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Richdg

Wings to have face to face with Matt Niskanen

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Niskanen might be our prime target now...

Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 3m

#RedWings have talked to UFA D Dan Boyle's camp, but sense is another team will give him more $$$ & term.

Butttttt if we get neither, say hello to Tom Gilbert or Stephane Robidas :lol:

Or Kyle Quincey.

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I am not sure why so many are down on Niskanen. he is 27, a RHed shot, and is very good defensively. For the last 6 seasons, he has been better than Kronwall defensively in 5 on 5 play. he has been developing offensively as well. At 27 years of age a 7 year deal brings him to 34 or the same age that kronwall turns this year. Adding guy like Niskenan makes our D better for each pair. having a guy like Niskanen to pair with Dekeyser to form a top pair. Niskanen is a very solid 2/3. Many of us believe that Dekeyser is turning into a 1/2. That makes a true top pair and allows Kornwall and either Ericsson or Smith to form a solid/great 2nd pair. That would make Kronwell/Ericsson better. Thus our whole D becomes better.

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I'm way late to this thread. But all I can say is we better not overpay for a guy who has had...count them...ONE good season under his belt. Id rather have an aging Dan Boyle that we know will bring it, like he has almost every other season he's played. However, if the contract is reasonable, I'm all for Niskanen wearing the Winged Wheel.

To be fair, Niskanen's always been a good NHL defenseman. He just reached new heights this season (at least in terms of point production), largely because he was used efficiently and effectively.

I wasn't too keen on signing Niskanen until fairly recently. I was afraid he might be that dreaded one-hit wonder who can singlehandedly wreck a team's cap situation for years. But if you dig into this guy's fancy stats and whatnot, you find a player who's a pretty solid fit for what we, realistically, should want, which is a really solid #3 or #4. Actually, more than that - it's a solid top four. That's what we'd be expecting if we were to sign Niskanen. We'd expect to have a solid first pairing and perhaps an equally solid second pairing, with lots of room for growth-from-within (Smith, DeKeyser, Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen, even Lashoff).

Given 1) our needs, 2) that what Niskanen's rumored to be looking for is more or less the standard rate for a top-four defenseman in his prime who can put up points like a lunatic if put in the right situation, 3) that the cap is expected to steadily rise (which goes hand-in-hand with inflation, e.g. an overpayment for Niskanen might look like a pretty good deal in 2016 dollars), and 4) that going with unproven kids or trading several assets for a big name wouldn't be any less risky than just spending money on an established talent...given all that, I'd be comfortable with giving Niskanen a big deal, within reason. (But then, it's not my money.)

Between Boyle for two years and Niskanen for around six...I guess Boyle would make more sense. (FWIW, Kenny's explicitly said he wants a defenseman who's looking for a couple years. I suppose that doesn't bode too well for our Niskanen hopes.) But knowing that even if none of our kids pans out we'd still have a legitimate blue line for years to come? That'd be a pretty big deal. So, I'd love Boyle or Niskanen, assuming fairly reasonable coin and term.

Edited by Dabura

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#RedWings have talked to UFA D Dan Boyle's camp, but sense is another team will give him more $$$ & term.

Not surprising - and I don't mean that in a Holland-hating sense. I'm willing to bet the Leafs would offer him $6M x 4 years if they thought it'd get them their man. (Assuming Shanny has no real power.) Not sure if they'd be able to pull that off, cap-wise. But you get what I'm saying.

Niskanen's a solid defenseman in the prime of his career who has all the qualities we're looking for in our Quincey upgrade. If you have to give a little more than you'd like, so be it.

Edited by Dabura

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I think it would be great to get Boyle. But if teams are throwing big money... and more importantly long terms.. at the guy then it's an easy pass for a guy like Niskanen instead.

The more I learn about him, the more I feel you can build an organization around Niskanen. Detroit truly could use a 7-year patch on their D-corps. A good puck moving defenseman is critical to winning the cup. The guy is young, defensively sound and developing on offense. He should get better over time if the guidance and leadership is there (I'm not sure Detroit still possesses this, though, to be honest...)

If you would overpay for anybody, Niskanen is the one this team should overpay for. And if you truly need the 7 years out of him it's probably not much of an overpayment.

Edited by themcityblues

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I think it would be great to get Boyle. But if teams are throwing big money... and more importantly long terms.. at the guy then it's an easy pass for a guy like Niskanen instead.

