Fixing this mess....

[LeftWinger 5,131]

Zetterberg should be joining them as part of their playoff run. Maybe he'll be a beast in some playoffs again.

Isn't a GM supposed to be more forward looking than fans and have better instincts? Yes, any fan back then would have kept Franzen over Hossa, but Holland gets paid the big bucks we don't to make moves we wouldn't be smart enough to make.

Not this fan. But that's an old debate!

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Not this fan. But that's an old debate!

You would have kept Mark Mowers over Franzen.

[Richdg 267]

Sharp was traded as a cap dump. No part of that move was "to keep the team in a position to win everything".

Yes it was. Bowman moved Sharp to free up cap to keep his core intact. he was being aggressive and forward thinking. Not sitting on his rump out of loyalty and hoping for better results. Cap dumps are often very strategic acts to maintain what a team has or improve a team.

[VM1138 1,921]

Zetterberg should be joining them as part of their playoff run. Maybe he'll be a beast in some playoffs again.

Isn't a GM supposed to be more forward looking than fans and have better instincts? Yes, any fan back then would have kept Franzen over Hossa, but Holland gets paid the big bucks we don't to make moves we wouldn't be smart enough to make.

I don't think anyone predicted it would be such a lopsided mistake to sign Franzen at the time. GMd aren't clairvoyant.

[jfranzen 51]

This is Hollands expression during the time-out after pulling Mrazek. It looks like the physical embodiment of his favorite phrase: "We like our team".

[Aethernum 276]

Those 1st round draft picks help, but the Hawks didn't win because of Toews, Keith and Kane alone. Every year people say their team will collapse due to cap pressure, yet every year (almost) they make a plethora of depth moves (plus the Hossa signing) that make them competitive year in, year out.

Sure, they shuffle a lot of players in and out and get replacement depth. But they are competitive year in and year out, no matter who their depth is, because of the common elements that come back year after year, and that's Toews, Keith, and Kane.

If you swapped Toews/Kane for Z/Dats, and replaced Kronwall with Keith, our roster would be the hands-down favorite to win the Cup this year. We would have the President's Trophy instead of Washington, and we would have already eliminated Tampa. It's not our depth that is the problem, and it's not Chicago's depth that keeps them successful.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Zetterberg should be joining them as part of their playoff run. Maybe he'll be a beast in some playoffs again.

Isn't a GM supposed to be more forward looking than fans and have better instincts? Yes, any fan back then would have kept Franzen over Hossa, but Holland gets paid the big bucks we don't to make moves we wouldn't be smart enough to make.

Pretty hard to predict injuries

[kliq 3,763]

Sure, they shuffle a lot of players in and out and get replacement depth. But they are competitive year in and year out, no matter who their depth is, because of the common elements that come back year after year, and that's Toews, Keith, and Kane.

If you swapped Toews/Kane for Z/Dats, and replaced Kronwall with Keith, our roster would be the hands-down favorite to win the Cup this year. We would have the President's Trophy instead of Washington, and we would have already eliminated Tampa. It's not our depth that is the problem, and it's not Chicago's depth that keeps them successful.

I agree with you to a degree, though I would call the "core" Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa and Crawford. (you could even argue Hjalmarsson as well)

Though, I think having just those 6 alone is not good enough to win a cup, but when put with good depth, and great coaching they become elite. If you had just those 6 and then pure crap, I couldn't see them winning 3 cups. Hell, if Crawford, and Neimi (first cup) didnt play well during their runs, and there is a chance that they have 0 cups right now.

My point is, I agree that their core is the main reason for their cups, and I agree that our aging core is a huge factor in our decline. But, depth does matter. If it didn't, Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, and Letang would be #1 seed making it to the finals every year.

[Jacksoni 418]

Pretty hard to predict injuries

*Cough*

Unless you were to, say, arrange an "accident" when Z, E and Kronwall were going somewhere. Nothing life threatening, just busted kneecaps during a robbery, rendering them unable to play.

