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Dabura

Member Since 27 Feb 2004
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#2534371 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 16 August 2014 - 08:29 AM

frank, you were there this past season. The injuries were a nightmare. They won't be that bad this season. Don't say they will, because there's no way they can be. There's absolutely no way. I say that as a hockey fan, a sports fan, not just a Wings fan.

 

Do you know what a slightly healthier season and/or fewer boneheaded mistakes from Kyle Quincey and/or better luck in the shootout means? Well, for one thing, one more point in the standings gets us the Penguins in the first round. (We ended the regular season tied with the Jackets in terms of points.) I remember very cleary - we wanted the Pens, because we knew we stacked up well against them (even without Zetterberg and Ericsson), and the Pens fans didn't want the Wings, because they knew the Wings stacked up well against the Pens (even with Crosby and Malkin and Neal and Kunitz and The Mighty Matt Niskanen and Future Hall of Famer Brooks Orpik). The Pens were let off the hook and given the Jackets. Because of a tiebreaker rule. Because Johan Franzen and Joakim Andersson spent time as our top center and our heart-and-soul leader had surgery and...Jared Cowen*. (*Don't say we need an enforcer.)

 

Seven more points? We're even with ZOMG CUP CONTENDERS THE MONTREAL CANADIENS. Eight more points? We're even with ZOMG 2015 EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS THE TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING. The Flyers? They finished a whopping one point ahead of us. The Rangers, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals? They finished a whopping two points ahead of the Flyers, three points ahead of us.

 

Look, I get it. We're the Red Wings and the Red Wings are Cup-or-bust, no excuses. But this is our first real protracted dose of Adversity in two decades, and we're still right there, knocking on the door. It's really easy to say the glass is half-empty for the Wings, I know this better than most here. I registered here in 2004 and I've been complaining ever since. I could make - and have made, countless times - a really compelling case for why Ken Holland should be fired. But, at the end of the day? If I'm being honest and objective? If I'm looking at what I think is the bigger picture, the bigger plan? I give Ken Holland credit. I think he's doing the right thing, for the most part.

 

If any GM in this league has earned the benefit of the doubt, it's probably Holland. He knows success. Chicago and Los Angeles win two Cups and everyone's talking like they're the greatest teams imaginable. The Wings were contenders for longer than some of the people on these boards have been alive. We came soul-crushingly close to winning back-to-back Cups in '09. We probably should've won it all in '07. We beat the Ducks and had the aforementioned Blackhawks on the ropes in 2013.

 

We have three or four years to win one last Cup for Datsyuk. With Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Sproul, et al. in the system, I'm liking our chances. I'm not just saying that. I think about this stuff every day. I obsess over this stuff. I definitely have my problems with Ken Holland's decision-making. I definitely have my concerns. I definitely don't like seeing the Wings as anything short of serious contenders. But in due time we're going to be looking back on all this and laughing. I believe that.




#2534367 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 16 August 2014 - 02:10 AM

Honestly a lot of people thought Kopitar would be leading the way. He was drafted #11 overall and was ranked the #1 European player.

 

That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick.  They were a talented, but crazy young team.  Brown was the oldest of that group at 23.  Doughty was 18.  Johnson was 21. Quick was 22.  I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group. 

 

Add to that a handful of solid vets on the team.  O'Donnell, Stoll, Greene, Williams. They added Scuderi the next season. I don't know that anyone would've guessed the two Cups, but they had all the makings of becoming a great team very soon.

 

Sorry. You should pick a team that isn't my second favorite and I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. :P

 

Ha! I knew you'd respond!

 

I've been low on sleep the past couple days and as result I haven't been communicating my ideas very well.

 

The Kings had a very strong foundation set in 2009; most of the key players on the Cup team were already there on the night of that Lidstrom game. About Kopitar specifically - I remember thinking at some point in late 2009 (around the time of this game, actually) that he looked a lot like a younger, bigger Zetterberg. Everyone knew he was special. And, hell, I'm actually one of those people who hates when people say the Kings won the Cup as an 8th seed and so all you have to do is get into the dance and anything can happen.

 

But - and maybe this doesn't apply to Kings fans - I don't remember many people saying, "The Kings willl be dynasty-good in a few years," back in 2009. That's all I was really saying.

 

As for our prospects - I'm no professional scout or expert judge of talent or Hockey Insider, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night like to think I know my Wings prospects. Not puffing my chest, just saying I don't get all my learnin' from Hockey's Future. I really, truly believe we can be a contender in two or three years, if we play our cards the right way.


I don't care if we have the best or worst prospect pool or not. I like most people care about winning now and in the future.

 

*sigh*




#2534353 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 15 August 2014 - 08:43 PM

Can't believe that farm thing everyone knows not every prospect will turn out in a great way.

