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PavelValerievichDatsyuk

Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

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6 hours ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

Hopefully Tatar gets his one year deal and we can try to work out an extension with him during the season and if it seems we're at an impasse -- if and when that times comes, we flip him at the deadline.

Fixed it for you.

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2 hours ago, e_prime said:

Fixed it for you.

If your really going to fix it you could have said hopefully Holland trades Nyquist/Tatar and signs Vanek.

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6 hours ago, barabbas16 said:

Of course it's in hindsight.  It was 4 years ago. 

Peoples' opinions four years ago about Filppula are not relevant to the current conversation about Tatar.  I don't even remember if I posted anything about the Filppula/Weiss situation, but I'm not trying to say "I told you so."   We know now that it was clearly a mistake for Detroit to not re-sign Filppula.  If we're thinking that Tatar is an easily replaceable player, maybe the past situation with Filppula is a lesson learned to draw upon.

And, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Tatar will walk for nothing.  So, I think that's a different conversation as well.

It wasnt a mistake bc Filppula was a player you cant let walk. It was a mistake bc Weiss was a 100% failure and we came out with nothing. Fils contract went on to be a huge problem for TB once his production dropped after his first year there. I actually think Tatar is better than Val... but still not a player who really moves the needle.

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11 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It wasnt a mistake bc Filppula was a player you cant let walk. It was a mistake bc Weiss was a 100% failure and we came out with nothing. Fils contract went on to be a huge problem for TB once his production dropped after his first year there. I actually think Tatar is better than Val... but still not a player who really moves the needle.

Just because a player is not one that "you can't let walk," does not mean that you should let them walk.  Filppula's contract did end up being a problem for TB down the line, but they were and are still in better position regarding Filppula than Detroit is regarding Weiss.  Detroit thought the grass was greener (or at least as green) on the other side with Filppula.  It wasn't.  The same could be the case with Tatar.

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9 minutes ago, barabbas16 said:

Just because a player is not one that "you can't let walk," does not mean that you should let them walk.  Filppula's contract did end up being a problem for TB down the line, but they were and are still in better position regarding Filppula than Detroit is regarding Weiss.  Detroit thought the grass was greener (or at least as green) on the other side with Filppula.  It wasn't.  The same could be the case with Tatar.

I think you're missing my point.

Whether Weiss scores 5 pts with us his first season or 100, Filppula's value as a player doesn't change. I'm not trying to get bogged down in whether Filppula or Hudler coming or going was a mistake or not. I'm trying to illustrate how non-crucial these players are.

When Fil left and Weiss flopped did it kill us? No.

When Hudler left and Brunner turned out to be a dud did it kill us? No.

When Tatar leaves and we bring in Jarome Iginla, who flops, to replace him will it kills us? It doesn't matter because we're not a playoff team anymore.

Were talking about replacing Kozlov, not Fedorov. This team will be fine with or without another Kozlov. Instead we should be focused on finding a Fedorov instead of paying and pleasing the Kozlovs of the world.

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28 minutes ago, barabbas16 said:

Just because a player is not one that "you can't let walk," does not mean that you should let them walk.  Filppula's contract did end up being a problem for TB down the line, but they were and are still in better position regarding Filppula than Detroit is regarding Weiss.  Detroit thought the grass was greener (or at least as green) on the other side with Filppula.  It wasn't.  The same could be the case with Tatar.

To be fair though, Weiss was coming off a wrist injury when we signed him and was a low end 1C. Nobody could have predicted he was about to suffer injuries to his abdominal that would eliminate his ability to even be a top 9 forward.

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3 minutes ago, kliq said:

To be fair though, Weiss was coming off a wrist injury when we signed him and was a low end 1C. Nobody could have predicted he was about to suffer injuries to his abdominal that would eliminate his ability to even be a top 9 forward.

Fair to who?

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6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think you're missing my point.

Whether Weiss scores 5 pts with us his first season or 100, Filppula's value as a player doesn't change. I'm not trying to get bogged down in whether Filppula or Hudler coming or going was a mistake or not. I'm trying to illustrate how non-crucial these players are.

