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haroldsnepsts

Quincey re-signed by DET. 2 yr s $4.25 mill AAV

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I think a lot of people realize how terrible this Quincey signing is, but I don't think as many has a grasp of how much it means in the big picture. It's just utterly horrendous. Even if they guy wasn't as bad as he is, it's just a such a terrible thing to go and do with our image already in the toilet. You do nothing and you can at least go on trying to minimize what happened today, but signing Quincey to that deal was a grand acknowledgement of the fact that this off-season is already an epic disaster for the Detroit Red Wings.

Their whole reaction has made the Red Wings' image suffer. Holland coming out and admitting he is baffled, the signing of Quincey, the big public spectacle about everyone rejecting the Wings, it does some serious damage long-term. We can't build a successful team only through the draft. Sooner or later we'll have to make a trade to supplement. But I guess it's set in stone, the team's goal is to "wait and see" by struggling for a few more years and hope enough of our prospects all turn into all-stars.

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Holland doesn't seem to be fazed.

Holland said he is not disappointed, however.

"Not in the least," Holland said. "You're talking about 4-5 players and there's 30 teams. It's free agency; it's wide open. Other teams are after these players, too. Last year we got the guys wanted (forwards Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson) this year we didn't."

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Their whole reaction has made the Red Wings' image suffer. Holland coming out and admitting he is baffled, the signing of Quincey, the big public spectacle about everyone rejecting the Wings, it does some serious damage long-term. We can't build a successful team only through the draft. Sooner or later we'll have to make a trade to supplement. But I guess it's set in stone, the team's goal is to "wait and see" by struggling for a few more years and hope enough of our prospects all turn into all-stars.

Especially at the positions we end up drafting at. Too many people are aware of the European players now and while we still manage to bring in good talent, we're not drafting in the position to bring in the kind of talent you can bet on being able to build a team around. Even Nyquist and Tatar haven't proven they'll be those guys in the long term, and Mantha hasn't even seen an AHL game yet. You hope for the best from all of them, but you can't just assume they'll automatically be star players just because you hope it comes true. If we're going to have a successful team that's mostly built from the draft, we're going to need to tank, and that's only going to happen in the near term if we get a new GM that unsuccessfully blows up the team to change the makeup and hopefully shake up the image. Such a process could end well too, but if Holland stays on and runs things as he has been, we'll continue to be out of contention for the spots that get a chance at drafting franchise players.

Holland doesn't seem to be fazed.

Holland said he is not disappointed, however.

"Not in the least," Holland said. "You're talking about 4-5 players and there's 30 teams. It's free agency; it's wide open. Other teams are after these players, too. Last year we got the guys wanted (forwards Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson) this year we didn't."

Is Holland senile too? I mean, seriously, show a little passion. You're either out of your damn mind or you're lying through your teeth making bulls*** statements like that.

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Holland doesn't seem to be fazed.

Holland said he is not disappointed, however.

"Not in the least," Holland said. "You're talking about 4-5 players and there's 30 teams. It's free agency; it's wide open. Other teams are after these players, too. Last year we got the guys wanted (forwards Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson) this year we didn't."

is there a link to this interview, I would love to see him stumble around on his words while trying to make excuses

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This team is doomed... Datsyuk should be on the bat phone right to Chris Illitch...I changed my mind, I retire. Zetterberg should pull a slap-slot moment..."you call Detroit and tell them bulls***...trade me right ******* now!" Weiss should demand a trade and list the 29 teams he would accept a trade to.

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A thought: didn't Holland lowball Suter and Parise initially? Maybe that's the practice that's turning people away. You lowball someone, that pisses them off, then you ultimately say you'll give them more, but you've lowballed them and now you seem desperate and they'd probably love nothing more than to throw it in your face, provided they have good offers elsewhere.

I don't think Kenny knows how to be competitive in the cap era. Things have to happen on his terms, at his pace. Free agents have to fall into his lap, practically beg to sign with the Wings. Half the team has to be injured for our most promising kids to get a good solid look.

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Holland doesn't seem to be fazed.

Holland said he is not disappointed, however.

"Not in the least," Holland said. "You're talking about 4-5 players and there's 30 teams. It's free agency; it's wide open. Other teams are after these players, too. Last year we got the guys wanted (forwards Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson) this year we didn't."

This is why nothing will ever change. Good GM's change with the times. Holland always uses excuses that it's not his fault, in any capacity, for what happened today.

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A thought: didn't Holland lowball Suter and Parise initially? Maybe that's the practice that's turning people away. You lowball someone, that pisses them off, then you ultimately say you'll give them more, but you've lowballed them and now you seem desperate and they'd probably love nothing more than to throw it in your face, provided they have good offers elsewhere.

