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Dabura

2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

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10 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

:sigh: we ARE NOT parting with AA :rolleyes:

If Yzerman wanted to deal AA, we'd have a #1 D right now.  Not unless he had ZERO interest in Trouba, because AA and a pick (our 2nd) would've more than had Winnipeg drooling.

I´m really interested in the Rangers asking price for Trouba now, because they will have a few difficult decisions to make with the signings of Buchnevich,Trouba and Deangelo still due and 8 million in cap space. We will all know more after the arbitration hearings at the end of july.

the nice little extra with the Rangers cap situation is the fact that they have this guy on the roster for 2 years and 4.35 mill per and a no trade clause, what was his name?

I think it was Brendan Smith:tease:

Edited by ely s

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14 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

:sigh: we ARE NOT parting with AA :rolleyes:

If Yzerman wanted to deal AA, we'd have a #1 D right now.  Not unless he had ZERO interest in Trouba, because AA and a pick (our 2nd) would've more than had Winnipeg drooling.

Would you part with AA for sayyyy, Owen Tippett?? 

https://therattrick.com/2019/07/07/florida-panthers-should-dale-tallon-consider-trading-owen-tippett/

 

 

:P

 

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39 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Bummed to see Tyler Wright leave, thought he did a pretty good job with our drafting over the years.  REALLY bummed to see Kris Draper taking over for Wright. 

Why? Serious question.

Do we even know which players Wright and other scouts have been directly responsible for? Wright was the director of amateur scouting, but there are scouts designated to different areas across the globe. His first draft with the Red Wings was 2014. Larkin was our first selection in the Wright era. Not a bad start, but was he the man pushing hard for Larkin? Who knows... What has he done since then?

Why don't you want Draper promoted into that role? Any reason specifically? Or you don't like it just because "old buys club", more promoting from within?... Everything I've seen and heard on Drapes is that he wants to draft speed and skill. Everything I've seen and heard on Wright is that he wants to draft size and character. Of course there's more to it than that, but I'd take the former over the latter...

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11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Why? Serious question.

Do we even know which players Wright and other scouts have been directly responsible for? Wright was the director of amateur scouting, but there are scouts designated to different areas across the globe. His first draft with the Red Wings was 2014. Larkin was our first selection in the Wright era. Not a bad start, but was he the man pushing hard for Larkin? Who knows... What has he done since then?

Why don't you want Draper promoted into that role? Any reason specifically? Or you don't like it just because "old buys club", more promoting from within?... Everything I've seen and heard on Drapes is that he wants to draft speed and skill. Everything I've seen and heard on Wright is that he wants to draft size and character. Of course there's more to it than that, but I'd take the former over the latter...

1.  Given that he was the "Director of Amateur Scouting" my guess is that other than the GM he was the one "directly responsible" for ALL the selections since 2014.  IMO they haven't been too bad, and in some cases they were superb. 

2. I don't want Draper to replace Tyler Wright as Director of Amateur Scouting because  Kris Draper has never been a full time scout at any level.  When Wright was hired he came with a track record, he had a long history of working with prospects in Columbus.  And considering the Jackets drafted and developed well during that time, you could reasonably infer that he knows what he's doing when it comes to prospects.  None of that is possible with Draper because, as previously mentioned, he's never been involved with prospects at all.  He was the Assistant to the GM.  I'd be less worried if they'd promoted Jiri Fischer (for example) to Wright's old position because he's been working with prospects for years. 

Edited by kipwinger

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8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

1.  Given that he was the "Director of Amateur Scouting" my guess is that other than the GM he was the one "directly responsible" for ALL the selections since 2014.  IMO they haven't been too bad, and in some cases they were superb. 

2. I don't want Draper to replace Tyler Wright as Director of Amateur Scouting because  Kris Draper has never been a full time scout at any level.  When Wright was hired he came with a track record, he had a long history of working with prospects in Columbus.  And considering the Jackets drafted and developed well during that time, you could reasonably infer that he knows what he's doing when it comes to prospects.  None of that is possible with Draper because, as previously mentioned, he's never been involved with prospects at all.  He was the Assistant to the GM.  I'd be less worried if they'd promoted Jiri Fischer (for example) to Wright's old position because he's been working with prospects for years. 

I disagree with your first point. Wright is just one man with a voice. He may have the loudest voice, but there are plenty other voices at the table when they get together leading up to the draft. I'm sure he allows each individual scout to say their piece, and I'm sure there are times when a scout says, "we have to take this guy" and he and the general manager listen.

