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Wings Make Offer to Danny D!


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#201 Playmaker

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:41 PM

I have to admit, this was a damn good post.  I really cannot say you were incorrect in any of your assessments.

 

We really cannot say that Holland is a great post cap GM just as we can't say Yzerman is the same in Tampa Bay.  The truly good GMs of the cap era are the ones that make the playoffs every year IMHO.  Thats really all you can ask for.  You cannot predict how a team will gel.  You cannot predict chemistry.  The days of the dynasty are over in the NHL.  The new dynasty is making the playoffs, which the Wings have done for 20+ straight seasons, which is a record.

The NHL instituted a salary cap in 2005.  The Wings have made the playoffs every year, won a Stanley Cup, made it to game 7 of the Stanely Cup finals, several conference finals and we can't say Holland is a great post cap GM?  Who would be then?



#202 DeGraa55

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:55 PM

The NHL instituted a salary cap in 2005.  The Wings have made the playoffs every year, won a Stanley Cup, made it to game 7 of the Stanely Cup finals, several conference finals and we can't say Holland is a great post cap GM?  Who would be then?


He also hasn't faced anything like we have now either. These next couple of seasons will truly tell us the kind of gm Holland is. He has done good and bad things a lot more good than bad IMO. But these next few years will tell us if he was a good gm or a great gm....imo

#203 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:25 PM

The NHL instituted a salary cap in 2005.  The Wings have made the playoffs every year, won a Stanley Cup, made it to game 7 of the Stanely Cup finals, several conference finals and we can't say Holland is a great post cap GM?  Who would be then?

I definitely give the Flyers GM a nod for burying Prongers contract and signing an elite superstar goalie for 7 years and having superb D all the while.  :ok:

 

Also, Minnesota's GM for having 5 guys over 6 mil and 3 of those 5 over 7 mil.  :clap:

 

Gonna give a nod to good old Garth Snow for having 1/3 of his cap to goalies and 2/3 of his goalie's salary is going to Pina Coladas.

 

Edmonton's GM is pretty much the man.  312 forwards under 24 and 1 good Dman that he got cause he didn't want to play for the Ducks.  Instead of puck hogs with attitude problems like Yakupov, why not build at least once from the back end and draft Ryan Murray?   Naw, all that offense is making sure they don't get shutout numerous times in a shortened season.  ;)

 

Kenny Holland has to be the worst GM in the league by far with crappy company in Boston, Chicago and LA.  Cause they all won cups since 2008 and are pretty much terrible now. :lol:


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#204 gcom007

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:20 PM

The NHL instituted a salary cap in 2005.  The Wings have made the playoffs every year, won a Stanley Cup, made it to game 7 of the Stanely Cup finals, several conference finals and we can't say Holland is a great post cap GM?  Who would be then?

 

Since we were really feeling the cap when we were still paying Zetterberg around $2.5 million/season? Or when we had one Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for around a million (who won us our last Cup) and another Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for $2 million and bonuses? Or when Franzen was making less than a million and actually producing? Or when Flip was doing as much as he does now for less than a million? Or when we still had Lidstrom, money be damned?

 

We didn't have to start putting together a real cap team until 2009-2010. We were so stocked before the cap because of Mr. I's wallet that we didn't have to rush any talent, so by the time we start using some of our prospects, we had solid NHLers who were contributing far more than one would expect from typical guys making the kind of money they were. Once Holland had to start making cap decisions and signing our younger guys to real NHL deals, he has struggled in my opinion. And again, I'm not saying he utterly and completely failed, but I don't think he was great and I absolutely don't think he put the best team on the ice that he could. Whether we make the playoffs or not, if you can look at the situation and say, "you could do better," than something isn't right.

 

He's had a pattern of favoring guys that we develop, whether it made the most hockey sense or not, and in multiple cases, it didn't, and it really bit us in the ass. I still think the worst off-season was the summer of 2009 when he failed to sign any of our FAs, but made sure to sign Franzen to a lifetime deal before the regular season ended. He could've signed Hossa for around a million more per year, but instead prioritized the signing of Franzen, a one-dimensional player with only a couple strong seasons to his name, and Hudler, another small, one-dimensional player who ended up leaving for Russia anyways. When you have a chance to lock up a legitimate superstar who will outwork nearly everyone on the ice every night at both ends for a $5 million cap hit or less, you don't focus on Franzen and Hudler, or hell, Samuellson for that matter, who also left.