I don't think Kenny knows how to be competitive in the cap era. Things have to happen on his terms, at his pace. Free agents have to fall into his lap, practically beg to sign with the Wings. Half the team has to be injured for our most promising kids to get a good solid look.

Really. Because last time I checked, the “cap era” began in 2006 right?

2006 - President’s trophy

2007 - WCF

2008 - Stanley Cup champions

2009 - SCF

Anyway, you can credit Lidstrom, Bowman, Nill, Captain America, Marion Illitch’s hairdresser, whoever the f***. Doesn’t matter. The results above speak for themselves and they all most definitely happened in the cap era.

I know it seems like I’m defending Holland but really I’m not. I’d never dream of it today. I’m just saying there has to be a line of sensible thought drawn through all of this mess, and maybe that starts by toning down the hyperbole.

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Really. Because last time I checked, the “cap era” began in 2006 right?

2006 - President’s trophy

2007 - WCF

2008 - Stanley Cup champions

2009 - SCF

Anyway, you can credit Lidstrom, Bowman, Nill, Captain America, Marion Illitch’s hairdresser, whoever the f***. Doesn’t matter. The results above speak for themselves and they all most definitely happened in the cap era.

I know it seems like I’m defending Holland but really I’m not. I’d never dream of it today. I’m just saying there has to be a line of sensible thought drawn through all of this mess, and maybe that starts by toning down the hyperbole.

All sensible thought went out the window the moment Kenny thought it was a good idea to give "turnover Kyle" 4 mil a year. I say throw him to the wolves he deserves it today.

And yes from now on I'm calling Quincey "turnover Kyle"

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We have three RH DMen at GR....Marchenko and Jensen are 2nd/3rd pairing types and are ready or close to it. Sproul has a chance to be a top pairing guy, but he needs at least another year at GR. I'd be fine with waiving bye bye to Kindl and Lashoff if Marchenko and Jensen look ready in camp.

I said earlier this year I'd be good with re-signing Quincey if the price was right...a two year deal for 8.5? Close enough for me....

This!

A spot is gone for one of these guys because of the Quincey signing. Holland should have waited to see if any of these guys were ready to get into the lineup AFTER training camp before he would even consider giving Quincey a contract (and I could pretty much bet the farm that Quincey would still be available).

And God help us if Holland tried to trade for a RH D (or for anybody). The Wings would get fleeced in any deal that Holland would make.

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Quincey>Lashoff, Kindl

Cap hit is pretty much irrelevant since nobody wants our money. 2 years kind of stings. He had us by the balls but this deal hardly holds us back from improving

I’m as furious as the next guy. Mostly because the media is having a field day with anti-Detroit propaganda.

But I agree with this.

Also, for once, I’m actually terrified that we’re going to rush some of these defensive prospects out of desperation. In short, I would have loved Erhoff or Niskanen on this team, but I’ll take a desperate KFQ signing over potentially ruined Sproul’s development arc because we need someone to play #4 - #6 minutes on a disastrous D.

Wings brass. You have two years to ensure that these young defensemen can walk onto a team that’s moving forward properly.

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I think Quincey is better than most people give him credit for but that being said he should not have been resigned at all especially at that price. He will be the whipping boy no matter what now. I felt like I had been punched in the stomach today when the wings did not get anyone to sign and then had to resort to re signing quincey. I wish they would have just said oh well and let some new blood play. I also like Cleary but do not want him re signed either but I thnk we all know that he will be.

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Quincey>Lashoff, Kindl

Cap hit is pretty much irrelevant since nobody wants our money. 2 years kind of stings. He had us by the balls but this deal hardly holds us back from improving

How do the Wings improve? They missed on every targeted impact free agent d-man. Holland's track record on trades is either non-existent or awful, besides acquiring Stuart. Even then, now asking prices for someone like Myers or Yandle will be higher and the Wings lose major assets in the process.

That's the problem with re-signing Quincey. It was simply out of panic and a desperation move, similar to the first time Holland brought Quincey back and also with Legwand. Holland said before free agency that the kids were a suitable backup plan should they strike out in free agency. Quincey does nothing but impede that exact idea. Every line Holland has fed us lately about relying on youth has been utter bulls*** unless his hand has been forced by excessive injuries to all of the declining veterans he so fondly lets hang around. Quincey doesn't help the Wings in any sense going forward.

Holland for years now is either ignorant of the process required to obtain talent or lying to the fanbase about his motives. Don't tell us you aren't trading for rentals at the deadline and then overpay for Legwand so the team could win one playoff game to extend a meaningless streak. Or constantly remind us how ready the kids are in Grand Rapids and then leave them rotting there for years so Kyle Quincey can have a roster spot on a team stuck in mediocrity.