 

Straw man argument. I'm not saying every prospect will turn out in a great way. I'm saying I believe we have what we need to complement the existing core and win one more Cup with Datsyuk. Beyond that, it's truly anyone's guess.




#2534328 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 15 August 2014 - 05:21 PM

My big problem is that even if the Wings are a couple key pieces away from a serious Cup run, Holland isn't landing them and is content to sign some aging vet (and likely former Wing) to fill that hole.  The Nyquist situation was absolutely ridiculously and hurt the team.

 

I'm with you on this, 100%. I'm just saying: if we're talking about Lidstrom being a guy you can't replace and that fact meaning the entire team had to be re-evaluated and whatnot...I think Holland's done what he should've done, which is focus on the farm instead of becoming Paul Holmgren. Not that it's "draft and develop or become Paul Holmgren." But you know what I'm saying. I think Holland's walked a pretty fine line between trying to make immediate improvements and trying to re-stock mostly empty cupboards.

 

I normally don't put much stock in futures, but I'm very, very high on what we have in the pipeline, largely because I think our player development is second-to-none.




#2534254 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 14 August 2014 - 01:16 PM

And Holland should have been working on a transition plan for Lidstrom's retirement for years.  Him participating in the ridiculous Suter sweepstakes was a pretty good indication that he didn't have one.  The reality is you don't replace Nick Lidstrom.  You have to reevaluate and restructure the entire team.  Holland keeps making moves like it's 2008.

 

I dunno, harold. I think over the course of this five year drought we've always been a couple key pieces away from seriously competing for the Cup. At the same time, our prospect cupboards were empty, and the brain trust has done a really good job of re-stocking. Right now we have one of the better prospect pools in the league, and I think we're still just a couple key pieces away from being a serious contender, because we still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen. I think that's rebuilding on the fly. Over the course of a few years you remain competitive, maybe trying for a UFA home run here and there - but the focus is on keeping the competitive core while building up a solid stable of very promising young players that will hopefully complement that core and one day take over. Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco have broken through, Smith and DeKeyser should take big steps forward this season, and we're also looking at four or five very good D prospects waiting in the wings, Anthony Mantha being no more than a year away, and our goalie of the future spending his final season as a Griffin.

 

I (want to) believe Ken Holland has been doing what he's been doing for good reason and that the past few years of "futility" are going to pay off in a big way.




#2534250 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 14 August 2014 - 12:42 PM

I'm ok with this.




#2534175 Confused on the direction of this team going forward

Posted by Dabura on 13 August 2014 - 03:50 PM

This is a good piece:

 

Core Values: Henrik Zetterberg at center of transitioning Red Wings [Chris Peters, CBSSports.com]




#2533967 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 10 August 2014 - 10:41 AM

Given that this is going to be the exact same roster I see no reason on why they should be doing better.

 

Seriously, frank?




#2533857 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 07 August 2014 - 03:57 PM

I guess where we respectfully agree to disagree, is that I believe to build a winner in the NHL nowadays takes much more time than it used to, and I believe because back in the early 2000's all the Wings had to do after a rough patch was make a few signings (ie. Hull, Robitaille etc.), or make a big trade (ie. Hasek, Lang etc.).....that people believe management should be able to do that now. It's simply a different world, and to have those same expectation are unrealistic.

 

Agreed.

 

I sort of think of it in terms of marriage and parenthood. The Wings of the 90s and early 2000s were a bachelor who was basically beholden to no one. Then that bachelor got married and became a father. Now he has certain responsibilities. Now every move he makes has to be born of a series of careful considerations. Would he like to spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. Could he spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. But, really, he can't. He shouldn't. Because he'd be a bad husband and father. Everything would fall apart.

 

If it were up to Ken Holland, he'd spend as much of Mike Ilitch's money as he could. Were it up to Ken Holland, he'd trade all his draft picks for all-star acquisitions. Were it up to Ken Holland, there'd be no cap, and we'd have a dynamite team every single season, like back in the 90s and early 2000s. But none of that's doable in the cap era. Every consideration is complex. Every draft pick matters. Realistically, every penny that can be pinched, is pinched. One wrong move can wreck your team - and organization (The All-Important Bottom Line) - for years.

 

At the end of the day, the Wings were a juggernaut for two straight decades. The cap and our empty prospect cupboards started to catch up with us, and Kenny decided to switch to a retooling plan, the idea being that we tread water for a few years in exchange for another ten years or more of contention. And even then, he's never been fully resigned to simply treading water, because he's gone for Suter, Parise, Edler, Niskanen, et al. I've given him s*** for that for the past couple of years, saying he's a hypocrite and whatnot. But I think all he really wants is to see the Wings win the Cup as soon as possible, same as us. Key thing is, though, he has to be responsible. He has to take a long view of things, has to know when to exercise restraint. He has to do what's best for the club in the long run and in the big picture. I have to give him a lot of credit. Were it me, I'd probably be more like Paul Holmgren, wheeling and dealing but never really getting his team anywhere, and, actually, probably hurting them more than he's helping them.