 

But it ended in an interesting manner, because he picked up some solid guys on the cheap because he had no other choice when he failed to sign anyone. And oddly, I'd say this is his strength. He's pretty good at finding descent NHL level guys like Patrick Eaves for very little money, bringing them in and getting a good amount of solid hockey out of them. What's nuts is that if he had his priorities straight, he could've kept Hossa and still would've ended up signing these types of guys to fill out the team with the cap space he had left.

 

But he keeps going back to the same old well for a lot of the same old guys. For the love, we signed Samuellson again this last off-season! And sure, we're making the playoffs, but like I said, there's that nagging "you could do better" factor. After all, when you have a team with Dats and Z and a descent goaltender, let alone when we had Nick Lidstrom anchoring our defense, I would hope you'd be in the playoffs every year! But I didn't know we were supposed to be satisfied with that, especially when it's practically a given when you have Dats and Z and Lidstrom and descent goaltending? Sure, it's nice, and I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment, but we should be there with the guys we have. That we don't go farther with the guys we have when Holland has had the power to put a better team on the ice and hasn't is the problem.

 

Most every good thing that's happened to this team in the cap era is a gift from the pre-cap era. Since the cap has started to catch up with us, things haven't looked so hot. And hell, when you've got whispers around time from guys who know and blatant remarks made to the press from the coach about dissatisfaction with what Holland's been doing, especially when we've had cap space and when we have enough prospects to move guys without leveraging the future, you've got to wonder if this is more than Armchair-GM critique at some point.

 

Bottom line, we've had a lot of guys leave the last few years, and little has been done to address it. We've had plenty of questionable signings. We've let guys slip away. We've failed to make moves to improve the team when opportunities are out there. We utterly and completely failed to prepare for the loss of Lidstrom before we were placed into a position of desperation.

 

And for the love, I don't care who was or wasn't available. Bottom line is, when you know you're going to lose a guy like Lidstrom, you move mountains to make a deal to land someone who can help bridge the gap and instill confidence. You really want to try and tell me Holland couldn't have brought in a solid guy capable of serving in that #1 role before Lidstrom left? I don't care if you have to give up prospects, picks, solid roster people, or overpay. You're in an infinitely better position before you lose Lidstrom than after, when every team or player is going to be demanding all the more from you, knowing you're desperate, all while you no longer have the benefit of being able to say, "you're going to be on a pairing with one of the greatest hockey players in history until he retires." You really want to try to tell me Holland couldn't have shaken enough trees to find even another Kronwall-level guy to at least help ease the pain somewhat before Lidstrom left? Please.

 

We have a core in place still that allows this team to compete every night, but the core deserves better. This should be a team that's not just able to make the playoffs, but have a legitimate chance of going the distance. I expect this team to get by in the regular season these days, but I don't expect anything out of the playoffs, when nearly every other team in the playoffs the last couple years has been able to show they're capable of making a racket? Why do I think that is? We don't have another level to go to anymore. We've got a lot of tired guys who don't have nearly as much to play for anymore after winning Cups and feeling the grind a few too many times. I'd rather have young, unproven guys than some of the guys we have hanging around still, because at least they still have something to prove. That is what motivates guys to find another level for the playoffs. We were lucky enough to be able to let our guys get ripe in GR so we could pay them less when they could contribute at a high level before, but I really don't know how much longer that's going to work in the cap era. It's one thing to let vets carry you through the season, but these mid-level vets with little left to play for don't get the job done in the playoffs.

 

And lastly, again, some of the guys Holland's ended up bringing in the last 3-4 years haven't been bad guys at all. I'm fine with Eaves, Miller, Tootoo, and a few others here and there. But he brought those guys in when he had no other choices. He could've done the same thing and made better high-end choices before he was up against the wall only to come up dry. That's the real problem with Holland. I think he could be a great cap-era GM if he gets back to making splashes like Rafalski or Hossa and then finding cheap guys who can contribute and have something to prove. I'm glad he hasn't thrown a ton of money at a goalie as I think it's one of the dumbest investments some teams make. But all in all, the "you could do better" thing hangs over the last four years like a cloudy sky on the verge of rain.


-Elliot


#205 gcom007

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

I definitely give the Flyers GM a nod for burying Prongers contract and signing an elite superstar goalie for 7 years and having superb D all the while.  :ok:
 
Also, Minnesota's GM for having 5 guys over 6 mil and 3 of those 5 over 7 mil.  :clap:
 
Gonna give a nod to good old Garth Snow for having 1/3 of his cap to goalies and 2/3 of his goalie's salary is going to Pina Coladas.
 