I don't know why free agents don't want to play for the Red Wings anymore, but the general manager should. Especially when you have an extended window before free agency begins to meet with players and grasp an indication of their intentions. I'm just fed up with the lack of direction and excuse making coming from Holland and the front office while the lap dog reporters following the Wings perpetuate the fabrications.

Today is the low point for the Wings since the 2009 season ended. Something has to change because five plus years of the same tune and no results is unacceptable. I think most people have been more progressively getting frustrated with Holland's moves lately, but I have never seen such widespread angst from the fanbase than right now. That's a good thing because it means their customers still care enough and aren't apathetic spectators like what has happened to the Pistons. It's going to end that way though if the trend continues because this franchise is stale and Holland doesn't appear to have a solution or plan that doesn't involve his comfort zone of keeping players he shouldn't.

I will still be around October 9th and every game beyond that, but I have never been less enthused about a hockey season starting than this one. I'm just purely disgusted right now because I expect better from this organization.

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Really. Because last time I checked, the “cap era” began in 2006 right?

2006 - President’s trophy

2007 - WCF

2008 - Stanley Cup champions

2009 - SCF

Anyway, you can credit Lidstrom, Bowman, Nill, Captain America, Marion Illitch’s hairdresser, whoever the f***. Doesn’t matter. The results above speak for themselves and they all most definitely happened in the cap era.

I know it seems like I’m defending Holland but really I’m not. I’d never dream of it today. I’m just saying there has to be a line of sensible thought drawn through all of this mess, and maybe that starts by toning down the hyperbole.

But you have to admit, those years were unique for the Wings, and the team that had the most success was primarily a team built before the cap. When they got back to playing, they had the benefit of a salary rollback and they were able to buyout some deals that weren't close to reasonable with a cap and keep the core of the team together. Not only that, you had the unexpected rise of Franzen, who had his most success when he was making very little money. Zetterberg wasn't making star money until 2009 I believe despite being a bonafide superstar; wasn't his deal before his current contract for less than $3 million? I want to say $2.2 or $2.8. Either one was well below the value he brought to the team at the time.

But I'm not really trying to take anything away from him so much as not given him too much credit for actually building a cap team, because I don't think he had to start building a legitimate cap team until 2009. You have to admit, he was lucky to have Franzen breakout while making next to no money, and getting away with paying Z less than $3 million throughout that period was of tremendous benefit. With that kind of luck and those RFA deals, there are likely a lot of GMs who could've done less than Holland had to and still had a tremendous amount of success.

I mean, seriously, despite the salary cap and despite having a ton of talent up front, those lingering RFA deals allowed him to sign Hossa to a big 1 year deal in the summer of 2008. That's no small or ordinary thing, especially with no cap hit trickery from a longer deal to lessen the blow. For the team to be as loaded with talent as they were in the cap era and still be able to pull that off seems utterly laughable now, but again, we were lucky to have those lingering RFA deals and Franzen became a beast seemingly out of nowhere for a couple years.

When tougher decisions started having to be made in 2009, that is when the reality of the salary cap started weighing down on how this team would be built, and it's been all downhill since. Every summer since the summer of 2009, he's been caught flat footed and unprepared. Even he has flat out admitted that at times, earlier on though more than in recent years.

So sure, he had great success early on in the cap era, but how much that success had to do with him having to build a team in the cap era and how much it had to do with pure luck, rollbacks and outlandishly amazing value on some RFA deals is debatable. Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from his success at that time, but I also don't think that era represents Holland's ability to build a true cap era team, and I don't think it serves as justification to continue to give him more chances after five years of him failing to address needs and countless flat out bad signings.

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Really. Because last time I checked, the “cap era” began in 2006 right?

2006 - President’s trophy

2007 - WCF

2008 - Stanley Cup champions

2009 - SCF

Anyway, you can credit Lidstrom, Bowman, Nill, Captain America, Marion Illitch’s hairdresser, whoever the f***. Doesn’t matter. The results above speak for themselves and they all most definitely happened in the cap era.

I know it seems like I’m defending Holland but really I’m not. I’d never dream of it today. I’m just saying there has to be a line of sensible thought drawn through all of this mess, and maybe that starts by toning down the hyperbole.

You know what I meant, zombo. I'm not actually saying Ken Holland doesn't know how to field a good team in the cap era. I'm saying you do have to wonder just how good this guy really is at his job and just how much credit he really deserves. The pre-Cap era was, I dare say, mostly easy for him. That carried over to the first few years of the cap era - specifically, 2006-2009. We still had some core pieces from the 90s teams, and we got pretty lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. We've been in decline since 2009, and the argument can definitely be made that it's because Holland is being forced to prove his mettle in a landscape that doesn't grant his organization any intrinsic advantages. It's new ground for him, and he doesn't seem especially comfortable. The huge competitive advantages are disappearing. Stealing Russians. Scouting the most obscure corners of Scandinavia. Limitless spending. Having depth left over from those days of limitless spending. Having Nick Lidstrom. Knowing puck possession is everything. He can't lean on this stuff anymore. We're not ahead of the curve anymore.

I want to believe that the past five years have been a rebuild. That he realized the best thing this team could do is be good but not great and build up a stable of promising young talent through the draft. But even there, Holland has done so much that suggests he doesn't really have a plan or vision. He'll offer Suter and Parise the moon, and then, on losing the bidding war, turn around and say that there's no hockey store and you have to build through the draft and blah blah blah. He'll say it's the kids' time, and then he'll re-sign Quincey and Cleary and Gustavsson and Alfredsson and almost surely start Jurco and Mantha in GR.

Nill and Yzerman have done wonders for their respective organizations. They've been proactive, they've thought outside the box, they've made some hard decisions, they've taken risks. They've built something out of mostly nothing. Those teams are damn good, and they're only going to get better. They could've easily made excuses and said this is going to be a long process and half the teams in the league don't make the playoffs and blah blah blah. They know what needs to be done and they're doing it. Meanwhile, the Wings are stuck in the mud. Our two best players are old and injury prone, and that's not counting Franzen or Alfredsson or Kronwall. Howard hasn't won anything but he's getting paid like a top goalie. Kindl's cap hit is $2.4M for the next three years. No one wants to sign with the Red Wings, and Holland's response is, "I don't know why this is happening. But I'm not remotely worried. (Because I'm Ken Holland and everyone knows I'm a genius. Ask Helene, she'll tell you.)"

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But you have to admit, those years were unique for the Wings, and the team that had the most success was primarily a team built before the cap. When they got back to playing, they had the benefit of a salary rollback and they were able to buyout some deals that weren't close to reasonable with a cap and keep the core of the team together. Not only that, you had the unexpected rise of Franzen, who had his most success when he was making very little money. Zetterberg wasn't making star money until 2009 I believe despite being a bonafide superstar; wasn't his deal before his current contract for less than $3 million? I want to say $2.2 or $2.8. Either one was well below the value he brought to the team at the time.

But I'm not really trying to take anything away from him so much as not given him too much credit for actually building a cap team, because I don't think he had to start building a legitimate cap team until 2009. You have to admit, he was lucky to have Franzen breakout while making next to no money, and getting away with paying Z less than $3 million throughout that period was of tremendous benefit. With that kind of luck and those RFA deals, there are likely a lot of GMs who could've done less than Holland had to and still had a tremendous amount of success.

I mean, seriously, despite the salary cap and despite having a ton of talent up front, those lingering RFA deals allowed him to sign Hossa to a big 1 year deal in the summer of 2008. That's no small or ordinary thing, especially with no cap hit trickery from a longer deal to lessen the blow. For the team to be as loaded with talent as they were in the cap era and still be able to pull that off seems utterly laughable now, but again, we were lucky to have those lingering RFA deals and Franzen became a beast seemingly out of nowhere for a couple years.

When tougher decisions started having to be made in 2009, that is when the reality of the salary cap started weighing down on how this team would be built, and it's been all downhill since. Every summer since the summer of 2009, he's been caught flat footed and unprepared. Even he has flat out admitted that at times, earlier on though more than in recent years.

So sure, he had great success early on in the cap era, but how much that success had to do with him having to build a team in the cap era and how much it had to do with pure luck, rollbacks and outlandishly amazing value on some RFA deals is debatable. Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from his success at that time, but I also don't think that era represents Holland's ability to build a true cap era team, and I don't think it serves as justification to continue to give him more chances after five years of him failing to address needs and countless flat out bad signings.

This is a good post.

But Holland’s done a respectable job of managing the cap.

Sometimes I think people forget how the NHL works now.

You absolutely have to built your team through the draft. I don’t have to tell anyone where Detroit has had the luxury of picking from since 91 do I? Holland’s at an automatic disadvantage. It’s a miracle that Datsyuk and Z were as good as they were or we would have been picking Doughty 2nd overall in 2008, not LA.

Victim of his own success.

I can only truly disapprove of Holland’s cap management for one reason. Hossa vs Franzen. Kenny could have kept Hossa and gotten a king’s ransom for Mule after those two back-to-back playoff runs. Who knows? That coveted #1 D man could be our right now via the Franzen trade that never happened. The Bowman’s would have traded his ass.

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