The more I learn about him, the more I feel you can build an organization around Niskanen. Detroit truly could use a 7-year patch on their D-corps. A good puck moving defenseman is critical to winning the cup. The guy is young, defensively sound and developing on offense. He should get better over time if the guidance and leadership is there (I'm not sure Detroit still possesses this, though, to be honest...)

If you would overpay for anybody, Niskanen is the one this team should overpay for. And if you truly need the 7 years out of him it's probably not much of an overpayment.

:glare:

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As for those worrying about the young Dmen, don't. Yes Oullett, Sproul, and Marchenko only have 2 years that they can go down to GR without passing waivers. But what is the chance that all 3 turn out? About 0. Plus 2 years from now Kronwall will be 36. His NTC is also gone. Lashoff is our 7th as of today. That makes 2 possible spots right there. Not to mention since when is having to much talent a bad thing? maybe 1 or 2 get moved to fill another whole on the roster. There is no down side here.

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As for those worrying about the young Dmen, don't. Yes Oullett, Sproul, and Marchenko only have 2 years that they can go down to GR without passing waivers. But what is the chance that all 3 turn out? About 0. Plus 2 years from now Kronwall will be 36. His NTC is also gone. Lashoff is our 7th as of today. That makes 2 possible spots right there. Not to mention since when is having to much talent a bad thing? maybe 1 or 2 get moved to fill another whole on the roster. There is no down side here.

Will they all turn out as good as they could be? No. But I don't understand why you keep talking about prospects like only 2 are going to be decent nhl players. Yes not many players drafted make it, but guys like Marchenko, Ouellet and Sproul are all capable of playing in the show next year. So I think it's safe to say, barring some insane injuries, that they'll all make it.

wings4thecup06 likes this

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Naw, if 2 out the 3 that we are talking about turn into players as good as Nickasen is or better, that would be a major surprise. But lets say they do. 2 years from now we are heading into datsyuks last year. is it possible we could need a new top C? How do you get guys like that? Draft/trade/sign UFA's. Having 8, 9, 10 NHL caliber Dmen is a positive thing. Not a negative.

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Niskanen is an easy one. If Kenny Boy has to overpay (not some insane bidding war BS, forget that), then it seems like he should strongly consider it. This team desperately needs a solid D-man upgrade and this is it, no picks or prospects given up. Sounds good to me.

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Good! I don't think Boyle is the solution and he prolly wants 3 years. Despite people's arguments, I think Niskanen will be good for a long time.

I think Boyle has already publicly stated that he would like 2 years and that he feels he can really provide his A game for at least 2 more years, and then he'll see where he's at after. So I don't think Boyle is asking for more than 2. I would like to get Boyle, but I'm sure someone may want to pay him more than he is actually worth at this point in his career.

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I think Boyle has already publicly stated that he would like 2 years and that he feels he can really provide his A game for at least 2 more years, and then he'll see where he's at after. So I don't think Boyle is asking for more than 2. I would like to get Boyle, but I'm sure someone may want to pay him more than he is actually worth at this point in his career.

Yea I'm hoping that what Niskanen is asking for isn't far off from what Boyle is asking which is why they are switching their focus.

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I don't understand how people are willing to pay a premium for Boyle but cringe on the money for a guy like Niskanen ? Every contract holds some risk yes, Niskanen is coming off his best year but it's not like he has been horrible before the guy knows how to move the puck and how to play a solid defensive game.

If you have to overpay him by about 0,5kk you do it, especially with our top 4...

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Must get Niskanen. Overpay and sign. If not then somebody will and make their team better. I have said it before. He can be the next Rafalski in the Wings system.

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Alfie signing a top UFA one? *lol* it was a good signing nothing more nothing less. Weiss signed after being out for almost 6 months..

Niskanen would easily be the biggest offseason signing, the defense needs to become better and not all of these GR guys are going to make it to the big club, some will get t raded others just aren't good enough.

6 years 33 million should get the job done, the cap is risin

You're not comprehending. Whether you like it or not, Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson were likely considered #1 and #2 of a weak free agent market. (Val Filppula could be in the mix as well, but he was leaving the Wings) Whether you think they are good players or not is neither here nor there. Other teams wanted these guys, (Boston was rumored to be interested in Alfie) and they both signed with Detroit.