I think, other than Larkin and the 2017 draft, where a couple players (Zadina and Veleno) fell to us, our drafting since 2014 has been average at best. I'm not going to list every selection and who we passed on, but there were quite a few misses over the years. Some more obvious than others.

Regarding your second point, I highly doubt Draper has had as little to do with drafting over the past several years as you seem to think. He was assistant to Holland, and I'm sure Draper was in on scouting meetings and even done some scouting of his own. I'm not saying I love the move, but I don't hate it either. I'll reserve judgment until Draper proves to be incompetent. But like I said above, I'm sure, just like any good "director" of scouting, he will rely heavily on his area scouts and get plenty of input and opinions from everyone else within the organization.

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2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree with your first point. Wright is just one man with a voice. He may have the loudest voice, but there are plenty other voices at the table when they get together leading up to the draft. I'm sure he allows each individual scout to say their piece, and I'm sure there are times when a scout says, "we have to take this guy" and he and the general manager listen.

I think, other than Larkin and the 2017 draft, where a couple players (Zadina and Veleno) fell to us, our drafting since 2014 has been average at best. I'm not going to list every selection and who we passed on, but there were quite a few misses over the years. Some more obvious than others.

Regarding your second point, I highly doubt Draper has had as little to do with drafting over the past several years as you seem to think. He was assistant to Holland, and I'm sure Draper was in on scouting meetings and even done some scouting of his own. I'm not saying I love the move, but I don't hate it either. I'll reserve judgment until Draper proves to be incompetent. But like I said above, I'm sure, just like any good "director" of scouting, he will rely heavily on his area scouts and get plenty of input and opinions from everyone else within the organization.

Mkay

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43 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Bummed to see Tyler Wright leave, thought he did a pretty good job with our drafting over the years.  REALLY bummed to see Kris Draper taking over for Wright. 

I dunno that Wright is a big loss, tbh. Looking back on the drafts Wright ran (2014-2019), I think the best thing I can say about our amateur scouting under Wright is that it was pretty good at finding decent players; there aren't many clear mistakes and there aren't many clear home runs and there are a lot of Christoffer Ehns. In other words: what you'd expect from a competent director of amateur scouting.

Of course, it's still too early to really reach any kind of authoritative verdict on two or three of those drafts. For example, we're still not sure what we have in Cholowski and Hronek and they were selected in 2016, which was only the third draft of the Wright era. So, I think it's fair to say the jury's out and won't return for at least a couple more years.

Having said all that, Wright could be better suited for Edmonton's situation. The Oilers have two stars in McDavid & Draisaitl and Bouchard or Broberg could become a 1D at some point down the road. All they need, then, is a steady supply of serviceable NHLers with some overachievers sprinkled in. They don't need gamechangers the way we need them.

I'm basically agnostic about Draper; I can't point to something and say, "This was(n't) a Draper decision" or "This has Draper's fingerprints all over it."

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10 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I dunno that Wright is a big loss, tbh. Looking back on the drafts Wright ran (2014-2019), I think the best thing I can say about our amateur scouting under Wright is that it was pretty good at finding decent players; there aren't many clear mistakes and there aren't many clear home runs and there are a lot of Christoffer Ehns. In other words: what you'd expect from a competent director of amateur scouting.

Of course, it's still too early to really reach any kind of authoritative verdict on two or three of those drafts. For example, we're still not sure what we have in Cholowski and Hronek and they were selected in 2016, which was only the third draft of the Wright era. So, I think it's fair to say the jury's out and won't return for at least a couple more years.

Having said all that, Wright could be better suited for Edmonton's situation. The Oilers have two stars in McDavid & Draisaitl and Bouchard or Broberg could become a 1D at some point down the road. All they need, then, is a steady supply of serviceable NHLers with some overachievers sprinkled in. They don't need gamechangers the way we need them.

I'm basically agnostic about Draper; I can't point to something and say, "This was(n't) a Draper decision" or "This has Draper's fingerprints all over it."

I don't know what to think about you.  Every year after the draft you gush about how good we did, but now you're not really sure if the guy doing the drafting is a big loss.  He drafted Larkin, Svech, Cholo, Hronek, Rasmussen, Zadina, Berggren, Veleno, McIsaac, Lindstrom, and Seider.  They seem a bit better than "a lot of Christopher Ehns" to me.  Maybe some of them don't turn out, but conservatively we probably have a top line 1C (franchise cornerstone and future Captain), two or three top six forwards, and two or three top four defensemen in 5 drafts.  No too shabby. 

