Can We Please Stop Putting Teams In Unsustainable Cities?

[kliq 3,763]

On 11/22/2016 at 2:32 AM, Richdg said:

Wrong. GR is bigger than Buffalo, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and QC.

What are you talking about? Are you talking square miles or something? its not even close.

Here are population of cities you mentioned as of 2011-2013 because I didn't feel like doing research beyond Google:

Grand Rapids - 192,294

Buffalo - 258,959

Edmonton - 812,200

Calgary - 1.097 million

Winnipeg - 663,615

Ottawa - 883,391

QC - 516,625

The NHL is not going to Grand Rapids because a couple rich families live there.

[Richdg 267]

4 hours ago, kliq said:

What are you talking about? Are you talking square miles or something? its not even close.

Here are population of cities you mentioned as of 2011-2013 because I didn't feel like doing research beyond Google:

Grand Rapids - 192,294

Buffalo - 258,959

Edmonton - 812,200

Calgary - 1.097 million

Winnipeg - 663,615

Ottawa - 883,391

QC - 516,625

The NHL is not going to Grand Rapids because a couple rich families live there.

Look at the metro area, there are 1.45 million + in the GR area, that is the number that matters. Kent County is over 900K then add in Ottawa and Muskegon. Again a larger population than all of those cities. Calgary is about 1.25 million and Buffalo is about 1.2 million. Same is true for Detroit. Its not the 700K that lives in the city that matters, its the 4 million in the metro area.

[kickazz 5,459]

NHL team in GR might be profitable for them but it would be the dumbest thing for fans. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,763]

1 hour ago, Richdg said:

Look at the metro area, there are 1.45 million + in the GR area, that is the number that matters. Kent County is over 900K then add in Ottawa and Muskegon. Again a larger population than all of those cities. Calgary is about 1.25 million and Buffalo is about 1.2 million. Same is true for Detroit. Its not the 700K that lives in the city that matters, its the 4 million in the metro area.

Your initial quote was " Wrong. GR is bigger than Buffalo, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and QC."  you didn't say anything about "surrounding area".

If we are going to go there, cool. Here are the numbers according to Google for each of those cities and the "surrounding area". 

Grand Rapids - 1,005,648

Buffalo - 1,135,509

Edmonton -1,159,869

Calgary - 1,214,839

Winnipeg - 782,000

Ottawa - 1,236,324

QC - 806,400

This really doesn't matter, but my point is that you are just throwing out statements regardless of whether they are true or not to make a point. When you start out a statement to someone with "Wrong", you have to expect to be called out if you are not right.

It started as all 6 of these cities were smaller then GR period, then when that was proved wrong it became the "metropolitan areas", now that is proved wrong as the GR area is only larger then 2 of the 6 you stated.

Either way, I'm done with this debate. I would be shocked if Grand Rapids ever got an NHL team. 

[kickazz 5,459]

People in Metro areas of GR are life long Red Wings fans. And that won't change. A GR team wouldn't be nearly as popular. Besides, the surrounding areas there aren't as wealthy as metro Detroit people are, you likely wouldn't see sell out crowds.

They might have a population, but hockey games are expensive. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,763]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

People in Metro areas of GR are life long Red Wings fans. And that won't change. A GR team wouldn't be nearly as popular. Besides, the surrounding areas there aren't as wealthy as metro Detroit people are, you likely wouldn't see sell out crowds.

They might have a population, but hockey games are expensive. 

Agreed. It would be like if an NHL team came to Windsor (ha!)  I wouldn't give a s*** about them as there is no way I would stop being a Wings fan.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

15 hours ago, Barrie said:

I never would have thought of Grand Rapids as an NHL market, interesting. I wonder if it would be similar to Hartford, being too close to 2 major hockey markets, and would fail?

The next team will be in the West most likely, so it's 16/16. There's some decent markets left in the west, Seattle, Portland, KC, Salt Lake City, and Houston.

Hamilton won't get a team. I live 10 minutes from the arena in Hamilton, it was built in the mid-80's, and it's like The Joe with the common concession area. We know what it's like having to deal with everyone using the same bathrooms and food lines. They'd need to build a new arena... If Southern Ontario gets another team it would be north of Toronto, so it doesn't effect the Sabres. 15% of the Sabres fan base is from Ontario.