Again, who are all these other top free agents that Holland pursued that shunned the Wings? Even Parise and Suter didn't reject the Wings due to money or going to a "contender". They went to the Minnestoa Wild. You know, that storied franchise in that swanky urban city with a chance to win the Cup every year.

Pre salary cap, free agents came to the Wings because Ilitch could and would offer the most money. Now with the salary cap, that advantage has been taken away. It has nothing to do with Holland's abilities or Detroit not being a "contender" or a destination city.

The Wings don't go after many free agents, but when they do, more often than not, they get their man. Parise and Suter were the exception, not the rule.

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Maybe I'm not remembering right, but it was my understanding that UFAs, under the new agreement could only sign with a new team for 6 years, but with their current team for 7?

Of course Niskanen will be over paid, its the nature of the UFA beast, but a RH offensive defenseman in his prime? (And North American and not European!) I think the Wings could overspend on a lot worse things. Put another way, is he worth Sammy, Cleary and Bert? That's what he'd cost. I'd say uh, yeah. I think a decent puck moving defenseman will make the offense much more productive as well and make the need for a forward much less pressing.

As someone else mentioned, the chances that Sproul, Oulette and Marchenko all thrive at the NHL level are very low percentage wise. The key is figuring out which one will succeed.

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Maybe I'm not remembering right, but it was my understanding that UFAs, under the new agreement could only sign with a new team for 6 years, but with their current team for 7?

Of course Niskanen will be over paid, its the nature of the UFA beast, but a RH offensive defenseman in his prime? (And North American and not European!) I think the Wings could overspend on a lot worse things. Put another way, is he worth Sammy, Cleary and Bert? That's what he'd cost. I'd say uh, yeah. I think a decent puck moving defenseman will make the offense much more productive as well and make the need for a forward much less pressing.

As someone else mentioned, the chances that Sproul, Oulette and Marchenko all thrive at the NHL level are very low percentage wise. The key is figuring out which one will succeed.

You're close just off by a year. It's 7 and 8.

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People are calling Niskanen a solid player. He is. He was also the Pens's #4 d and despite being solid /good, he's going to get top pair money, if not #1 money. It'd be like paying as much for a Focus as you would a Mustang because you need a new car.

Alfie signing a top UFA one? *lol* it was a good signing nothing more nothing less. Weiss signed after being out for almost 6 months..Niskanen would easily be the biggest offseason signing, the defense needs to become better and not all of these GR guys are going to make it to the big club, some will get t raded others just aren't good enough.6 years 33 million should get the job done, the cap is risinYou're not comprehending. Whether you like it or not, Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson were likely considered #1 and #2 of a weak free agent market. (Val Filppula could be in the mix as well, but he was leaving the Wings) Whether you think they are good players or not is neither here nor there. Other teams wanted these guys, (Boston was rumored to be interested in Alfie) and they both signed with Detroit. Again, who are all these other top free agents that Holland pursued that shunned the Wings? Even Parise and Suter didn't reject the Wings due to money or going to a "contender". They went to the Minnestoa Wild. You know, that storied franchise in that swanky urban city with a chance to win the Cup every year.Pre salary cap, free agents came to the Wings because Ilitch could and would offer the most money. Now with the salary cap, that advantage has been taken away. It has nothing to do with Holland's abilities or Detroit not being a "contender" or a destination city. The Wings don't go after many free agents, but when they do, more often than not, they get their man. Parise and Suter were the exception, not the rule.
Parise and Suter went to Minny because of their matching contracts and that's where their wives wanted them to go. There were also lots of free agents who didn't wan to come here before the cap, but back then your third option was still good. Edited by DickieDunn
Dominator2005 and krsmith17 like this

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Weiss was a pretty big free agent signing last year

So was Alfie if really think about it

Not superstar signings but Niskanen caliber signings

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I don't understand how people are willing to pay a premium for Boyle but cringe on the money for a guy like Niskanen ? Every contract holds some risk yes, Niskanen is coming off his best year but it's not like he has been horrible before the guy knows how to move the puck and how to play a solid defensive game. If you have to overpay him by about 0,5kk you do it, especially with our top 4...

The difference is Boyle will sign for 2 years while Niskanen will sign for 7, with the kids we have in the system that's not great

Marchenko and Sproul are probably a year away while Ouellet I'd say is ready. Look at the Kings, Bruins and Blackhawks, They have great defensive depth and most of it came from within. I think our system lets us do that and IMO we'd be better off with a proven veteran (who Babcock coached) who can help the kids for a couple years vs a guy coming off one spectacular season.