The unknowing and innocent Ken Holland would thus be forced to put them on long term IR for the duration of their contracts.

This is of course all hypothetical. Ken Holland would not do such a thing. Right?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jacksoni

[jfranzen 51]

Just leave them unprotected when the expansion draft happens.

[Aethernum 276]

I agree with you to a degree, though I would call the "core" Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa and Crawford. (you could even argue Hjalmarsson as well)

Though, I think having just those 6 alone is not good enough to win a cup, but when put with good depth, and great coaching they become elite. If you had just those 6 and then pure crap, I couldn't see them winning 3 cups. Hell, if Crawford, and Neimi (first cup) didnt play well during their runs, and there is a chance that they have 0 cups right now.

My point is, I agree that their core is the main reason for their cups, and I agree that our aging core is a huge factor in our decline. But, depth does matter. If it didn't, Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, and Letang would be #1 seed making it to the finals every year.

I completely agree. My point, however, was that people generally view Holland/management with disdain because they won't bring in strong depth players like Yandle, Backes, or Lucic. If only we did that, I hear, then we would be cup contenders, and it's only because Bowman and others have the stones to make trades that they're so good.

The issue is, we could make the exact same moves that Chicago makes (acquiring the same players, that is) and we still wouldn't be anywhere near their level. Just as, ten years ago, they weren't anywhere near ours. The moves they make in free agency aren't what keep them contenders - it's the two $10.5M contracts that does. Their depth only matters as far as making them contenders because of their top-level guys.

Those top-level types of players that you need to truly be competitive for the Cup year in and year out are not the types of players you can get in free agency anymore. There are only a handful of players in today's NHL with that kind of impact - Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane/Toews, Karlsson, Tarasenko, Kopitar, etc. - and whether or not your team has one of those players is almost entirely up to chance and luck of the draft. Nobody knows who those players will be coming out of the draft, once you find out who they are they're locked up with a team for life, and you will almost never see them hit the free agency market. It's all about finding gems in the draft now, and cultivating that talent.

Our success/failure has nothing to do with what our management does or doesn't do as far as signing free agents or making trades - it's entirely based on whether we happen to be fortunate enough to have a handful of superstar level players in their prime. Right now, we don't. Chicago does. Give it a few years and I think we will (Larkin/Mrazek) and they won't.

So sure, would I love it if we signed some depth guys? You bet. But let's not pretend like we're only one or two minor signings away from a championship here. Unless Stamkos becomes a free agent - and I'd bet almost anything that he doesn't - and we can get him, there isn't an available player in the entire NHL who could make our team competitive right now. And mortgaging our future in the hopes of finding one isn't the path for long-term, sustainable success.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Aethernum

[Buppy 1,720]

I don't think anyone predicted it would be such a lopsided mistake to sign Franzen at the time. GMd aren't clairvoyant.

It wasn't even "such a lopsided mistake".

In 7 years, Hossa has 56 more goals and 143 more points than Franzen. 8 goals and 20 points per year for $1.3M in cap. The way he's looked this year, and with 5 years to go, they may find themselves wishing he had some concussion problems.

Yes it was. Bowman moved Sharp to free up cap to keep his core intact. he was being aggressive and forward thinking. Not sitting on his rump out of loyalty and hoping for better results. Cap dumps are often very strategic acts to maintain what a team has or improve a team.

Being pretty liberal there. Sharp was part of the core up until they traded him. Are we supposed to be impressed that he chose to trade Sharp instead of Toews or Kane? Probably would have been better to trade Hossa instead.

You made it a point that he was traded rather than not re-signed, as if they got something in return that would help them. They got Daley and Garbutt. Traded Garbutt for Sekac, who they promptly lost on waivers. Traded Daley for Scuderi, then Scuderi for Ehrhoff (retaining half of what they owed Suderi). So basically they traded $4.775M of Sharp's $5.9M hit for nothing.