When Fil left and Weiss flopped did it kill us? No.

When Hudler left and Brunner turned out to be a dud did it kill us? No.

When Tatar leaves and we bring in Jarome Iginla, who flops, to replace him will it kills us? It doesn't matter because we're not a playoff team anymore.

Were talking about replacing Kozlov, not Fedorov. This team will be fine with or without another Kozlov. Instead we should be focused on finding a Fedorov instead of paying and pleasing the Kozlovs of the world.

I wasn't missing your point.  We were just (kind of) trying to have two different conversations.  I was trying to get bogged down in whether Filppula or Hudler coming or going was a mistake or not.  I understand where you're going with your point....I just don't think that's where Holland is going. 

People can dream all they want about getting Stamkos or Tavares... via trade or free agency.  I just don't believe that's ever going to happen.  If this team is getting another Fedorov level player, in my opinion, it'll be through the draft.  But, I think Holland will try to remain competitive and will not tank.  So, I think it's likely that Holland will just try to replace Tatar with a similar player if he 'lets him walk.'  And, as a result, I see the past mistake with Filppula as potentially relevant in the current situation with Tatar.

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, barabbas16 said:

I wasn't missing your point.  We were just (kind of) trying to have two different conversations.  I was trying to get bogged down in whether Filppula or Hudler coming or going was a mistake or not.  I understand where you're going with your point....I just don't think that's where Holland is going. 

People can dream all they want about getting Stamkos or Tavares... via trade or free agency.  I just don't believe that's ever going to happen.  If this team is getting another Fedorov level player, in my opinion, it'll be through the draft.  But, I think Holland will try to remain competitive and will not tank.  So, I think it's likely that Holland will just try to replace Tatar with a similar player if he 'lets him walk.'  And, as a result, I see the past mistake with Filppula as potentially relevant in the current situation with Tatar.

I agree that if an elite player is coming to this team under Holland it will be through the draft.

My concern is paying Tatar 5-6 million for 7 years. That's a lot of term and money for a player that I don't think moves the needle. And with the current state of the team, I'm not too concerned about moving the needle anyway. So I'm all for trading Tatar, getting some assets, and signing Vanek cheap to replace him. If Vanek is worse or totally flops, who cares, we're in a rebuild anyway... and it's better to have short cheap contracts in order to remain flexible in a rebuild.

If this team was competitive right now I'd be hollering to get Tatar locked in for the next 7 years, because I don't want to see another Fil/Weiss situtation, but this team isn't competitive right now.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If this team was competitive right now I'd be hollering to get Tatar locked in for the next 7 years, because I don't want to see another Fil/Weiss situtation, but this team isn't competitive right now.

I agree with this, and I find it important. Looking at a good old bell curve, we are projected to be decent in 4 to 6 years. Tatar doesn't fit that schedule and on top of that he is coming off a somewhat secretive shoulder surgery.

The shoulder is the most intricate junction in the upper body and thus the hardest to repair. Rehab and recovery on top of that. Then play top 6 in the NHL. Going in blind for 5+ years on that is madness in my opinion.

Lastly his size - it is a problem. Yes he has hands but is clearly undersized and suffers against the big top 4 defenders of opposing teams. He needs a piano puller to be effective. We simply have better options I think.

Edited by Jacksoni

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5 minutes ago, Jacksoni said:

I agree with this, and I find it important. Looking at a good old bell curve, we are projected to be decent in 4 to 6 years. Tatar doesn't fit that schedule and on top of that he is coming off a somewhat secretive shoulder surgery.

The shoulder is the most intricate junction in the upper body and thus the hardest to repair. Rehab and recovery on top of that. Then play top 6 in the NHL. Going in blind for 5+ years on that is madness in my opinion.

Lastly his size - it is a problem. Yes he has hands but clearly is undersized and suffers against the big top 4 defenders of the opposing teams. He needs a piano puller to be effective. We simply have better options I think.