I'm not expecting much from Vegas. I'd assume they'll have attendance problems, and they'll be giving away tickets at the Casinos to fill the arena.

KC has the fanciest arena, but the city seems to have given up about getting an NHL or NBA team.  The arena makes plenty of money, as not having a tenant has freed space for other entertainment events.

I don't see hockey working in Portland, Salt Lake City or Houston.  Seattle is an interest idea, but would they rather have an NHL team than replace the NBA team they lost?

[Richdg 267]

10 hours ago, kliq said:

Your initial quote was " Wrong. GR is bigger than Buffalo, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and QC."  you didn't say anything about "surrounding area".

If we are going to go there, cool. Here are the numbers according to Google for each of those cities and the "surrounding area". 

Grand Rapids - 1,005,648

Buffalo - 1,135,509

Edmonton -1,159,869

Calgary - 1,214,839

Winnipeg - 782,000

Ottawa - 1,236,324

QC - 806,400

This really doesn't matter, but my point is that you are just throwing out statements regardless of whether they are true or not to make a point. When you start out a statement to someone with "Wrong", you have to expect to be called out if you are not right.

It started as all 6 of these cities were smaller then GR period, then when that was proved wrong it became the "metropolitan areas", now that is proved wrong as the GR area is only larger then 2 of the 6 you stated.

Either way, I'm done with this debate. I would be shocked if Grand Rapids ever got an NHL team. 

You are wrong. No one ever refers to just the city named when talking about city size. if all we were talking about was just the city of Detroit, the NHL would strip it of its team! The city is a dump and 90%+ of all the fans that go to the game live outside the city limits. So do the players. Which of the 7 borroughs is actual NYC? Manhattan? Queens? Brooklyn? Staten island? Bronx? The answer is all of them.

All the leagues look at the metro area when placing teams. They want to know how many people are potential ticket buyers and TV viewers within a 50 mile radius. That is the number that matters most.

Here is a helpful link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area#List_of_combined_statistical_areas

GR is just behind hartford, ahead of OKC, memphis, and Buffalo.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Richdg said:

You are wrong. No one ever refers to just the city named when talking about city size. if all we were talking about was just the city of Detroit, the NHL would strip it of its team! The city is a dump and 90%+ of all the fans that go to the game live outside the city limits. So do the players. Which of the 7 borroughs is actual NYC? Manhattan? Queens? Brooklyn? Staten island? Bronx? The answer is all of them.

All the leagues look at the metro area when placing teams. They want to know how many people are potential ticket buyers and TV viewers within a 50 mile radius. That is the number that matters most.

Here is a helpful link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area#List_of_combined_statistical_areas

GR is just behind hartford, ahead of OKC, memphis, and Buffalo.

You keep telling people they are wrong but it seems to me as though you're a pretty uninformed individual. City is a dump? Detroit, specifically Detroit around Joe Louis and Riverfront is probably one of the richest parts of Michigan. The "the dump" crap is just word of mouth nonsense people like you keep narrating. Just like any city (whether it's New York, LA), Detroit too has bad alleys and neighborhoods. (Say hello to giant cockroaches and ratsthe size of a human baby in New York)

When the team was originally formed and when they played in Olympia, most of the fans were FROM Detroit. There was no metro lmao. Most people living in "metro" area surrounding Detroit moved out only recently like the last few decades because those areas grew. But this team was started, specificaly under the NHL almost a hundred years ago when the population resided in the actual City of Detroit. The metro areas were nothing but farm land lol. 

Additionally, any place outside southeast Michigan is more closer to a rural environment. So while Grand Rapids itself might be more of a city, it's metro area is more dispersed in populaton along with a lower per capital income for families. You compare Calgary, a Canadian town to Grand Rapids. Do you know the difference between a Canadian city that recognizes Hockey as it's main sport to an American city that doesn't? Even if Grand Rapids has as many people as Calgary, most of those people would not be interested in a Hockey team as they already have the Wings.

Edited November 25, 2016 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

If we go by the "combined statistical area" the Richdg linked then Las Vegas definitely deserves an NHL team. They are 27th on the list which is higher than a lot of NBA and NHL teams. 

