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Of course people mention this frequently, its fact. If a person is going to make a rational and logical arguement, I would expect they use facts in their arguments opposed to emotion. You constantly refer to the Wings as an old team, yet if you look at their lineup its filled with young players. Do you really think there is a better change of Z, D, Kronwall, regressing, then Gus, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Smith, DD getting better? Young players improve, the Smith of 2014 is not necessarily the Smith of 2015, I would hope with 1 more year of experience, and with Babcock leading the way, all these players will get better. Then throw in less injuries, I dont see how you can be so overly pessimistic regarding this team. Yes we probably know what we are going to get with Franzen, Cleary & Quincey, but that's 3 players.

It's a big year for Smith - it being a contract year is obvious, but moving forward it's huge for him. I think part of Babs' comments about finding a top 4 guy when discussing the defensive prospects was definitely directed at Smith. Thing is, I hope he's given a fair shake this year. Give the guy special teams minutes and let him play. You're not going to find a future top 4 in Kindl or Quincey - those two are fringe #4-5 defenders at this point, IMO. I don't care about last year or the year before, Smith can prove what he's going to be this season. Pairing wise, I wish they'd slot him with DD and let Kindl-Quincey run around together. Much better indicator of what Smith is going to mean to the team going forward.

Other teams do deal with injuries, but what we dealt with was just unreal. We didnt just lose 2 or 3 guys, we lost our very best players, and a ton of them with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Franzen, Erickson, Cleary, Helm, Howard, and the monster. (I may be forgetting some) all hitting the injury list. I think any team with our bad luck would have struggled. I don't think Boston would have been too good if they had lost Rask, Lucic, Krejci, Krug, Marchant, Iginla, etc. I will agree with you on taking a wait and see approach with guys who really haven't played in the NHL (Mantha, Sproul etc.). I do think some will break out and hit their potential, but i'm sure a few will fade away and not reach their potential. As far guys like Nyquist and Tatar however, I think they have proven enough to earn our respect as future stars. I remember in the Anaheim/Wings series a few years ago telling my cousin that Nyquist was a star in the making, he just stuck out as being something special. For some reason he just couldn't beat the goalie, I cant remember how many times after making some amazing move his shot would either go wide, hit the post, or be stopped by some ridiculous save. He was no fluke last year (not saying you said he is), I think he is the future of this team.

Babs is the best coach in the sport of hockey. He can name is price and term as far as I'm concerned.

Attempting standard practice (or any practice) and successfully executing it has just as much to do with the coach and his motivational skills, practice regimes, interpersonal relationships, ability to teach, develop, etc etc as it does the players successfully carrying out their responsibilities, so I will fundamentally disagree with you there.

Adopting standard practice is heroic when everyone has written off your roster as a bunch of patches and bandaids that have no business making the playoffs, and you still find a way in. As I mentioned above, Trotz failed to successfully adopt standard practice last year and his roster was more competent. Same thing with Tippett and just about every coach in the NHL who didn't make the playoffs. Babs got further than every team below the Wings despite having less proven talent than each of those teams. And as I already alluded to, there's more to it that just telling your roster to play within a certain system. A large chunk of our roster had little to no NHL experience. They hadn't played the roles that Babcock expected them to play in the past. He had to have everyone on the same page, and buying into the system, and help a lot of these kids grow into competent NHL players. He also had to do with without many of our on-ice leaders present to help ease the transition. The rest of your post seems like you're implying that I don't think the kids deserve much credit in getting us to the playoffs, which is incorrect. I mentioned a few posts above that Nyqvist's streak was an anomaly, and without that anomaly the Wings don't make the playoffs. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Tatar leading by example and showing the amount of heart that he did. I don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Sheahan and Jurco stepping up, or Gus when Jimmy was faltering. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs with anyone else behind the bench. And I think were at the point in the debate where both sides have said their thoughts, and we're both content not budging.