He's basically Hudler with more quickness. Adding or subtracting another Hudler isn't going to make or break this team. I'm fine with keeping him, I just think 7 years, and maybe even 5, is unwise. Your point about healthcare concerns is a good one as well. 

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Letting Filppula and Hudler walk for nothing didn't kill us, but it would have been nice to get something for them. It's a lot harder to do that though when your team is still competing in the playoffs every year. It is and should be viewed as a very different situation now though. To let Tatar walk for nothing as a middling team would be a huge mistake. Say what you will about Tatar, but he does have value, and a lot of teams would likely be interested, to give their top 6 a boost. If it goes to arbitration and he receives the one year contract, and we're unable to get him signed at some point this season (for less than he's asking), we need to aggressively shop him at or before the trade deadline. A lot of players have been overpaid by $0.5-1M, and you can afford to do that with a few players, but not every player. It's unfortunate that all the role players are the ones that seem to have been overpaid, but just because they have been overpaid, doesn't necessarily mean we should be willing to do the same with every other player now. I hope Holland doesn't budge on his current price, and Tatar forces his hand to trade him in a package for a top pair defenseman.

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5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Letting Filppula and Hudler walk for nothing didn't kill us, but it would have been nice to get something for them. It's a lot harder to do that though when your team is still competing in the playoffs every year. It is and should be viewed as a very different situation now though. To let Tatar walk for nothing as a middling team would be a huge mistake. Say what you will about Tatar, but he does have value, and a lot of teams would likely be interested, to give their top 6 a boost. If it goes to arbitration and he receives the one year contract, and we're unable to get him signed at some point this season (for less than he's asking), we need to aggressively shop him at or before the trade deadline. A lot of players have been overpaid by $0.5-1M, and you can afford to do that with a few players, but not every player. It's unfortunate that all the role players are the ones that seem to have been overpaid, but just because they have been overpaid, doesn't necessarily mean we should be willing to do the same with every other player now. I hope Holland doesn't budge on his current price, and Tatar forces his hand to trade him in a package for a top pair defenseman.

I fill in behind you on this. I do hope the cards fall right for it to happen, lots of moving parts obviously. It'll be very interesting to see how this unfolds;for me this has long term implications as to what route this team takes. Not by it's own but it is a major part.

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8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Letting Filppula and Hudler walk for nothing didn't kill us, but it would have been nice to get something for them. It's a lot harder to do that though when your team is still competing in the playoffs every year. It is and should be viewed as a very different situation now though. To let Tatar walk for nothing as a middling team would be a huge mistake. Say what you will about Tatar, but he does have value, and a lot of teams would likely be interested, to give their top 6 a boost. If it goes to arbitration and he receives the one year contract, and we're unable to get him signed at some point this season (for less than he's asking), we need to aggressively shop him at or before the trade deadline. A lot of players have been overpaid by $0.5-1M, and you can afford to do that with a few players, but not every player. It's unfortunate that all the role players are the ones that seem to have been overpaid, but just because they have been overpaid, doesn't necessarily mean we should be willing to do the same with every other player now. I hope Holland doesn't budge on his current price, and Tatar forces his hand to trade him in a package for a top pair defenseman.

Just so you know, I agree with you. I don't want to give him away like we had to do with Val and Huds. There would be no excuse for letting him walk unless he signed a 1-year and we made the playoffs this season.

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On 7/15/2017 at 6:22 PM, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

... Just look at how the lightning traded him to the Flyers in anticipation of the expansion draft. They got Streit, and 4th + 7th round picks. I don't see any reason why he would have been bought out if we had re-signed him.

His last year in Detroit was pretty bad, but he had injured his medial collateral ligament in his right knee (had to look it up to remember the injury) during the lockout that year and never really got on track due to the injury.

Correction: TB gave up the 4th and (conditional) 7th. They then sent Streit to Pit for a 4th. So basically they paid to get rid of him.

That said, I agree we'd likely be better off if we had kept him and not signed Weiss/Richards/Nielsen.

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Just under 3 days to get a deal done with Tatar...  Will it happen or will he go to arbitration?  Please, Kenny, don't screw the pooch and overpay him, or lose him for nada!!!!  