[kliq 3,763]

3 hours ago, Richdg said:

You are wrong. No one ever refers to just the city named when talking about city size. if all we were talking about was just the city of Detroit, the NHL would strip it of its team! The city is a dump and 90%+ of all the fans that go to the game live outside the city limits. So do the players. Which of the 7 borroughs is actual NYC? Manhattan? Queens? Brooklyn? Staten island? Bronx? The answer is all of them.

All the leagues look at the metro area when placing teams. They want to know how many people are potential ticket buyers and TV viewers within a 50 mile radius. That is the number that matters most.

Here is a helpful link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area#List_of_combined_statistical_areas

GR is just behind hartford, ahead of OKC, memphis, and Buffalo.

There is nothing I can add to what kickazz already said.

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

You keep telling people they are wrong but it seems to me as though you're a pretty uninformed individual.

When he says that it just makes me laugh. I think of Alec Baldwin doing Trump on SNL.

[kickazz 5,459]

I mean I'm just going based of personal experience of Grand Rapids (and some numbers I looked up). My sister worked there for the last 6 years at Spectrum Hospital. Once you leave the Grand Rapids area, there's not much to do. The "metro area" is a bunch of old conservative people (hilarious people btw). The metro area of Detroit consists of places like Novi, Ann Arbor, Northville, Plymouth, Dearborn etc. All these places are where people who work at Ford, Chysler, GM, QuicknLoans, University of Michigan, Wayne State University etc live. It's a completely different demographic. 

I can't imagine an NHL team being sustainable there. I mean it might be a "decent" market but it would be nothing like the Detroit, Chicago, New York, or any of the Canadian markets. I think Las Vegas actually has a better chance. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 5,131]

I live in West Michigan, I am but an hour northwest of GR (Oceana County.) Although the population is there, and as diverse as it is, I can pretty much guarantee the area could not support an NHL team. Sure, there are some rabid fans like myself throughout West Michigan, there are fans in Norton Shores because of Abby, and some in GR because of Glenny, outside of Kent County, there isn't too much youth interest in Hockey. Even in Muskegon, it's teams of kids all over the western counties, then the next set of teams are 70 miles north in Scottville (Mason County) and they're, again, teams made up of kids from all over. I live 40 miles north of Muskegon and my kids could go either way to play, 40 mile drive or 30 miles, if there was more interest, you would think there'd be something closer for kids in our area. That being said, as much as the population is in the Muskegon area, they still have to cypher kids from miles away just to have enough to participate in a league. They do have The Lumberjacks of the USHL, and they're fun to watch, but rare is a sellout.

I'd love to see GR have a NHL team from a personal standpoint, but the interest from the area is just not there.

[Dabura 12,232]

Honestly, I like Vegas's chances. It'll be their first major pro sports team, the city's a major tourist destination, the "hub" of the city never sleeps (having been to Vegas several times, I can personally confirm this), etc. This might turn into something special.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Dabura

[kickazz 5,459]

^ That and people visiting Vegas love to spend $$. Hockey will become part of a "night out" before they hit up Hakkasan club lol

Edited November 25, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Grand Rapids wouldn't have enough support to sustain an NHL team.  Too many would be Wings fans first and GR fans second.

 

Like I've said before, Vegas is going to flop.  Too many residents work nights and/or don't make a lot of money, and it's too much of an event town.  People go there to gamble and party, not see a hockey game.  Sure, hotels and casinos might buy a ton of season tickets and a few suites as promotional stuff, but most of them would likely to go unused.

 

The Coyotes might work now that they're moving back to Phoenix, but it's 50-50 at best.  Winnipeg I think will fail once the novelty of having "their Jets" back wears off.  I think Atlanta could have worked if they had been winning, and it disgusts me how quick Buttman moved them after refusing to let the Coyotes move for years.  Miami has troube supporting anyone other than the Dolphins, unless the Heat are winning, I don't see the Panthers having long term success there.  The Lightning have a decent core group of fans, but they're always going to struggle too.

 

The reality is that there aren't 30 cities with enough hockey fans to support them all.  It's too much of a niche sport, and a lot, if not most, minorities think it's just a white boy sport.  The other issue is that unlike basketball or soccer where you need a ball and a place to play, it's expensive to get into.  Kids who play grow up to be the fans.  No kids playing, not as many fans.

[kickazz 5,459]

8 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Grand Rapids wouldn't have enough support to sustain an NHL team.  Too many would be Wings fans first and GR fans second.

