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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2568500 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 05 February 2015 - 01:29 PM

They never said Babcock is coming ...babcocks is there first choice as a new coach ... Do you blame them?

And they always end up going to teams that have a had time attracting free agents ... Wonder why


Ok, let's be more systematic about this.  What holes do you see in Franson's game that make you think he's not worth that kind of money and term?  And can you think of any comparable defensemen/comparable contracts that you think are more realistic for a guy like him?

#2568494 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 05 February 2015 - 12:52 PM

Whoever said we don't have space for a big contract is wrong. We've got $8 million in space right now. And we are relying on cheap drafted players for the future. We've got plenty of cap space moving forward.


Agreed.  Plus, I think it's understood that if we signed a guy like Franson long term, we'd probably be letting Quincey walk after next season.  Just a guess, but seems like a reasonable one. 

#2568491 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 05 February 2015 - 12:42 PM

He reminds me of a james wizniewski ... I recall a lot of people wanted him and he ended up going to Columbus for around 5 per for 5 years? He's not worth the contract and neither will franson , and he will end up on a team that will overpay and a team that has a hard time attracting free agents



James Wisniewski isn't worth his contract?  He's a top four offensive defenseman and powerplay quarterback.  Since he's been with Columbus he's scored 115 points in 199 games.  He also averages over 20 minutes a night.  He's been top ten in defense scoring twice in the four years he's been there, and has contributed 14 powerplay goals and 47 powerplay points since then. 


What would he need to do to be worth his contract if he's not doing it already?  Learn to fly?  Do the team's taxes as well?

#2568488 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 05 February 2015 - 12:31 PM

Your kidding right? It's all over the sports news all the time here how he loves toronto and how toronto isn't willing to budge from the 4 mill per ballpark , it has nothing to do with past 1 year offers ... if they realize how amazing he is they'd just give him the 5 per longterm and be done with it

And why even bring up kronwall? Kronwall is also what? 7 years older? And he's much better overall than franson is
If he's as good as you think he is they do anything to keep him and trade say a Phaneuf in the off season


Right, because trading Phaneuf and his massive (and undeserved) contract will be super duper easy to move. 


I'm not sure what's so hard to believe here.  Toronto mismanaged their team and now can't afford to keep a good player?  Good teams do it all the time, why is it so hard to believe a bad team (Toronto) couldn't do it too? 


I'll give you examples:


1. Boston couldn't afford to keep Iginla or Boychuk, but they aren't bad players. 

2.  Chicago couldn't afford to keep Campbell, Versteeg, Ladd, or Byfuglien, but they aren't bad players.  

3.  Detroit only offered Marian Hossa 4 million dollars to stay, but he's not a bad player. 


Sometimes, cap constraints mean you'll lose guys (or lowball guys) that you'd prefer to keep.  It happens...a lot.    


Get over it.  He's a good offensive defenseman.  You don't have to like him.  You don't have to want him on the team.  But your continued insistence that he must not be good because the Toronto Maple Leafs organization can't retain him (at market value), is absurd.  Completely and totally absurd. 


Is it really so hard to believe that that Maple Leafs are wrong?  Or stupid?  Or poorly run?  They've been wrong, stupid, and poorly run for the last 65 year!

#2568419 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 11:32 PM

If he is a really good 2/3 then why is toronto of all teams refusing to give him the contract you think we should give him?

As I said before I'm all for the rental ... I'm not willing to handcuff ourselves to that money and length of contract is all , on this team I don't think our coaching staff will see him ahead of kronwall Ericsson and dekeyser

Yes dekeyser doesn't have his offensive numbers but he's younger and I think his overall game is better and he will be ahead of franson when he's 27-28 ... Smith is starting to get things going and ouellet has a lot of upside (reminds me of vlasic from sj, won't out up big numbers but solid dependable d) and ouellet and smith doesn't cost us 5-6 per for 5-6 yrs


Toronto does everything absolutely backward.  If they aren't giving a guy a contract, that's almost a full fledged endorsement.  Seriously, if you use Toronto contract offers (and their worth) to form your impressions of players, then you'd have to conclude David Clarkson and Dion Phaneuf are REALLY good, and Cody Franson is garbage.  The actions of David Nonis should never...ever...be a guidepost for accurately formulating opinions.  Ever. 

#2568399 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 08:57 PM

Honestly if Franson did get traded here and then signed long term, I could pretend that it was the same Franson the entire time and pretend the horrible Choice never happened. He would for sure make me forget about the other guy...


Do you find it even remotely ironic that the guy who supposed wants to "pretend the horrible Choice never happened" is also the same guy who won't shut up about it?

#2568334 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 04:48 PM

Their offense may be down but Toronto is a free wheeling team.


Ok?  Why would their free wheelingness be used as an excuse for why Franson scores, but overlooked when it becomes clear that nobody else on their team scores much?  If their freewheeling offense inflates his numbers, why doesn't it inflate anybody else's?


I'm not sure why everybody is trying to hard to make the guy out to be worse than he is.  He was a good offensive player with Nashville (a non freewheeling team) and he's a good offensive player with Toronto.  AND, not surprisingly, he's getting better with age. 


There are probably some reasons not to like his game, but suggesting he's not good offensively isn't one of them.

#2568329 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 04:22 PM

Did you consider that maybe franson has more pts cause the leafs defense sucks so he gets a lot of playing time? Power play time? Who else are the leafs gonna put?reilly is just a kid , gardiner is over hyped ... Dion isn't good offensively .. I'm sure if we checked franson's pts came mostly on the ppl and with the kessel line when they were actually scoring

If he was so good why isn't the leafs willing to give him 5-5.5 a year for 5-6 years?