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3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Just under 3 days to get a deal done with Tatar...  Will it happen or will he go to arbitration?  Please, Kenny, don't screw the pooch and overpay him, or lose him for nada!!!!  

We can't lose him. Worst case scenarios are the arbitrator gives him all the money he wants, or Tatar gets disgruntled by all this and walks away after a year deal. In the case of the former he better be traded.

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Holland to trade Tatar and Mrazek?

Oh, nevermind, I forgot. Trades are hard...for Holland. 

 

CKHnySL.gif

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4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We can't lose him. Worst case scenarios are the arbitrator gives him all the money he wants, or Tatar gets disgruntled by all this and walks away after a year deal. In the case of the former he better be traded.

No, you misunderstand.  He said if he goes to arbitration, it's his last deal in Detroit, so if he walks then we lose him for nothing.  If he goes to arbitration, there is a chance that we lose him for nothing, as teams may be reluctant to trade any decent assets for a soon-to-be UFA whos contract demands are pretty well known and unrealistic.  The flip side is Holland overpays him because.... reasons.  So don't overpay or lose him for nada.  The middle ground being that we get him under contract right around 4.5-5.25 for 5 years or we sign him to a show-me contract for 1 year with the understanding that if he produces, we'll be there to sign him long-term for an increase in a year.

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I think the most realistic two sided scenario is either we sign him long term or lose him for nothing after his arbitrary deal. If he gets the 1yr deal on the 20th we have no remaining cards...Tatar has said he will not return if it goes that route...with that knowledge what team is going to offer a deal that Hollands magic 8-ball says is a good one? Also, what is this thread going to look like after the deadline when we send him somewhere for a 3rd and Holland starts talking about how hard trades are and that's the best we could get? We're gonna be trying to talk guys off the ledge! I personally will be pissed. I think there will be news in the next couple days-- 5/little more than 5mil or 6/right around 5mil.

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

No, you misunderstand.  He said if he goes to arbitration, it's his last deal in Detroit, so if he walks then we lose him for nothing.  If he goes to arbitration, there is a chance that we lose him for nothing, as teams may be reluctant to trade any decent assets for a soon-to-be UFA whos contract demands are pretty well known and unrealistic.  The flip side is Holland overpays him because.... reasons.  So don't overpay or lose him for nada.  The middle ground being that we get him under contract right around 4.5-5.25 for 5 years or we sign him to a show-me contract for 1 year with the understanding that if he produces, we'll be there to sign him long-term for an increase in a year.

Holland offered that, Tatar said no. Not much you can do when the player either wants to be paid big money, or is going to walk. I think Holland should stand pat, and hope Tatar signs a deal like you stated at the last minute. If he does't, so be it. Trade him.

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3 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

No, you misunderstand.  He said if he goes to arbitration, it's his last deal in Detroit, so if he walks then we lose him for nothing.  If he goes to arbitration, there is a chance that we lose him for nothing, as teams may be reluctant to trade any decent assets for a soon-to-be UFA whos contract demands are pretty well known and unrealistic.  The flip side is Holland overpays him because.... reasons.  So don't overpay or lose him for nada.  The middle ground being that we get him under contract right around 4.5-5.25 for 5 years or we sign him to a show-me contract for 1 year with the understanding that if he produces, we'll be there to sign him long-term for an increase in a year.

I think a trade after arbitration is doable

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According to Elliotte Friedman, Tatar is asking for $5.3M and the Red Wings are offering $4.1M... Not sure what kind of term was attached to that offer...

If true, I don't blame Tatar for not accepting, regardless of term. He shouldn't be asked to sign for over a million less than Nielsen, and less than Abdelkader and Ericsson among others.

I don't think Tatar's ask is astronomically high, but I'd still prefer a sign and trade. Or sign Tatar long term and trade Nyquist. Something needs to be done to shake things up with this team...

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Turned out to be a very solid player but the Wings need picks so I'd rather trade him maybe for a lesser return than lose the guy for nothing.

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