Edmonton's GM is pretty much the man.  312 forwards under 24 and 1 good Dman that he got cause he didn't want to play for the Ducks.  Instead of puck hogs with attitude problems like Yakupov, why not build at least once from the back end and draft Ryan Murray?   Naw, all that offense is making sure they don't get shutout numerous times in a shortened season.  ;)
 
Kenny Holland has to be the worst GM in the league by far with crappy company in Boston, Chicago and LA.  Cause they all won cups since 2008 and are pretty much terrible now. :lol:

 

 
Exactly. Since everything is a black and white issue. If he's not great, he's obviously the worst. There's no room for anything in-between, obviously.

Edited by gcom007, 27 March 2013 - 09:28 PM.

-Elliot


#206 FlashyG

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:33 PM

You can look at EVERY SINGLE team in the league and say their GM could do better.

 

Perfection is unattainable as a GM in any professional sport even more so when you are constrained by a salary cap.

 

Could Holland do better...absolutely,

 

but so could every other GM and when you compare their bodies of work I'll take Holland over any GM in the league...Possibly any GM in NHL history. A lot of that has to do with the management team surrounding him (Nill, Develanno both deserve a large share of the credit as does Hakan Andersson) but since Holland gets the blame for things that aren't his fault like guys not signing with us, he gets the credit for things that may not be entirely his work like stocking our prospect pool to its deepest point maybe ever



#207 HockeytownRules19

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

Dunno how legit this guy is but:

 

According to a source from WMU, it is a strong possibility UFA D Danny DeKeyser will sign with the Detroit Red Wings as early as tomorrow.

 

If true... Heck Yeah! Definitely need a better source, but it is still intriguing.


Edited by HockeytownRules19, 27 March 2013 - 10:11 PM.


#208 evilzyme

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:23 PM

Omfg plz plz plz plz!!!

Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#209 martinezsvsu

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:35 PM

Dunno how legit this guy is but:

 

According to a source from WMU, it is a strong possibility UFA D Danny DeKeyser will sign with the Detroit Red Wings as early as tomorrow.

 

If true... Heck Yeah! Definitely need a better source, but it is still intriguing.

yesssss!!!! tomorrow will either be awful or amazing depending on his decision.

 

when i stated earlier that i wish we had stevie instead of holland, i wasnt bashing holland or anything. i know hes doing all he can to get guys like danny and suter. i just love stevie. i like holland. i love stevie.



#210 evilzyme

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:39 PM

This feels all too familiar of the Suter situation though. God, I still remember those tweets the night before saying Suter to Detroit! We were all ready and then BAM. Man, whoever called it Suteritis, they hit the nail on the head.


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#211 jeff48109

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:05 PM

This feels all too familiar of the Suter situation though. God, I still remember those tweets the night before saying Suter to Detroit! We were all ready and then BAM. Man, whoever called it Suteritis, they hit the nail on the head.

 

i remember people were tracking flights from Detroit to Suter's hometown on flight aware or some other site that tracks flights lol



#212 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:07 PM

 

 
Exactly. Since everything is a black and white issue. If he's not great, he's obviously the worst. There's no room for anything in-between, obviously.

Yup.  Hence my mountain of sarcasm praising horrible GM's.  I had fun typing it.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#213 FlashyG

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:10 PM

yesssss!!!! tomorrow will either be awful or amazing depending on his decision.

 

when i stated earlier that i wish we had stevie instead of holland, i wasnt bashing holland or anything. i know hes doing all he can to get guys like danny and suter. i just love stevie. i like holland. i love stevie.

 

I love Stevie too, but as a player. As a GM he's been average or below average. If Tampa doesn't rebound next year he'll probably be looking for work.



#214 Wing-in-avs-town

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:15 PM

i think some of you are over thinking it. lashoff came out of nowhere and is a solid defender for us. dekeyser can probably do the same. i dont care if hes not a schultz jones trouba. i just hope he can play good hockey for us.

OK,

     bottom line,

            Is he really that good? 

 

If most think so, hope the Wings sign him & let the chips fall where they may.



And his favorite team is the Red Wings.

Let's hope so!


The early bird may get the worm, but it's the 2nd mouse that gets the cheese.