For a rental I'd take him but to have him at that price for that long I'll most definetly pass ... He's not a top pairing dman


He plays on their second pair and runs their second power play.  The EXACT same things he'd do here.  I'm not sure what you think he does for them/what you think he'd be doing for us?


If I'm following you correctly, you're suggesting that Cody Franson's points MAY be inflated because he gets powerplay time and plays with an offensively gifted player (Kessel).  That's reasonable.  But then it stands to reason that if powerplays and better offense inflate stats, his number would be better in Detroit...since we've got a better powerplay, better team offense, and a (currently) better individual goal scorer than Kessel. 

#2568325 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 04:16 PM


There is more to offence then points. 


Ill take Kronwall over Franson on the PP any day. Ill also take Kronwall in my own end to make the first pass 100 percent of the time. 


Of course, there is no argument that Kronwall is better than Franson defensively. 


Seriously though, when was the last time a player left the wings and didn't increase their point totals? (Brunner ) If Franson comes here you can expect him to lose 20-30% of that point total, just like any other FA in recent history who came here other than Hossa 


You're making a few pretty dubious statements here. 


Firstly, saying "there's more to offense than points", while true, immediately discounts the MOST IMPORTANT part of offense...points.  Sure there's more, but scoring points is the central part of offense. That's as silly as saying that there's more to defense than stopping points. 


Secondly, Filppula, J. Williams, Miller, Brunner, Snyder, Rafalski, and Hudler had their career high point totals in Detroit.  Likewise, neither Bertuzzi or Alfredsson saw their points fall after coming to Detroit from other teams.  Tomas Kopecky saw his production increase on a Stanley Cup team in Chicago (the same point I'm currently making about Franson coming to a better team), but it has since leveled off to the same production he had in Detroit.  Weiss has been hurt so you can't really tell.  The guys I can think of off the top of my head, whose production was worse in Detroit than elsewhere, were Kyle Quincey, Marian Hossa, Brad Stuart, Patrick Eaves, Ville Leino, and Robert Lang.  So I'd say it's a mixed bag...at best. 


Thirdly, don't be too excited to reject standard offensive measures (point totals) for "other offensive measures".  Cody Franson has better fancy stats than Kronwall too.  His Corsi and Fenwick are higher than Kronwall's, suggesting that he has a greater influence on his entire team's offense than does Kronwall. 


Finally, who cares about Kronwall's defense?  I didn't say Franson was a better player.  I said he's better offensively than all of our defensemen accept Kronwall (but maybe Kronwall too).  Between his points and fancy stats I'd say I"ve made the case that he's close to Kronwall (or slightly above) offensively.


Interesting point, look at Quincey's numbers outside of a Wings uniform and with a Wings uniform.  The difference is stark.


See above. 

#2568318 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 03:46 PM



Rest of the statement I agree





edit: My terrible spelling of the word absurd


It's not that absurd.  In their first 5 seasons, Kronwall score at .46 points per game, and Franson scored .41 points per game.  That's a difference of 4 points over an 82 game season.  My guess is, that this tiny difference in points can probably be attributed to the relative differences in the quality of the teams they've played for. 


Kronwall played on two Stanley Cup finalist teams and 2 other President's trophy winning teams in his first five years. 


And Cody Franson played for Nashville and Toronto. 

#2568316 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 03:09 PM

I don't want Franson for close to 7 mil per... I'd rather the better offensive defensemen for 5 with a guarantee that he'll have a few years here


Cody Franson isn't going to get 7 million per.  This is exactly the same crap that the media said about Matt Niskanen.  They literally said he'd get 7-7.5 million per.  He didn't.  He got 5.75 million.  If Cody Franson gets 7 million per, I'll donate 500 dollars to a charity of your choice.  If he gets 6 million, I'll donate 100 dollars to a charity of your choice.  If he gets 5.5 million or less, I'll be right. 

#2568313 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 02:53 PM

I want nothing to do with having franson here signed longterm(5-6 yrs) with all our defensive prospects coming ip and the fact that he's not a top pairing dman

If it's not too much I don't care if he's a rental ... Just sucks we already lost our 3rd round pick and mostly our 2nd now ... Too bad they wouldn't want a kindl with a middle of the pack prospect


What are the odds that all three of our righty defense prospects are going to be as good as Franson?  So why wouldn't you sign him and just get rid of the worst one of them?  I get that we all like our prospects and that we shouldn't just throw them away, but when we're hanging on to them just for the sake of hanging on to them, it's pretty silly.  Cody Franson is more offensively capable than any defenseman on our team other than Kronwall (though, maybe him too).  He's 27 years old, and still seems to be trending up.  You'd let him walk on the off chance that one of our defense prospects will one day be better than he is?  I'll throw Nick Jensen down a well right now for a righty defenseman who can score 50 pts. 

#2568304 TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 02:03 PM

Why go through all that to not be wrong? I just say "I'm right" even when I'm (never) wrong, and that's the end of that!


Why do people do the things they do?  I'd sooner try to reach out and touch the moon than understand Frankgrimes' thinking. 

#2568285 TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 12:47 PM

I like it because it's kind of a catch all for all the rampant stupidity that dorks like us can find to talk about.  It's like a catch-all for absurdity lest if spill into other areas.  You can't be off topic in a thread that had no meaningful topic to begin with. 

#2568278 TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

Posted by kipwinger on 04 February 2015 - 12:37 PM

I imagine Don Cherry's god in a three piece suit made of material with a stained glass church window pattern on it.


I imagine Don Cherry's god spitting on minorities and not winning the Stanley Cup.