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20 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Is it OK to think Wright did a pretty good job and also think that he's totally replaceable as well? 

 

Well you're not going to go to jail for thinking so, but it's basically fan logic.  Unless you're replacing someone with someone else who's better then it's usually a bad idea.  I wouldn't be upset if Yzerman replaced Wright with Al Murray, because Murray has been awesome at the draft.  But replacing him with someone who's never even scouted, let alone ran a full, global, scouting program or draft should probably be viewed as a negative.

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55 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't know what to think about you.  Every year after the draft you gush about how good we did, but now you're not really sure if the guy doing the drafting is a big loss.  He drafted Larkin, Svech, Cholo, Hronek, Rasmussen, Zadina, Berggren, Veleno, McIsaac, Lindstrom, and Seider.  They seem a bit better than "a lot of Christopher Ehns" to me.  Maybe some of them don't turn out, but conservatively we probably have a top line 1C (franchise cornerstone and future Captain), two or three top six forwards, and two or three top four defensemen in 5 drafts.  No too shabby. 

I'm not saying we didn't get good players under Wright. I'm asking if [name pulled from a hat] likely would not have been able to match or outperform Wright's track record with the Wings.

Larkin was a home run, though a lot of people had him going right around where we took him.

Svechnikov is starting to feel like a mistake, though he's had s*** luck with injuries and that hasn't helped his cause one bit.

Cholowski and Hronek are still question marks, though the early returns are very promising.

Rasmussen is a big question mark.

Zadina's probably going to be a very good NHLer, but there are thousands of hockey people who would've taken him where we took him.

Veleno fell into our laps. I give Wright credit for not overthinking that pick (same with Zadina), but at the end of the day the jury's out on Veleno (same with Zadina).

Berggren and McIsaac are question marks who went right around where they were projected to go.

Lindstrom could be Mattias Ekholm or he could be Alexey Marchenko.

Seider was an Yzerman pick.

So, I dunno, you tell me: Are we looking at a big loss? And look at the lesser names we've picked. Does that track record scream "Very smart" or "Not very smart" or "About what you'd expect from your average director of amateur scouting"? I lean towards "About what you'd expect."

I think the Wings drafted pretty well under Wright. There were two or three drafts that I was really pleased with at the time. I just don't feel like we're losing anything terribly special in Wright. I could be wrong.

Edited by Dabura

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4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree with your first point. Wright is just one man with a voice. He may have the loudest voice, but there are plenty other voices at the table when they get together leading up to the draft. I'm sure he allows each individual scout to say their piece, and I'm sure there are times when a scout says, "we have to take this guy" and he and the general manager listen.

I think, other than Larkin and the 2017 draft, where a couple players (Zadina and Veleno) fell to us, our drafting since 2014 has been average at best. I'm not going to list every selection and who we passed on, but there were quite a few misses over the years. Some more obvious than others.

Regarding your second point, I highly doubt Draper has had as little to do with drafting over the past several years as you seem to think. He was assistant to Holland, and I'm sure Draper was in on scouting meetings and even done some scouting of his own. I'm not saying I love the move, but I don't hate it either. I'll reserve judgment until Draper proves to be incompetent. But like I said above, I'm sure, just like any good "director" of scouting, he will rely heavily on his area scouts and get plenty of input and opinions from everyone else within the organization.

Probably to blame for Rasmussen lol , good riddens for that alone  ... basically told to be quiet this draft and be a good boy , and outside veleno and zadina who fell to them like you said

what’s so great?

 

mcisaac ,regula,petruzzelli,cholowski? Can’t see too many guys he might have had his hands on last five years 

 

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

I'm not saying we didn't get good players under Wright. I'm asking if [name pulled from a hat] likely would not have been able to match or outperform Wright's track record with the Wings.

Larkin was a home run, though a lot of people had him going right around where we took him.

Svechnikov is starting to feel like a mistake, though he's had s*** luck with injuries and that hasn't helped his cause one bit.

Cholowski and Hronek are still question marks, though the early returns are very promising.

Rasmussen is a big question mark.

Zadina's probably going to be a very good NHLer, but there are thousands of hockey people who would've taken him where we took him.

Veleno fell into our laps. I give Wright credit for not overthinking that pick (same with Zadina), but at the end of the day the jury's out on Veleno (same with Zadina).