#215 bardownginos

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:49 PM

I think you guys are SEVERELY over-estimating how big of an impact being a lifelong fan will have on his decision. There is a reason he is fielding offers from other teams. Ultimately, he will do what is best for his career. If that's Detroit then I'm sure we'll here in all of the interviews about how it was his dream, but keep in mind, if this was strictly about being a childhood fan, he would already be on this team.



#216 evilzyme

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:54 PM

I think you guys are SEVERELY over-estimating how big of an impact being a lifelong fan will have on his decision. There is a reason he is fielding offers from other teams. Ultimately, he will do what is best for his career. If that's Detroit then I'm sure we'll here in all of the interviews about how it was his dream, but keep in mind, if this was strictly about being a childhood fan, he would already be on this team.

 

He has an agent for a reason, and that's to make him look. As an agent, you are not going to allow your client to simply "slap" the other 29 franchises and not even give them a chance to field offers to your client. It makes you, and your client look like complete assholes. If he *DID* sign with Detroit, and god forbid things went south, he would NOT want that stain on his resume that he didn't even give anyone the chance to sway him. I'm not sure what spot Detroit went, but he started fielding offers yesterday and Detroit came today, meaning, they could've been one of the last offers fielded. "Hey Danny, Listen, you can't simply sign with Detroit, we need to do this the right way and field offers from all franchises. Hey, let me tell you this, we'll field offers from the other teams and then Detroit will be the last to field an offer. That way, you can compare their contract and promises to the others and make a sound decision on your future. How's that sound, kiddo?!"


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#217 FlashyG

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:55 PM

I think you guys are SEVERELY over-estimating how big of an impact being a lifelong fan will have on his decision. There is a reason he is fielding offers from other teams. Ultimately, he will do what is best for his career. If that's Detroit then I'm sure we'll here in all of the interviews about how it was his dream, but keep in mind, if this was strictly about being a childhood fan, he would already be on this team.

 

No agent would have allowed him to sign without hearing the other offers. I agree that just because he grew up a Wings fan doesn't make his signing with them a forgone conclusion but it will play a large factor.

 

He'll do whats best for his career but considering he met with Detroit first, and then met with them again after everyone else it seems to me his agent is just using the competition to get as much (promise wise) out management as he can.



#218 Buppy

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:04 AM

Since we were really feeling the cap when we were still paying Zetterberg around $2.5 million/season?

 

....

 

But all in all, the "you could do better" thing hangs over the last four years like a cloudy sky on the verge of rain.

That is a ridiculous standard, and if you were to apply it to any other GM in the history of any sport you're not going to find even one you think is adequate.

 

In the span of a few seasons we lost Yzerman, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Fischer, Larionov, Hasek, among others, plus maybe the best coach of all time. Chelios went from a Norris candidate to depth player, Draper and Maltby from invaluable role-players to guys filling out the roster. We'd lost in the first round, second round, and first round. We had a lot of good prospects and could afford to lose some. Plus we made the transition to the cap era.

 

Holland made some moves, some were decent, some not so much. We signed some cast-offs that no one else wanted, brought up some young guys, signed one big UFA. It worked and we won a Cup. It wasn't luck that we had a bunch of cheap guys. It's what you have to do in the cap era. Then we had to start paying guys and trying to fill the rest of the roster with bargains. Some of those guys were decent, some not so much.

 

It's just not reasonable to expect that we should have had a replacement for Lidstrom before he left. The only way to get that is to get lucky, either with a prospect or someone else's cast off. If you want someone already proven, you would have had to give up a lot to get them, and we couldn't have fit them under the cap. We would have had to make the team worse in previous years. Maybe in hindsight you can say they should have, because we haven't done much in the playoffs anyway, but really you all would have just been bitching about mismanagement back then.

 

Some people are completely backward in thinking that the biggest needs, the biggest losses, should be the easiest to fill. Fact is, those holes have the fewest available options and the least margin for error. That's why almost no one, in any sport, in any era in history, has much success filling them without a hitch.

 

Nothing Holland could have done would have been better than landing Suter and Parise (particularly since we wouldn't have had to give up anything), and he put us in position to make a strong play for both of them. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. But we're still in a good position to add more, and we still have a well stocked prospect pool. Maybe, probably even, things will get worse before they get better. That's the nature of the beast. We need stars and those almost always come through the draft. Once we have our next generation of stars, then will come the time to start making trades and looking for a good UFA or two to put us over the top. Hopefully at that time, some of the young prospects we have now will emerge to fill some roles at bargain prices.