Would have been better off if they could have let him walk.

Chicago has remained competitive despite their moves, not because of them. Bowman deserves to be applauded for maintaining a solid secondary cast, but Holland and the Wings have been doing the same thing for twice as long. It is far harder to replace your very best players. I'd venture to say it's impossible without a great deal of luck. We'll see how Bowman handles that when the time comes.

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

Looking at our cap situation I doubt that any smart GM would even take the job if KH was fired...

...

Buppy: Agreed. You need to be very very lucky to a) have cap space and b) superstar players available when your stars go out and c) be able to get them. Which is pretty much what the Wings are at, IF Pavel leaves, because Stamkos checks a) and b). But c)...don't see it. Most likely the Leafs will make him the highest paid player in the history of the game, by overpaying him as much as they possibly can, to get him. Like they did with Babs.

Edited April 21, 2016 by The Datsyukian Deke

[DickieDunn 2,571]

This team has too much talent to be this bad on the PP and PK. Blashcock needs to make major changes on how he runs the team or be gone, and they need to replace their assistant.

[kliq 3,763]

I completely agree. My point, however, was that people generally view Holland/management with disdain because they won't bring in strong depth players like Yandle, Backes, or Lucic. If only we did that, I hear, then we would be cup contenders, and it's only because Bowman and others have the stones to make trades that they're so good.

The issue is, we could make the exact same moves that Chicago makes (acquiring the same players, that is) and we still wouldn't be anywhere near their level. Just as, ten years ago, they weren't anywhere near ours. The moves they make in free agency aren't what keep them contenders - it's the two $10.5M contracts that does. Their depth only matters as far as making them contenders because of their top-level guys.

Those top-level types of players that you need to truly be competitive for the Cup year in and year out are not the types of players you can get in free agency anymore. There are only a handful of players in today's NHL with that kind of impact - Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane/Toews, Karlsson, Tarasenko, Kopitar, etc. - and whether or not your team has one of those players is almost entirely up to chance and luck of the draft. Nobody knows who those players will be coming out of the draft, once you find out who they are they're locked up with a team for life, and you will almost never see them hit the free agency market. It's all about finding gems in the draft now, and cultivating that talent.

Our success/failure has nothing to do with what our management does or doesn't do as far as signing free agents or making trades - it's entirely based on whether we happen to be fortunate enough to have a handful of superstar level players in their prime. Right now, we don't. Chicago does. Give it a few years and I think we will (Larkin/Mrazek) and they won't.

So sure, would I love it if we signed some depth guys? You bet. But let's not pretend like we're only one or two minor signings away from a championship here. Unless Stamkos becomes a free agent - and I'd bet almost anything that he doesn't - and we can get him, there isn't an available player in the entire NHL who could make our team competitive right now. And mortgaging our future in the hopes of finding one isn't the path for long-term, sustainable success.

Agreed, excellent post!

[Richdg 267]

It wasn't even "such a lopsided mistake".

In 7 years, Hossa has 56 more goals and 143 more points than Franzen. 8 goals and 20 points per year for $1.3M in cap. The way he's looked this year, and with 5 years to go, they may find themselves wishing he had some concussion problems.

Being pretty liberal there. Sharp was part of the core up until they traded him. Are we supposed to be impressed that he chose to trade Sharp instead of Toews or Kane? Probably would have been better to trade Hossa instead.

You made it a point that he was traded rather than not re-signed, as if they got something in return that would help them. They got Daley and Garbutt. Traded Garbutt for Sekac, who they promptly lost on waivers. Traded Daley for Scuderi, then Scuderi for Ehrhoff (retaining half of what they owed Suderi). So basically they traded $4.775M of Sharp's $5.9M hit for nothing.

Would have been better off if they could have let him walk.