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People are calling Niskanen a solid player. He is. He was also the Pens's #4 d and despite being solid /good, he's going to get top pair money, if not #1 money. It'd be like paying as much for a Focus as you would a Mustang because you need a new car.

Parise and Suter went to Minny because of their matching contracts and that's where their wives wanted them to go. There were also lots of free agents who didn't wan to come here before the cap, but back then your third option was still good.

What's #1 money? I'm curious what you think Niskanen will make? Since there's no way you could know the exact number, lets do an over/under.

Over/Under 6 million cap hit? Over/under 6 years term?

I'd say under to both. Which would definitely excluding him from #1 defenseman money. But that's just me.

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What's #1 money? I'm curious what you think Niskanen will make? Since there's no way you could know the exact number, lets do an over/under.

Over/Under 6 million cap hit? Over/under 6 years term?

I'd say under to both. Which would definitely excluding him from #1 defenseman money. But that's just me.

I think over in term(7years). Not sure cap hit hopefully under.....5.5 or 5 woukd be great.

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Well he did say in an interview (which I read in one of Malik's diatribes so I'm no willing to go dig it up) that term is "generally" more important to him than salary. Though I'm not suggesting anyone interpret that as Niskanen saying "I'm looking for long term to the EXCLUSION of salary".

Like I said, I'm expecting 5 years at less than 6 mil. In other words, Wisniewski money and term...which he's worth. Obviously he COULD get more elsewhere, but only from a bottom dweller with unlimited cap space. And why would Matt Niskanen walk away from playing with Crosby or Malkin for the rest of his career to play on a worse team less likely to win? This kid's looking to win. I don't think he prices himself out of the market for that reason alone.

Edited by kipwinger
e_prime likes this

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I don't understand how people are willing to pay a premium for Boyle but cringe on the money for a guy like Niskanen ? Every contract holds some risk yes, Niskanen is coming off his best year but it's not like he has been horrible before the guy knows how to move the puck and how to play a solid defensive game. If you have to overpay him by about 0,5kk you do it, especially with our top 4...

Must get Niskanen. Overpay and sign. If not then somebody will and make their team better. I have said it before. He can be the next Rafalski in the Wings system.

I might be way off base, but I'm thinking a guy like Boyle will get nothing more than $4 million per year for 2, or 3 years.

Niskanen on the other hand will get nothing less than $6 million for 7 years.

From what very little I know of Niskanen - he sounds like he could be another 'Rafalski' for the Red Wings - however the real Rafalski was alot more accomplished/experienced, and was regarded a safe bet signing for Holland.

Well he did say in an interview (which I read in one of Malik's diatribes so I'm no willing to go dig it up) that term is "generally" more important to him than salary. Though I'm not suggesting anyone interpret that as Niskanen saying "I'm looking for long term to the EXCLUSION of salary".

Like I said, I'm expecting 5 years at less than 6 mil. In other words, Wisniewski money and term...which he's worth. Obviously he COULD get more elsewhere, but only from a bottom dweller with unlimited cap space. And why would Matt Niskanen walk away from playing with Crosby or Malkin for the rest of his career to play on a worse team less likely to win? This kid's looking to win. I don't think he prices himself out of the market for that reason alone.

You make a good point regarding Niskanen - however look at Wisnewski, and his signing with the Blue Jackets...Sometimes ya never know.

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I might be way off base, but I'm thinking a guy like Boyle will get nothing more than $4 million per year for 2, or 3 years.

Niskanen on the other hand will get nothing less than $6 million for 7 years.

From what very little I know of Niskanen - he sounds like he could be another 'Rafalski' for the Red Wings - however the real Rafalski was alot more accomplished/experienced, and was regarded a safe bet signing for Holland.

You make a good point regarding Niskanen - however look at Wisnewski, and his signing with the Blue Jackets...Sometimes ya never know.

It's not a guarantee, no doubt, but I'd say it's a significant factor. Also, it's not like Columbus gave Wiz the moon to play there. They paid him about what a 50 pt. puckmoving d-man should make. So I'm assuming he went there for other reasons. 75% of the teams in the league would have paid 5.5 million for 5 years for Wiz at age 27.

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