 

Sure, we could make a move or two now and it might work out. Or not. Look at the Rangers, Philly, San Jose... Maybe Holland could have done better. But who actually has?

 

Pittsburgh? Cup winner, last three years lost in the 2nd, 1st, and 1st round. Found some nice fits at forwards, including one absolute steal of a trade, wrecked their defense. Looking good this year, maybe they'll go somewhere, maybe not. Their best players can't stay healthy, probably going to have cap troubles again in a couple years.

 

Chicago? Cup winner, sat watching the TV hoping for Dallas to lose to put them in the playoffs the following year. Two first round losses. Looking good this year... Likely cap trouble again next year.

 

Boston? Cup winner, lost in the first round last year. Looking good... maybe some cap trouble next year.

 

LA? Cup winner, had to fight down to the wire to make the playoffs, likely the same this year. About $15M to fill almost half their roster next year...

 

Anaheim? Doing great this year after plenty of struggles since their Cup win. Big commitments to their stars likely to create some cap issues down the road...

 

Anyone else...

 

Pretty much all that separates us from any of them is they have young stars while ours are aging. Most of them were irrelevent not long ago, and will likely end up back there before too long. Come back when their stars are aging and see how much better they do than Holland. I bet none of them do half so well.

 

What Holland has already done proves that he's a great GM. He's had some luck, and a great staff to work with, but he's still been great. No matter how successfully we make it through our current transition or the next.



#219 gcom007

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:27 AM

That is a ridiculous standard, and if you were to apply it to any other GM in the history of any sport you're not going to find even one you think is adequate.

 

In the span of a few seasons we lost Yzerman, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Fischer, Larionov, Hasek, among others, plus maybe the best coach of all time. Chelios went from a Norris candidate to depth player, Draper and Maltby from invaluable role-players to guys filling out the roster. We'd lost in the first round, second round, and first round. We had a lot of good prospects and could afford to lose some. Plus we made the transition to the cap era.

 

Holland made some moves, some were decent, some not so much. We signed some cast-offs that no one else wanted, brought up some young guys, signed one big UFA. It worked and we won a Cup. It wasn't luck that we had a bunch of cheap guys. It's what you have to do in the cap era. Then we had to start paying guys and trying to fill the rest of the roster with bargains. Some of those guys were decent, some not so much.

 

It's just not reasonable to expect that we should have had a replacement for Lidstrom before he left. The only way to get that is to get lucky, either with a prospect or someone else's cast off. If you want someone already proven, you would have had to give up a lot to get them, and we couldn't have fit them under the cap. We would have had to make the team worse in previous years. Maybe in hindsight you can say they should have, because we haven't done much in the playoffs anyway, but really you all would have just been bitching about mismanagement back then.

 

Some people are completely backward in thinking that the biggest needs, the biggest losses, should be the easiest to fill. Fact is, those holes have the fewest available options and the least margin for error. That's why almost no one, in any sport, in any era in history, has much success filling them without a hitch.

 

Nothing Holland could have done would have been better than landing Suter and Parise (particularly since we wouldn't have had to give up anything), and he put us in position to make a strong play for both of them. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. But we're still in a good position to add more, and we still have a well stocked prospect pool. Maybe, probably even, things will get worse before they get better. That's the nature of the beast. We need stars and those almost always come through the draft. Once we have our next generation of stars, then will come the time to start making trades and looking for a good UFA or two to put us over the top. Hopefully at that time, some of the young prospects we have now will emerge to fill some roles at bargain prices.

 

Sure, we could make a move or two now and it might work out. Or not. Look at the Rangers, Philly, San Jose... Maybe Holland could have done better. But who actually has?

 

Pittsburgh? Cup winner, last three years lost in the 2nd, 1st, and 1st round. Found some nice fits at forwards, including one absolute steal of a trade, wrecked their defense. Looking good this year, maybe they'll go somewhere, maybe not. Their best players can't stay healthy, probably going to have cap troubles again in a couple years.

 

Chicago? Cup winner, sat watching the TV hoping for Dallas to lose to put them in the playoffs the following year. Two first round losses. Looking good this year... Likely cap trouble again next year.

 

Boston? Cup winner, lost in the first round last year. Looking good... maybe some cap trouble next year.