I don't get what some people expect from Smith but he's progressing quite well in my opinion. You have to understand that he is still very young for a defenseman in the NHL especially on the Red Wings. Most defensemen don't hit their prime until the age of 27-28 in this league, Smith is just 25 years old. It is a very difficult position to adapt to at the highest level. Let's just compare him to a somewhat similar type player that is currently in the Red Wings organization. although Niklas Kronwall is more of a two-way defenseman he was always known to be a power-play quarterback that can put up points. He was also a late first round draft pick. Both players were 22 years old when they got their first taste with the Red Wings. Kronwall played 20 games and put up 5 (1-4) points, Smith played 14 games and put up 7 (1-6) points. The following year was a lockout year for Kronwall, Smith regressed a little that year, playing 34 games and putting up just 8 (0-8) points. The following year at the age of 24 Kronwall played in 27 games, putting up 9 (1-8) points, while at the same age (last season) Smith played in 71 games and put up 19 (5-14) points. At the age of 25 Kronwall played 68 games and put up 22 (1-21) points, and I expect Smith to put up better numbers than that this season. I don't think 30 points is at all out of reach for him this season, while also playing much better defense, as long as himself along with the rest of the team stay relatively healthy. Also, speaking of Smith's defensive game, I think it has grown a ton in the past 6-8 months. I'll also compare him to another fellow Red Wing that everyone loved to hate just a few short seasons ago. Jonathan Ericsson was a turnover machine and was a disaster in his own end. Now look at him, he is probably our best shutdown defenseman. Why is so hard to believe that Smith will shore up his defensive game, even more than he already has over the past year? I think he will. I doubt anyone ever would have thought Kronwall would have been our number one defenseman and that he would have been as solid at both ends of the ice as he is. Or even that Ericsson would be a capable number 2-3 shutdown defenseman. If you don't think the same thing can happen with Smith in his development, that happened to our current number one and number two, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the growth and potential in Smith I don't know what else to say, but it is definitely there and only time will tell. I would be surprised if he doesn't grow into a number 2-3 two-way defenseman in the next couple seasons. Like I said, only time will tell...

We get it Kip, you don't like Babcock, he's not a great coach, totally overrated. You're right, the rest of the hockey world is wrong. Also, Smith sucks and will never be worth a damn...

Bab's apparently thought Smith was the best defenseman last night. http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/30/babcock-was-raving-about-smiths-performance-versus-leafs/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

I don't care. I am bereft. I hope Sportsnet goes belly up. I'm still in the anger phase of grief over losing the CBC hockey broadcast.

I suppose we just have a different perspective. I don't expect the Wings to be wholly successful - I expect them to land somewhere from #4-8 in the East, and I feel like that's realistic. The difference between last year and this year (in theory) is the number of games Red Wings are playing at their highest level. You have your best players playing their best hockey, and it's bound to be a better year. I actually feel like last season was so rough in terms of man games lost that there's nowhere to go but up. I get the idea of reeling in expectations when it comes to players returning from injury, but Weiss has looked heads and shoulders better, IMO. He had a ton of skating issues last season and looked terribly slow. Even if it's been a couple games, his skating is much more fluid. Not saying he's going to be a 60 point guy, but I think he's going to show some serious improvement. I agree about him being a passive guy, but that's always been the case. I think the best way Weiss is going to be used is between guys like Mule, Tatar, Nyquist, etc. Give him those trigger men and he'll be given an opportunity to set them up. The thing about other teams catching on to Goose, Tatar, Danny, etc. is that the team has some depth at forward. If this team can run three scoring lines, it gives them that much more offensive punch. If you're taking away space from Goose, you're leaving Mule open. Taking it away from Tatar, and perhaps Jurco gets some room. The depth at forward is something I'm optimistic about on this team. The Bruins are a good team - I don't think there's any denying that. For as much as you believe they played poorly against the Habs, I also think the Wings played poorly against them. While I think the right team won the series, I really think Detroit could have pushed them a lot more. It was just a flat effort from the team.

He had them playing a style of game that leads many less-skilled teams to limited success. I agree. That doesn't make him "heroic", or a "genius". Many other coaches have used a similar strategy to have limited success in the past. Since when does adopting standard practice make someone heroic? The true "heroes" last season were a bunch of kids taking a team on their backs and outperforming expectations night in and night out. NOBODY, including our coach and GM, thought that Nyquist or Tatar were capable of what they did. Let alone Sheahan, Jurco, Glendening. But all hail Mike Babcock because he was forced to focus more heavily on defense given that his offensive stars were hurt. Nobody else would have ever thought of that. Mike Babcock is a good coach. Evidence of that is 2003, 2008, and 2009. Not 2014.