#2533797 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 06 August 2014 - 08:09 AM

Until we win a cup again the rebuild hasn't been complete. So people should stop saying it worked cause fact is no one knows if it has or not yet.

Frankly for me its whatever comes first shows if it worked or not. Do we win a cup first or get a top 5 draft pick.

They wings have continued to make the playoffs but haven't been in contention for a cup in awhile. They still have many major holes and lots of kids who need to grow so it'll be a bit yet before we see the direction they're heading lately it's been downward.

 

I'm not saying, "The rebuild was a success! Hallelujah!" I'm just saying it's a thing, and it's been going on for probably at least the past three years, and it's still going on, and we should start reaping some benefits this season. And if we don't reap any benefits, and if nothing comes of all this but failure, then we have a serious problem and I'm going to revert to what I normally do, which is piss and moan. Then I'll be right there with you, DeGraa. ;)

 

I think with the Wings winning 4 cups between ’97-’08, some fans have unrealistic expectations. In the post salary cap world, things simply are not going to be the same. Its not the payers faults, managements fault, or ownerships fault, just simply a result of the system in place.

 

Right. These past several years have been the first real hiccup in about 20 years. It's the cap and parity catching up to us. The last time we rebuilt, we had carry-over players like Lidstrom and Draper, and we'd managed to find two franchise players in Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and we weren't deep into the cap era. That it'd be harder this time was an inevitability. But I think the worst is actually over, which, if true, means our lowest point in about 15-20 years still saw us making the playoffs. And, like I've noted before, we've had some pretty s*** luck with postseason matchups, drawing two really good Sharks teams that had our number, a Predators team that had our number, a really good Ducks team (which we defeated), an elite Blackhawks team (which we nearly defeated), and an elite Bruins team. Granted, if you finish in seventh or eighth, you're getting what you deserve, which is a team that's superior to yours. But, still, I feel like we've been better than our recent results (mostly the past two seasons) would suggest. That, to me, is encouraging and gives me reason to be at least cautiously optimistic that we're going to see the start of something great in the next couple of seasons and that we could be back to seriously contending as early as 2016-17. Which would be pretty incredible, all things considered.

 

I really like our prospect pool and the young roster talent. I don't feel we have a Datsyuk or a Lidstrom, but we do have an overall stronger collection of young players than we're used to. Smith, DeKeyser. Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan. Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Athanasiou. Marchenko, Ouellet, Sproul, Backman, Jensen. Mrazek. Good things are coming our way, IMHO.




#2533793 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 06 August 2014 - 01:17 AM

A minor thing I just wanted to clear up: when I say "basement" I mean bottom of the conference. That we could slide that far down is pretty much a non-possibility, IMO.

 

Here's a decent piece which, I think, sort of echoes the point I and others are making about the Wings' "five year drought":
 

Road to Recovery: How the Sharks are Rebuilding [The Hockey Writers]

 

To be honest everyone has their own idea of what a rebuild should involve. It could be trading away core players, acquiring draft picks, making the team younger, or hiring new staff which gives the team a newer look or in a sense “rebuilding” it. Essentially a team does a combination of all of these things but one thing that is absolutely not required in a rebuild is losing. A team does not have to lose in order to rebuild. The Detroit Red Wings are a prime example of this. They built a team that was meant to succeed in the playoffs off of a number of players such as Steve Yzerman, Brenden Shanahan and Sergei Fedorov. When it came time to rebuild the Red Wings did not have to begin losing due to players such as Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg and Johan Franzen. Now these players are starting to age but it looks as if the Red Wings are ready to rebuild on the fly again with players such as Tomas Tatar and Gustav Nyquist.

 

[ . . . . ]

 

There is a difference between what someone says and what someone does. What Doug Wilson has done in two years is get rid of eight players over the age of 30 while only signing three new players over the age of 30 in Hannan, Torres and Scott. At the same time the San Jose Sharks have managed to replace core positions within the lineup. Just like the Detroit Red Wings the San Jose Sharks are rebuilding but losing is not part of the formula. Good drafting and development coaching has kept the team competitive on the ice, which has deceived us into thinking there is no rebuild taking place in San Jose. Doug Wilson may receive criticism for not signing veteran players and making a few poor signings but he doesn’t receive any praise for helping the Sharks make the playoffs while they are rebuilding.