Chicago has remained competitive despite their moves, not because of them. Bowman deserves to be applauded for maintaining a solid secondary cast, but Holland and the Wings have been doing the same thing for twice as long. It is far harder to replace your very best players. I'd venture to say it's impossible without a great deal of luck. We'll see how Bowman handles that when the time comes.

This was a smart savy move by Bowman. Sharp was 33 at the time and making 5.9 million per year. He just finished a season were his goal scoring dropped by 50% without missing any games and playing on the B hawks top line. Bowman also had to resign his younger stars. So he moved Sharp believing he was in decline. Well he was right. Sharpe went from 30+ goals with the hawks, to 17 goals to 16 goals this past season with the Stars. he is now 34. Now compare with say Z. Z is 2 years older and signed for 5 more years at a higher cap. His production has dropped at an equal rate as Sharp. Is there any chance at all the Holland will ever move Z? Even if it is the best thing for the team? That if the difference between a great GM trying to win and a average GM that is trying not to loose.

[chaps80 1,591]

*Cough*

Unless you were to, say, arrange an "accident" when Z, E and Kronwall were going somewhere. Nothing life threatening, just busted kneecaps during a robbery, rendering them unable to play.

The unknowing and innocent Ken Holland would thus be forced to put them on long term IR for the duration of their contracts.

This is of course all hypothetical. Ken Holland would not do such a thing. Right?

Before this season I thought different, but with the way Z is declining becoming more and more apparent, I think there may be a chance he retires before his contract is up. He'd be leaving alot of money on the table, but does he want to play 3rd/4th line minutes or be a healthy scratch in two or three years? Doesn't strike me as the type that would stick around for that, but I guess ya never know. Money can be a powerful thing.

Kronwall and Errorson I figure they're stuck with though. I'm sure Kronwall still thinks he's a top D-man.

[chaps80 1,591]

This was a smart savy move by Bowman. Sharp was 33 at the time and making 5.9 million per year. He just finished a season were his goal scoring dropped by 50% without missing any games and playing on the B hawks top line. Bowman also had to resign his younger stars. So he moved Sharp believing he was in decline. Well he was right. Sharpe went from 30+ goals with the hawks, to 17 goals to 16 goals this past season with the Stars. he is now 34. Now compare with say Z. Z is 2 years older and signed for 5 more years at a higher cap. His production has dropped at an equal rate as Sharp. Is there any chance at all the Holland will ever move Z? Even if it is the best thing for the team? That if the difference between a great GM trying to win and a average GM that is trying not to loose.

Even if Holland wanted to move Z, I doubt he could. No one's gonna want his 6 million+ cap hit for what he currently brings. Imagine 4-5 years from now. He'd have to retain most of his salary. lol

[LeftWinger 5,131]

You would have kept Mark Mowers over Franzen.

Actually I didn't mind the Franzen signing until July when they couldn't come to terms with Hossa. I think, if I recall, they were also negotiating with Hudler and offering him over $3.5M. So I don't think Holland had any intentions to re-sign Hossa at all. Once that realization also set in, that's when I went nuts...to say the least!

Even then Holland was picking his mediocre homegrown players over better ones.

[chaps80 1,591]

Hossa would have signed, but he wanted a longer term than Holland offered I think. Chicago gave it to him. 12 years!!

[chaps80 1,591]

Also, Hossa was kind of a bonus that fell in Holland's lap. He wasn't looking to sign anyone because he still had his cup winning roster together. Hossa's agent contacted him because he wanted to play for Detroit and when Holland had the option, he took it. He was the deadline aquisition that played all season.

[Richdg 267]

Even if Holland wanted to move Z, I doubt he could. No one's gonna want his 6 million+ cap hit for what he currently brings. Imagine 4-5 years from now. He'd have to retain most of his salary. lol

True but we had buyouts that were not used correctly. Z is also just an example. Next summer Kornwall becomes tradeable. if he rebounds a bit-which is possible if healthy, any chance he gets moved to a Cup contender? Nope.