So what if they lost more close games than not? That doesn't discredit the fact Babcock had the team playing a style of hockey that gave them a chance to win on most nights. Sometimes you get the bounces, or a kid gets a hot streak, sometimes you regress to the the mean and the team with more skill actually wins. I hope you can identify more strategy than just trapping, kip. You're better than that. Babs had everyone back checking hard, supporting the puck tightly, playing on the right side of the puck at all times, even if it meant less chances for an odd-man rush in our favor. The team was playing a soft swarm in the defensive zone pretty effectively, and doing a good job keeping the puck along the perimeter most nights. They've been relieving deep zone pressure by going up the middle for years and other teams are just now starting to adapt that strategy as well. In the offensive zone players are rarely caught deep on a turnover. And again, many of the guys playing last year started in the AHL and thus didn't have any experience playing under Babcock, so I imagine there was an added variable for adjusting to playing under a new coach and a new system, with a new role.And just for the record, the three teams you mentioned who also play the trap effectively failed to make the playoffs last year, despite a healthier roster than the Wings.

The FCC ruling will have no effect on blackouts at all. All the ruling means is that sports leagues no longer have government backing to support blacking out games if they aren't sell outs. The leagues still have private blackout rules baked into their contracts with broadcasters that extend beyond simple rules for non-sellout games, like only getting access to out of market games by paying for Sunday Ticket, Extra Innings, or Center Ice. Basically if you're not in Michigan where FSD is considered your local market, you will not be able to see non-nationally televised Wings' games without Center Ice or Gamecenter Live. (Legally that is, not that I condone illegal means) Simply buying a sports pack that gives you access to all of the local Fox Sports channels will mean you can watch everything else they broadcast but you'll still be blacked out from the actual games.

You're interpreting my post incorrectly.Babcock's system allowed a bunch of AHL players, bottom six forwards, bottom three defensmen, and Kronwall to keep games close and competitive against NHL talent on a nightly basis. If it's only a one goal game, Nyquist, or Tatar, or whomever has a chance to play hero. If it's a two or three goal game, it doesn't matter if Nyqvist has the hot streak, because the Wings are still losing more games than not. Nyqvist's run was an anomaly that any coach would take advantage of, but most coaches wouldn't be in a position to get a win out of that anomaly with the roster Babcock was given on most nights.

Prob dillusional cause I'm a die hard wings fan but I'm gonna choose to be optimistic and say we will surprise the hockey world (minus most wings fans) and get some luck with the injuries for once and have our kids step it up big time and finish 1st in our division Zetterberg datsyuk weiss Franzen Tatar nyquist will all get 20+ Goals (2 of those 30+) Sheahan jurco helm will get 15-20+ One or 2 of ouellet sproul backman marchenko will be a regular by seasons end and solidify our defense

Nyqvist played excellently and definitely beyond what anyone was expecting him to do, but he was also playing in a system that Babcock ser up for the Wings to maximize their chances in. Nyqvist was able to win games because the system he was a part of kept the games close despite the Wings' obvious defensive weaknesses personelle-wise. Theres a lot more to the process than putting the obvious player on the obvious line. Nyqvist was a big part of the Wings getting into the playoffs, but let's not pretend that was all in spite of Babcock's work behind the bench.

Like I said, Babcock isn't perfect. He does misuse some of his players but for the most part I do think he does get the most out of most of his players. I do think Smith has been misused, I do think Tatar has been misused, I do think Weiss has been and may continue to be misused and I do think Legwand was misused in the playoff last year. But he does squeeze every ounce of talent out of guys like Glendening, Abdelkader, Miller, etc... Anyway, you're turning this into something it wasn't. Babcock is a great coach, there is no denying that but he has his faults. Smith is a great player in the making and he will get better. Keep dreaming themcityblues...

How can anyone say the wings are underrated? Lol They have lots of UNPROVEN talent. They had lots of injury prone talent. They have several over the hill guys. In fact I think it's pretty clear what the wings are. And if by some miracle they stay healthy and all live up to their hype this team would be a pleasant surprise. But after these last few seasons it's extremely foolish to think that'll happen.

If they played naked... They would all be aiming for the five hole.

I don't know, I don't think we are under-rated. I think this team has a lot of unrecognized potential, but it's just potential at this point and it's up to the Wings to prove to everybody they aren't a playoff bubble team.

Both at the same time? Seriously, were they scissoring or something?

TIS I, THE GROIN ENFORCER I AM HERE TO ENFORCE GROINS AS MY NAME SUGGESTS