 

Like I've said before, Vegas is going to flop.  Too many residents work nights and/or don't make a lot of money, and it's too much of an event town.  People go there to gamble and party, not see a hockey game.  Sure, hotels and casinos might buy a ton of season tickets and a few suites as promotional stuff, but most of them would likely to go unused.

At first I thought the same. I don't think the games will be popular for the actual people who live there but more so a tourist attraction. Boxing and UFC are major hubs for Vegas. I assume they're trying to do the same with hockey to a smaller extent. 

The other advantage for Vegas is that it's a huge betting place. People will be able to bet big money on hockey games and actually go attend them. For instance if it's Vegas vs. Red Wings, as a tourist I'd go put money on the Wings (I usually do when I visit), but the added cherry on top is, I'd actually go and watch the game. They get close to 50 million visitors a year in that city. That's a lot of potential ticket buyers. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Boxing and UFC are more of an event than a hockey game though.  Multiple fights, and Vegas is one of the few places in the US that hosts the big names.  

I have no doubt that most of the seats for hockey will be sold, at least at first, but I doubt more than half of them will get used.  I know for me going to a Wings game would be down the list of things I'd want to spend my money on if I was there.

 

That's ignoring the fact that most teams get the vast majority of their money from their own fans, not visitors.  How many people living there would actually be hockey fans?

Edited November 25, 2016 by DickieDunn

[kickazz 5,459]

No doubt that the Vegas team won't have as many home town fans as say original 6 or even the other up and coming teams like LA or Tampa. But purely speaking in terms of business, this team will bring in good money for the NHL and Vegas itself. If that keeps up, the team will stay regardless of how many fans they have. 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

10 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Boxing and UFC are more of an event than a hockey game though.  Multiple fights, and Vegas is one of the few places in the US that hosts the big names.  

I have no doubt that most of the seats for hockey will be sold, at least at first, but I doubt more than half of them will get used.  I know for me going to a Wings game would be down the list of things I'd want to spend my money on if I was there.

That's ignoring the fact that most teams get the vast majority of their money from their own fans, not visitors.  How many people living there would actually be hockey fans?

Boxing's popularity is at or near an all time low. I know very little about UFC, but I feel like it's audience is a small segment. If tourists have the option of hockey games I think they'll be pretty well attended.

But anyway, pretty much everything is sold out in Vegas, from my experience. From my one trip there many years ago, we went to a sold out Carrot Top show and a sold out Magic show even though we were enthusiastic about neither because every show/event in Vegas was sold out unless you booked far in advance. I think hockey would be sold out and the tickets will be pretty well used either sold or as they're passed around as hotel/casino perks.

As for your one comment: "I know for me going to a Wings game would be down the list of things I'd want to spend my money on if I was there." That seems really weird to me. Hockey's my favourite sport and Wings are my favourite team - I feel like most people on the forum are like that. I'd jump at the opportunity to see them, but besides that, All the Celine Dion/magic show/elvis impersonator/ forms of entertainment that were around were pretty lame in my opinion - hockey would have been a much bigger draw for me.

Edited November 26, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

Lol right. I'd watch a Red Wings game live at a Vegas venue in a heart beat.

 

[chaps80 1,591]

On 24/11/2016 at 8:22 PM, Barrie said:

 

Hamilton won't get a team. I live 10 minutes from the arena in Hamilton, it was built in the mid-80's, and it's like The Joe with the common concession area. We know what it's like having to deal with everyone using the same bathrooms and food lines. They'd need to build a new arena.

Hamilton is a cess pit.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

It's pretty clear hear in Seattle that the Sonics are coming back and likely a hockey team along with them. Adding another western team (including vegas) will even up the conferences as well. Bout time.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Welcome to LGW.

Will Seattle get a re-location, or does the NBA plan on a expansion (even though I live in the Milwaukee area - I could care less about the Bucks).

Seattle would have an instant rival with Vancouver.

Thanks,

No idea. Haven't followed basketball since the Pistons drafted Darko. However, big moves being made here to build a new downtown arena that can accommodate both basketball and hockey. Thinking the NHL would like to expand again in order to even the conferences, but that's just me speculating (please don't give me the yotes).

Too bad the Nucks are a complete mess

[FireCaptain 563]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:40 AM, Hockeymom1960 said:

There's a reason why no pro sports teams have ever had a team in Vegas

And now there's 2, apparently.