What kills dynasty's and this is true in all sports, is they hang onto their old stars too long. It is ALWAYS better to trade a guy a year early than a year late.

[kliq 3,763]

True but we had buyouts that were not used correctly. Z is also just an example. Next summer Kornwall becomes tradeable. if he rebounds a bit-which is possible if healthy, any chance he gets moved to a Cup contender? Nope.

What kills dynasty's and this is true in all sports, is they hang onto their old stars too long. It is ALWAYS better to trade a guy a year early than a year late.

There is nothing wrong holding on to a few vets o help guide your young players. I agree that getting rid of E and Howard makes sense, but having Z and Kronwall on this team when guys like DD, Larkin etc. are coming up is not a bad thing. I dont ever want to put these kids in an Edmonton situation. The problem is when you hold on to too many guys, or guys with massive cap hits (ie. Toews/Kane in 6 years).

Also, with Z's back in the condition it is in, I would be shocked if he plays out his contract. He has his career ending on LTIR written all over it.

Edited April 21, 2016 by kliq

[chaps80 1,591]

True but we had buyouts that were not used correctly. Z is also just an example. Next summer Kornwall becomes tradeable. if he rebounds a bit-which is possible if healthy, any chance he gets moved to a Cup contender? Nope.

What kills dynasty's and this is true in all sports, is they hang onto their old stars too long. It is ALWAYS better to trade a guy a year early than a year late.

Agreed on everything. The whole Weiss thing was a disaster, but he also wasn't given a fair shot by Babcock. Tootoo should have been kept, but again, Babcock. Holland does have too much loyalty to certain players. They won him a cup almost ten years ago and he still thinks they're every bit as good.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Chicago has remained competitive despite their moves, not because of them. Bowman deserves to be applauded for maintaining a solid secondary cast, but Holland and the Wings have been doing the same thing for twice as long. It is far harder to replace your very best players. I'd venture to say it's impossible without a great deal of luck. We'll see how Bowman handles that when the time comes.

We've been building from the draft. It takes patience. I do believe we've been replacing our best players. I think Mrazek, Larkin, and Dekeyser are "core" worthy players. Maybe Mantha, Sverchnikov or AA step up to that level. Tatar and Nyquist are on the edge of that as well. I know people are down because we slumped in the second half, but we made the playoffs and we are deep into the rebuild currently. I think things look great for the future.

I mean who'll be left from the old guard? Z, Kronwall, and maybe Howard (though he's only 32) They'll be good for leadership even if they're not elite in the coming years (though, Howie could/should be traded). I don't understand why people want to tear it down completely.

This was a smart savy move by Bowman. Sharp was 33 at the time and making 5.9 million per year. He just finished a season were his goal scoring dropped by 50% without missing any games and playing on the B hawks top line. Bowman also had to resign his younger stars. So he moved Sharp believing he was in decline. Well he was right. Sharpe went from 30+ goals with the hawks, to 17 goals to 16 goals this past season with the Stars. he is now 34. Now compare with say Z. Z is 2 years older and signed for 5 more years at a higher cap. His production has dropped at an equal rate as Sharp. Is there any chance at all the Holland will ever move Z? Even if it is the best thing for the team? That if the difference between a great GM trying to win and a average GM that is trying not to loose.

They moved Sharp because they were in a cap crunch not because he was declining. I'm sure they would have kept him if they could fit him in.

And what's up with the false stats?

Sharp had 20 goals and 55 pts with the Stars this year. That's UP from his 16 goals and 43 pts with the Hawks the year before. Did you lie just to force your argument?

Also, in the 2014-15 season when his goals dipped to 16, he didn't play the full season as you say, and only played 68 due to injury. Here's a link:

https://www.nhl.com/news/blackhawks-forward-sharp-will-miss-3-4-weeks/c-737728

Edited April 21, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk