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LeftWinger

Goodbye Ken Holland?

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Holland going to Toronto would just piss me off, losing to Babs to them was bad enough. In a perfect world, Holland steps down after his contract expires and Yzerman comes to town, but I dont see that happening.

 

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Holland is garbage.  Anywhere but Detroit, please.

Out of curiosity, what would Holland have to do to gain your respect asides from quitting, I mean on the job?

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33 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I like how people react when it doesn't fit in to their agenda. It'd be different if someone said, my neighbor's daughter's boyfriends mailman said Holland to Toronto.

SheeSus! 

I asked some leafs fans and they said McGran and the sun are terrible even by toronto standards.

Dem clicks doh

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2 hours ago, kliq said:

Holland going to Toronto would just piss me off, losing to Babs to them was bad enough. In a perfect world, Holland steps down after his contract expires and Yzerman comes to town, but I dont see that happening.

 

Out of curiosity, what would Holland have to do to gain your respect asides from quitting, I mean on the job?

If Holland stays, flips this roster, makes 7 good trades, drafts brilliantly and we win the cup in 2019 somehow it would be all because of Scotty Bowman. 

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2 hours ago, kliq said:

Holland going to Toronto would just piss me off, losing to Babs to them was bad enough. In a perfect world, Holland steps down after his contract expires and Yzerman comes to town, but I dont see that happening.

 

Out of curiosity, what would Holland have to do to gain your respect asides from quitting, I mean on the job?

 

What has yzerman done in Tampa to be considered great? They are in the basement with us, even though they have stamkos and hedman they've never had a good enough team to go all the way, even with 2 centerpiece players, and stammers discount contract. 

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1 hour ago, Euro_Twins said:

 

What has yzerman done in Tampa to be considered great? They are in the basement with us, even though they have stamkos and hedman they've never had a good enough team to go all the way, even with 2 centerpiece players, and stammers discount contract. 

Seriously?  Look at some of the trades and acquisitions he's made.  

 

Signing Tyler Johnson to an entry level contract in 2011.

Drafting Kucherov in the 2nd round in 2011.  

Drafting Palat in the 7th round in 2011.  

Drafting Killorn in the 3rd round in 2012.  

Trading a 4th round pick and Cory Conacher for Ben Bishop.

Trading Kyle Quincey and Sebastien Piche for a 1st round pick.  

Signing Stralman in 2014 to a 5 year $22 million contract.  (about the same contract as Ericsson)

Signing Brian Boyle for cheap in 2014.

Getting rid of a malcontent in St. Louis in 2014 and getting two high draft picks and Ryan Callahan in return.

Keeping both Stamkos and Drouin, despite talks they wanted to go elsewhere.  

 

How can you ask such a silly question?  What's Holland done during this time period to grow the team?    

Edited by GMRwings1983

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22 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Seriously?  Look at some of the trades and acquisitions he's made.  

 

Signing Tyler Johnson to an entry level contract in 2011.

Drafting Kucherov in the 2nd round in 2011.  

Drafting Palat in the 7th round in 2011.  

Drafting Killorn in the 3rd round in 2012.  

Trading a 4th round pick and Cory Conacher for Ben Bishop.

Trading Kyle Quincey and Sebastien Piche for a 1st round pick.  

Signing Stralman in 2014 to a 5 year $22 million contract.  (about the same contract as Ericsson)

Signing Brian Boyle for cheap in 2014.

Getting rid of a malcontent in St. Louis in 2014 and getting two high draft picks and Ryan Callahan in return.

Keeping both Stamkos and Drouin, despite talks they wanted to go elsewhere.  

 

How can you ask such a silly question?  What's Holland done during this time period to grow the team?    

A lot of fancy stuff there for a team that is 1 point out of last in the east, hasn't won a Cup since Yzerman joined the team and has the 6th highest payroll in the league with a star player who can't stay healthy.  Oh and just to note. After Stamkos resigned with the Lightning in the summer it was quite clear that he had no intentions but to stay in TB. All the hype of him leaving was fueled by hockey media.  I measure success in Stanley Cups and they have just as many as we do since Yzerman joined the Lightning. We can argue all day what team has the brighter future but as it sits right now it doesn't look good for either. 

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1 hour ago, Euro_Twins said:

What has yzerman done in Tampa to be considered great? They are in the basement with us, even though they have stamkos and hedman they've never had a good enough team to go all the way, even with 2 centerpiece players, and stammers discount contract. 

Nothing. He has made "good moves" just as GMRwings said above, but I would agree that he has not done anything great. He walked into a situation where he had two corner stone pieces in Stamkos & Hedman, made some good moves, had some good drafts, but because he's Steve Yzerman people glorify him and make it sound like he reinvented the wheel. Take his exact team, and take away Stamkos and Hedman, and people could say the same thing about them that they do about us, a lot of middle of the road talent. Just like if you took our team and added Stamkos and Hedman, we look great. Its a league of parity and people dont get that. With that being said, he still did make those moves, and I am not going to take any accomplishments away from him, I just am not going to put him on a pedestal. 

The reason why I would like Yzerman here is because he appears to be a GM who keeps getting better, and I would selfishly like to see him back in the organization as he was my favourite player growing up (bias admitted). This year is not a good year for TB, but to be fair he has had a lot of injuries, and like I said above, this is a league of parity where a couple of hurt players can be the difference between getting to the finals and not making the playoffs.

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2 hours ago, kliq said:

Nothing. He has made "good moves" just as GMRwings said above, but I would agree that he has not done anything great. He walked into a situation where he had two corner stone pieces in Stamkos & Hedman, made some good moves, had some good drafts, but because he's Steve Yzerman people glorify him and make it sound like he reinvented the wheel. Take his exact team, and take away Stamkos and Hedman, and people could say the same thing about them that they do about us, a lot of middle of the road talent. Just like if you took our team and added Stamkos and Hedman, we look great. Its a league of parity and people dont get that. With that being said, he still did make those moves, and I am not going to take any accomplishments away from him, I just am not going to put him on a pedestal. 

The reason why I would like Yzerman here is because he appears to be a GM who keeps getting better, and I would selfishly like to see him back in the organization as he was my favourite player growing up (bias admitted). This year is not a good year for TB, but to be fair he has had a lot of injuries, and like I said above, this is a league of parity where a couple of hurt players can be the difference between getting to the finals and not making the playoffs.

I think most realize Yzerman is the superior GM at this point. Holland isn't the utter moron people make him out to be, but Yzerman is better. Granted, Yzerman took a fair amount of our scout staff with him to Tampa. Our franchise has been picked clean by vultures at this point. Babs, Stevie, and Nill all took their staff with them. I hate it.

Only poor deal i can think of by Yzerman is the Lindback trade.

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8 hours ago, puckbags said:

If Holland stays, flips this roster, makes 7 good trades, drafts brilliantly and we win the cup in 2019 somehow it would be all because of Scotty Bowman. 

Holland hasn't made 7 good trades in a decade, or even sign 7 good contracts. He can't flip this roster because of cap issues with regards to the terrible contracts he has signed that we are still paying for (Weiss, Ericsson, Howard etc). The problem with him isn't that he made a few bad signings in the past he continues to do so i.e Nielsens term. I probably am just wasting my time, since the Holland faithful think he does no wrong and would be willing cuckhold participants.

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3 hours ago, BringBack19 said:

Holland hasn't made 7 good trades in a decade, or even sign 7 good contracts. He can't flip this roster because of cap issues with regards to the terrible contracts he has signed that we are still paying for (Weiss, Ericsson, Howard etc). The problem with him isn't that he made a few bad signings in the past he continues to do so i.e Nielsens term. I probably am just wasting my time, since the Holland faithful think he does no wrong and would be willing cuckhold participants.

Who thinks this? A false perception has been created that if you dont turn on Holland and think everything he does is garbage that you are a "Holland apologist" or "a Holland faithful". The funny thing about of the situation, is that majority that are not anti Holland are open to looking at the good and bad that he has done, it's the anti Holland crowd that have their judgement clouded and look at this with a perspective that is very one dimensional. Hyperbole or bust!   

Edited by kliq

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I guess I am a Holland apologist and hater at once.... I give him credit for trying to get quality UFA's to come here, he tries for the biggest UFA's every year, he just cannot force them to come here. He dug his own grave though with the whole "We're Detroit, take a discount to come here" attitude he had there for a long time. That worked when we were winning, but after a while, players weren't having it. BUT, I do give him credit, he seems to have changed that attitude, he offered a ton for Suter, Niskanen, paid a ton for Green, Nielsen and its no doubt that if he had been given a shot at Stamkos, he would've offered him that max as well.

I hate him, because he won't lick his wounds and deal people when they need to because of this loyalty thing, or signs our UFA's to fat contracts because of loyalty and homegrown reasons.  I hate that he seems to not want to back up his words with actions about making the bold moves, changing the team makeup, etc...on the same hand, I loved the Vanek and Nielsen additions, plus Ott. So just like 90% of the fans, I am finicky when it comes to Holland, but only because I expect the best choices and moves from the perceived best GM in the NHL.

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As much as I'd like to see us finally part ways with Kenny, I'm only on board if there's a suitable replacement with experience to replace him. I'd rather us just hold onto Kenny until Yzerman becomes available. Would be a dream come true to have Stevie Yzerman back home where he belongs.

Anyone know off the top of their heads how many more years Yzerman has left on his Lightning contract?

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26 minutes ago, TheDetroitRedWings said:

As much as I'd like to see us finally part ways with Kenny, I'm only on board if there's a suitable replacement with experience to replace him. I'd rather us just hold onto Kenny until Yzerman becomes available. Would be a dream come true to have Stevie Yzerman back home where he belongs.

Anyone know off the top of their heads how many more years Yzerman has left on his Lightning contract?

In 2014 he signed a 4 year extension. So assuming in 2010 he also signed a 4 year deal, then 2018 he becomes available which I'm pretty sure is the same year Holland's contract as GM is done.

https://www.nhl.com/lightning/news/lightning-sign-vp-and-general-manager-steve-yzerman-to-four-year-contract-extension/c-713290

Edited by kliq

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12 hours ago, puckbags said:

A lot of fancy stuff there for a team that is 1 point out of last in the east, hasn't won a Cup since Yzerman joined the team and has the 6th highest payroll in the league with a star player who can't stay healthy.  Oh and just to note. After Stamkos resigned with the Lightning in the summer it was quite clear that he had no intentions but to stay in TB. All the hype of him leaving was fueled by hockey media.  I measure success in Stanley Cups and they have just as many as we do since Yzerman joined the Lightning. We can argue all day what team has the brighter future but as it sits right now it doesn't look good for either. 

The point is, they've had a lot of playoff success that the Wings haven't even come come close to since 2011.  Injuries have hampered their team, but there's no doubt who the better GM is.  When Holland started his GM career, he had an unlimited cap and a tremendous roster to start with.  The Cups came naturally.  

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2 hours ago, TheDetroitRedWings said:

As much as I'd like to see us finally part ways with Kenny, I'm only on board if there's a suitable replacement with experience to replace him. I'd rather us just hold onto Kenny until Yzerman becomes available. Would be a dream come true to have Stevie Yzerman back home where he belongs.

Anyone know off the top of their heads how many more years Yzerman has left on his Lightning contract?

YEs, KLIQ is correct, both Holland and Yzerman have one more year on their contracts.

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53 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

The point is, they've had a lot of playoff success that the Wings haven't even come come close to since 2011.  Injuries have hampered their team, but there's no doubt who the better GM is.  When Holland started his GM career, he had an unlimited cap and a tremendous roster to start with.  The Cups came naturally.  

Lets just say for conversation sake Holland had nothing to do with 98 and 02, what is your reason to discredit him for 2008?

At the end of the day Yzerman has not won a cup, I dont see how you can say he is clearly the better GM. I do think that Yzerman has made better moves in that past few years and appears to understand the cap better then Holland and yes, in 2018 if I had to choose I would choose Yzerman, but you are making it sound like Yzerman has had a better career as a GM then Holland which is a joke.

Edited by kliq

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