 

LA? Cup winner, had to fight down to the wire to make the playoffs, likely the same this year. About $15M to fill almost half their roster next year...

 

Anaheim? Doing great this year after plenty of struggles since their Cup win. Big commitments to their stars likely to create some cap issues down the road...

 

Anyone else...

 

Pretty much all that separates us from any of them is they have young stars while ours are aging. Most of them were irrelevent not long ago, and will likely end up back there before too long. Come back when their stars are aging and see how much better they do than Holland. I bet none of them do half so well.

 

What Holland has already done proves that he's a great GM. He's had some luck, and a great staff to work with, but he's still been great. No matter how successfully we make it through our current transition or the next.

 

I don't buy the "making the team worse" argument, nor the cap argument. First of all, especially last year, when all was said and done, we still had $4.5 million in cap space. But even in years before last, guys that likely would've been moved to make a trade happen would have balanced out most of the cap issues. And while I don't think you could say that making a trade that ships out talent for talent would make the team better immediately, I don't think it'd make them so much worse either. It probably would have been even then, with a stronger defense but somewhat weaker offense. But it'd make the blow of losing your top three defensemen over the course of one year much easier to swallow. Again, I'm not talking about just replacing Lidstrom, but also Rafalski and Stuart. Holland didn't even find a way to bring in a Stuart-level guy. I don't wholly disagree with some of what you're saying, and I'm not trying to suggest that perfection is the only option, but I absolutely am saying that if Holland was a truly great cap-era GM, I don't think he would've had the number and the magnitude of gaffs that he's had since really running up against the cap crunch. And don't take it from me, take it from him! He blatantly admitted that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened in the off-season in the summer of 2009. It's been much of the same drill each off-season since then, only getting worse in some ways as the seasons go by.

 

And to be clear, I'm fine with having a year or two or even more of struggle to get things right. If we have to field a weaker team in order to sign better guys for awhile as we sort out this transition and evolve, so be it. What bothers me most about Holland's approach is that he's seemed content to change as little as possible because the team with the core of Dats, Z and Lidstrom was generally going to be good enough to at least make the playoffs. But now Lidstrom's gone, and while the core is still strong, it hardly makes the team infallible. If heaven forbid we do lose Datsyuk in 15 months, and three months later we start the season having not addressed yet another hole in any meaningful way, will it still be excusable?

 

Pittsburgh landed Iginla tonight. Doesn't guarantee them anything, but we weren't even on Iginla's list according to most. No matter what you think of the deal or the other teams or how it might play out, that we weren't even a real part of the conversation is very telling of the status of our team. And again, I'd be fine with that status if it actually felt like we were building to something. But it doesn't, at all. We're just getting old and tired. As opposed to paying dues, we're just eeking by. 


-Elliot


#220 Nev

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:33 AM

Since we were really feeling the cap when we were still paying Zetterberg around $2.5 million/season? Or when we had one Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for around a million (who won us our last Cup) and another Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for $2 million and bonuses? Or when Franzen was making less than a million and actually producing? Or when Flip was doing as much as he does now for less than a million? Or when we still had Lidstrom, money be damned?

 

We didn't have to start putting together a real cap team until 2009-2010. We were so stocked before the cap because of Mr. I's wallet that we didn't have to rush any talent, so by the time we start using some of our prospects, we had solid NHLers who were contributing far more than one would expect from typical guys making the kind of money they were. Once Holland had to start making cap decisions and signing our younger guys to real NHL deals, he has struggled in my opinion. And again, I'm not saying he utterly and completely failed, but I don't think he was great and I absolutely don't think he put the best team on the ice that he could. Whether we make the playoffs or not, if you can look at the situation and say, "you could do better," than something isn't right.

 

.

 

Right, I'm gunna stop you right there tiger, because you essentially contradicted yourself from one paragraph to the next.  We had a great team because of all the cheap players we had under the cap (ignoring the fact that Holland drafted/traded/signed all those players)?  But apparantly that doesn't count as a cap team?  Even though that has precisely proved to be the formula for winning cups in the cap world ie good young players (usually 1st rounders and lottery picks, except for the team that Holland built ;) ) on ELCs or cheap 2nd contracts, with with enough cap space left over to fill the roster with quality vets.

 

Now he's trying to do something unprecedented in the cap world - retool on the fly, when 2 or 3 years of major suckage is the more proven way to rebuild your team.


Edited by Nev, 28 March 2013 - 04:40 AM.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk





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