 

All teams rebuild but some teams do not lose when they do.  The “winning rebuild” is nothing new as it worked for the Red Wings and Devils after the late 90′s. It also worked for the Montreal Canadiens who managed to win five or more Stanley Cups in three consecutive decades. Because of this “winning rebuild” it is tough to clarify what type of team the Sharks truly are.




#2533604 Candiens, P.K. Subban agree to 8 year contract

Posted by Dabura on 03 August 2014 - 10:17 AM

Subban shoulda gotten 8, he's not better than Doughty/Weber although he benefits from having a Norris to his name

 

The comparisons to the Kane/Toews deal are sort of valid, but at the same time, let's keep in mind that Kane and Toews are two of the most popular, recognizable players in the NHL.Chicago has the biggest bandwagon fanbase in the NHL and if you lose Captain Serious and Kaner, you lose a whole bunch of revenue. 

 

Montreal likes Subban but they'll always have a fan base and it wouldn't be the end of the world if they lost him.

 

It'd absolutely be the end of the world for the Canadiens if they were to lose Subban. I mean, I get what you're saying about Chicago, and you have a point, but the Habs' fanbase was having a nuclear meltdown during arbitration because they thought they might be losing Subban. All their hopes and dreams rest on him and Price, really. (Even Bob McKenzie and Elliotte Friedman were fanning the flames of fear.) And, again, he's just a very likable person, a great ambassador for the team and for the NHL and hockey in general and even Canada, and one of the best hockey players in the world. He's certainly right up there with Toews and Kane in terms of his importance to his team (and to the NHL in terms of marketing). Chicago doesn't have the crazy hockey culture the Habs have, true, but a generational franchise player is a generational franchise player. The Habs lost one of those in Roy. For that to happen all over again with Subban? Riots in the streets of Montreal.

 

As for the contract itself and the comparisons to Doughty and Weber, each of those deals was reached a few years ago, so you can't really compare them. This deal may be a wee bit high right now, but it's an eight year deal. The cap will be rising, which means inflation, which means the deeper we get into the contract, the better the value. And, of course, the only reason the term is eight years is the new CBA. Were this pre-new CBA, the term would be longer and the yearly hit would be spread out more, so it wouldn't be $9M every year.




#2533595 Candiens, P.K. Subban agree to 8 year contract

Posted by Dabura on 03 August 2014 - 03:07 AM

P.K. Subban's one of the very best best defensemen - if not hockey players, period - in the world, not to mention a quality guy. I'd say 9 X 8 is about right.




#2533510 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 02 August 2014 - 01:21 AM

To be clear...

 

I don't necessarily believe things are going to go especially well for the Wings this season. The point I'm trying to make is this: for all the issues the Wings have, the teams that are, generally, considered tops in the East really aren't much better than the Wings, maybe not even better at all when you really get down to it (unless we're talking about the Bruins, who are among the best in the league because they have Chara, Bergeron, Rask, Lucic, Krejci, et al.)

 

I'm not justifying Ken Holland's inaction. If anything, I feel the conference being wide open almost makes him beholden to bring in a quality player or two that could give us a shot in the arm and maybe help us gain an edge over the other playoff-worthy teams.

 

Nor am I saying there aren't some very good teams in the East. I do think the Habs are slightly better than the Wings, but the key word is "slightly." It wasn't so long ago that we were all jacked up about a possible first-round date with the Penguins. We truly felt the Wings could take the Penguins out, and Penguins fans were praying for Columbus, and then the Hurricanes happened. Hell, like I said before, it wasn't so long ago that we took out an excellent Ducks team and almost did the same to an even better Blackhawks team, all with a roster that I feel was inferior to what we have now.

 

And y'know what else? A part of me wants us to finish in the basement so we can, hopefully, snag a genuinely elite prospect, maybe even one who could make an immediate impact. Hell, I probably wouldn't be totally opposed to tanking for a shot at a generational talent. So it's not like I'm in denial about where we stand. I just think this Wings team is better than this past season says we are. So much went wrong for us, but we squeaked into the playoffs. What if so much were to go right for us this season? Answer: we wouldn't be squeaking into the playoffs. What if even just a couple of the things that went wrong for us in 2013-14 were to go right for us in 2014-15? Answer: we wouldn't be squeaking into the playoffs.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic. I think that's the way to go.




#2533498 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 01 August 2014 - 11:47 PM

Looking at the playoff teams WE ARE IN THE BASEMENT. Stop ignoring it. We were 8th. So many people here think were a top 4 team in either conference when was the last time that happened? Stop drinking the damn kool aid and face facts. Until we do better were a fringe playoff team. That's what's been proven these last several seasons.

 

Troll harder.