circumstances. That would be Toronto. He could probably win now in a city such as San Jose. But why would he care?

There’s also the allegiance he feels to fellow coaches. Moving to hockey’s most lucrative market would make Mr. Babcock far and away the highest-paid coach in league history, a rising tide that floats all salary boats.

Next, the teardown. This is a controlled demolition, and it won’t happen quickly. The most likely players to leave before the March 2 trade deadline are Daniel Winnik and Mike Santorelli. They’re cheap, durable and many teams want them as playoff rentals. Removing that pair also has the salutary side effect of making the Leafs worse, aiding their dive into a deep draft. You could trade Dion Phaneuf tomorrow, but there’s a sizable risk of getting back someone who makes you better right now. That would be counterproductive.

This season has allowed management to identify a new core of players it wants to keep – Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardiner, Jonathan Bernier, William Nylander. Nazem Kadri and James van Riemsdyk are still considered valuable because of their youth. There are some favourites, but no one – not even a budding star such as Mr. Rielly – is untouchable.

It won’t happen until summer, but Mr. Phaneuf and Mr. Kessel are not in the plan. The goal now is extracting as much value as possible for them. That translates either to young players who are high-ceiling projects and draft picks.

It’s still a risk. The Edmonton Oilers haven’t been able to manage it. Chicago suffered through several miserable years before the Blackhawks could make it work.

Starting over is no guarantee of success. But everyone at every level has finally accepted that the other way – the way the Leafs have been trying for more than a decade – only promises mediocrity and disappointment.

The real difficulty is in keeping on the hard road down, which eventually leads back up.

​I don't know why they think Babcock would want to be anywhere near that train-wreck.
Edited by Hockeytown0001
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Well, it looks like the Leafs are going with the "scorched Earth" approach.

​I don't know why they think Babcock would want to be anywhere near that train-wreck.

As I said in another thread.....Who the hell is in charge of that franchise?

It seems as though there's a plethora of people who could 'call the shots' regarding how the team is run...Anyone with a functioning brain would stay clear of that mess.

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Well, it looks like the Leafs are going with the "scorched Earth" approach.

​I don't know why they think Babcock would want to be anywhere near that train-wreck.

Because he wants to coach Stamkos, Tavares and of course McDavid since all are dieing dieing to come to that 24/7 media train wreck.

Why should Babcock want such a big challenge ? The guy has absolutely nothing left to proof he did it all I guess more than anything he will want more control and another cup(s).

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It's long over due the Leafs decide to do a proper rebuild. I hope fans and media are aware and prepared for how long this will take. They're stuck with their core players for the next 4-7 years. 4 of the worst contracts in the league are in Toronto, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and Clarkson. Good luck trying to find anyone to take them off your hands. Kessel's a great player, but who's willing to have him till 2022?

Add to that they don't have any top prospects in the minors. This is just like an expansion team starting from scratch.

It's an 8-12 year turn around, that's how bad it's got in Toronto.

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It's long over due the Leafs decide to do a proper rebuild. I hope fans and media are aware and prepared for how long this will take. They're stuck with their core players for the next 4-7 years. 4 of the worst contracts in the league are in Toronto, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and Clarkson. Good luck trying to find anyone to take them off your hands. Kessel's a great player, but who's willing to have him till 2022?

Add to that they don't have any top prospects in the minors. This is just like an expansion team starting from scratch.

It's an 8-12 year turn around, that's how bad it's got in Toronto.

Clarkson has a really bad contract, but the others aren't so bad individually. Lupul is great when he's healthy, Kessel is consistently one of the top scorers in the league, and Phaneuf doesn't deserve all the flak that he gets (he's a number 2 defensemen on most teams I'd say).

That said... having ALL of those contracts on the same team is pretty worrisome lol.

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It's long over due the Leafs decide to do a proper rebuild. I hope fans and media are aware and prepared for how long this will take. They're stuck with their core players for the next 4-7 years. 4 of the worst contracts in the league are in Toronto, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and Clarkson. Good luck trying to find anyone to take them off your hands. Kessel's a great player, but who's willing to have him till 2022?

Add to that they don't have any top prospects in the minors. This is just like an expansion team starting from scratch.

It's an 8-12 year turn around, that's how bad it's got in Toronto.

Apparently, Kessel's name has been thrown around in trade rumors, so they might not have to worry about him.

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