Berggren and McIsaac are question marks who went right around where they were projected to go.

Lindstrom could be Mattias Ekholm or he could be Alexey Marchenko.

Seider was an Yzerman pick.

So, I dunno, you tell me: Are we looking at a big loss? And look at the lesser names we've picked. Does that track record scream "Very smart" or "Not very smart" or "About what you'd expect from your average director of amateur scouting"? I lean towards "About what you'd expect."

I think the Wings drafted pretty well under Wright. There were two or three drafts that I was really pleased with at the time. I just don't feel like we're losing anything terribly special in Wright. I could be wrong.

Would say he didn’t have nearly as much intake on the euro guys like berggren,hronek.lindstrom,larsson,kivenmaki etc..... 

and id say maybe outside his apparently like for tuomisto we told him to be a nice boy this year and went with our euro scouts this draft 

anyways I think it was time for a change , I’m glad he’s gone and hopefully he’ll enjoy edmonton

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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My guess is the Wings terminated Holland and all of his cronies to allow them to keep whatever they still had coming to them financially.  They used smoke and mirrors out of respect for the tire kicker, but he was canned too.  Out with the old, in with the new.  Yzerman era underway.

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4 minutes ago, Wings3:16 said:

For what it's worth, I read a couple of times Kris Draper pushed hard to draft Tyler Bertuzzi.

Must be because he's Todd's nephew because Draper has never scouted before...

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7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Well you're not going to go to jail for thinking so, but it's basically fan logic.  Unless you're replacing someone with someone else who's better then it's usually a bad idea.  I wouldn't be upset if Yzerman replaced Wright with Al Murray, because Murray has been awesome at the draft.  But replacing him with someone who's never even scouted, let alone ran a full, global, scouting program or draft should probably be viewed as a negative.

Draper's the assistant GM and he's been scouting for years. You think he was off watching mountain goats f*** or something? 

I liked some of Wright's picks. Certainly a lot more than McDonnel's (Kindl, Smith, Jurco, McCollum, Sproul, Ferraro) final batch before he blew town with Nill. But Yzerman obviously has other ideas for this team yuh? 

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

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9 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Draper's the assistant GM and he's been scouting for years. You think he was off watching mountain goats f*** or something? 

I liked some of Wright's picks. Certainly a lot more than McDonnel's (Kindl, Smith, Jurco, McCollum, Sproul, Ferraro) final batch before he blew town with Nill. But Yzerman obviously has other ideas for this team yuh? 

yikes

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Well, Wright didn't set the World on fire here.

Yes, the 2014 Draft netted us Larkin. But that pick would have been made by my grandmother and she is dead. Others in the 2014 draft class turned out to be busts with Christopher Ehn maybe the exception. Cholowski and Hronek (both from 2016) were good picks. But from 2017 we didn't sign 5 of our 11 picks after only two years. Hardly a vote of confidence. And the jury is still out on Rasmussen. 2018 looks more promising with Veleno, Zadina and possibly Berggren and McIsaac coming up.
 

Wrights tenure had been reasonable good here, but he also isn't the Messiah Holland is taking with him. He also had the assets in several high picks to make him look good and failed to make use of them in 2017. It's far from sure that his drafting will bring us the successful rebuild and that is what we should measure him by.

And if Yzerman trust Drapes who am I to argue with that, without having seen Drapes organizing his own draft.

 

 

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Maybe we're making a mountain out of a mole hill. We don't know what happened behind closed doors and could be as basic as Wright wanted to pursue another opportunity somewhere else and "firing" him meets some stipulation in his contact that nets him some sort of payout.

"We fire you, you get a little something something and in turn you accidently kick something our way, we shake hands and everyone leaves happy."

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17 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Draper's the assistant GM and he's been scouting for years. You think he was off watching mountain goats f*** or something? 

I liked some of Wright's picks. Certainly a lot more than McDonnel's (Kindl, Smith, Jurco, McCollum, Sproul, Ferraro) final batch before he blew town with Nill. But Yzerman obviously has other ideas for this team yuh? 

I never was a Babcock hater but a couple of those guys showed promise and I have to wonder if he wasn’t trying to make players into something they were not. You have to let young players play to their strength and at the same time try to trim the deficiencies down. 

Imagine if they wouldn’t have let Yzerman be the type of offensive player he was when he was young. 

Let the kids be the kind of players they are and when they are mature enough you mold them to the players you need them to be. 

Edited by Akakabuto

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