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PavelValerievichDatsyuk

Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

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Kickazz the boy with the rose colored glasses

Take out the trash and fire Holland and Blash!!!!!!

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7 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

3 years ago Tatar and Nyquist were untouchable, now people want the dumped in favor of old one dimensional vets

Take out the trash and fire Holland and Blash!!!!!!
 

It's not in favor of old one-dimensional vets... I think the point is that in the short term you can supplement their scoring with vets like that.  Signing Tatar to a long term, 5.5 million+ contract is a mistake, just like several other player contracts currently on the books.  It's not 3 years ago and Tats and Nyquist have slumped 2 of those 3 years, so what would you have them do?  You're right, fire Holland and Blash because under Holland we've handcuffed ourselves to bad contracts and under Blash, players have regressed 2 years in a row.  It's a sad state of affairs, but regardless, I'd rather trade Tatar and sign a proven vet who can put up the same amount of points for a year or two while Svech, Rasmussen, Smith, etc get more experience in GR.  Same goes for trading Nyquist unless he can prove he can bounce back and raise his ceiling slightly.

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Kickazz the boy with the rose colored glasses

Take out the trash and fire Holland and Blash!!!!!!
 

Beats being bitter, and bitchy all the time. Like being on the cycle 24/7. 

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Tatar will get an arbitrated 1 year contract for around what he wants. If the season goes bad again as most expect, he, Mrazek, and Green should all be traded for picks at the deadline.

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Take out the trash and fire Holland and Blash!!!!!!
 

The best part is it's not happening and I get joy that it pains you. :lol:

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It's not in favor of old one-dimensional vets... I think the point is that in the short term you can supplement their scoring with vets like that.  Signing Tatar to a long term, 5.5 million+ contract is a mistake, just like several other player contracts currently on the books.  It's not 3 years ago and Tats and Nyquist have slumped 2 of those 3 years, so what would you have them do?  You're right, fire Holland and Blash because under Holland we've handcuffed ourselves to bad contracts and under Blash, players have regressed 2 years in a row.  It's a sad state of affairs, but regardless, I'd rather trade Tatar and sign a proven vet who can put up the same amount of points for a year or two while Svech, Rasmussen, Smith, etc get more experience in GR.  Same goes for trading Nyquist unless he can prove he can bounce back and raise his ceiling slightly.


That's exactly what some people want. Trade them for whatever and sign Vanek and Jagr. Doesn't do much long term or short term.

Not all the prospects will work out. There will be room for guys like Tatar and Nyquist. Fix the PP and both will look a lot better, and they can be traded later if need be as long as Holland doesn't go full retard and give Tatar 7 years and $6 mil.

Sent by my minions via telepathy

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1 minute ago, DickieDunn said:

 


That's exactly what some people want. Trade them for whatever and sign Vanek and Jagr. Doesn't do much long term or short term.

Not all the prospects will work out. There will be room for guys like Tatar and Nyquist. Fix the PP and both will look a lot better, and they can be traded later if need be as long as Holland doesn't go full retard and give Tatar 7 years and $6 mil.

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

 

In the long term, it does help... Tatar and Nyquist will more than likely never crack 55 points.  We also need cap space in order to have flexibility if a free agent/trade comes along so we can get that coveted top 2 d-man.  Also, next off-season we'll need to re-sign Larkin, Mantha, possibly Mrazek, Bertuzzi, possibly Coreau.  If both Mantha & Larkin have solid years, which is possible, they could be in line for a reasonable increase.  

Nielsen at 5.25 over the next 5 years
Abdelkader at 4.25 over the next 6 years
Helm at 3.85 for the next 4 years
Ericsson at 4.25 over the next 3 years
Nyquist at 4.75 over the next 2 years (only if his production continues to be lackluster)

That's 4 bad contracts, taking up 17.6 million and roster spots that kids are or are near ready to step into.  Adding Tatar for 4+ years at 5.5 million+ isn't going to help this situation.  It's a bad contract for a sub 50 point producer over the past 2 seasons.  I'd rather they trade him and bring Svechnikov up now, let him learn from Zetterberg and other veterans.  He didn't look out of place last season in limited action.  AA is much more important.  If both those guys have career years, which is possible, they could be in line for a reasonable increase.  

Lastly, if the rumors are true about Tatar being a turd are true, adios!  Why pay a guy for a long period who shows he doesn't want to be here if things go to arbitration?  That happens sometimes, but if he truly wanted to be here long-term, he wouldn't have said anything on the matter other than he hopes it doesn't go to arbitration.  And I know, why would anyone want to be here with the mediocrity of all things right now, but that doesn't matter if the player doesn't match the culture the team has built over the past 30+ years.  Same goes for Mrazek if what the reports said is accurate.

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Didn't see this posted yet. 

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/07/08/contract-talks-red-wings-tatar-turn-sticky/103534746/

But the two sides are far apart, and Tatar told a Slovakian website if he doesn't get a long-term deal, the resulting one-year contract in arbitration would likely be his last with the Red Wings.

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Ya, his attitude about the 1 year deal is what we're discussing, but it's nice to see multiple news agencies reporting on it. Gives it much more substance. 

Like I said, it's not like I don't think he's worth money, but we only have so much cap, and we cannot undercut AA. Sign him first, deal with Tatar after. Or trade his rights today. A package of Tatar and Mrazek may bring us a nice return.

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20 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes. I think if he re-signs for one year he will likely walk after this season.

I get what you're saying, however he won't walk away... he'll get flipped at the deadline

While haters will make you think it's Holland's fault, and apologists will blame Tatar's attitude, the reality of the situation is that Tatar wants to get paid/knows he can get paid, knows he can play on a better team and probably win elsewhere.  Not every player in the league has to be a martyr for the team they currently play for.  If you were a talented forward headed into your prime, would you want to spend those years mired on a team with an identity crisis?

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18 minutes ago, e_prime said:

I get what you're saying, however he won't walk away... he'll get flipped at the deadline

While haters will make you think it's Holland's fault, and apologists will blame Tatar's attitude, the reality of the situation is that Tatar wants to get paid/knows he can get paid, knows he can play on a better team and probably win elsewhere.  Not every player in the league has to be a martyr for the team they currently play for.  If you were a talented forward headed into your prime, would you want to spend those years mired on a team with an identity crisis?

What makes you so sure? Teams lose quality players to free agency every year without getting any sort of return. Both Hudler and Filppula (somewhat similar players) walked as UFA's a few years back. If Tatar signs a one year contract, I would not be at all shocked to see Holland keep him this season in hopes that they can work out a deal next offseason. If Tatar wants to test free agency though, Holland likely won't get any return on a very valuable asset. I liked Filppula, was never a fan of Hudler, but it was a mistake to let them walk for nothing back then, and it would be a mistake to let the same situation happen with Tatar next offseason. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tatar sign a multi year deal in the next few weeks though, something in the $4.75-5.25M range.

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37 minutes ago, e_prime said:

you think it's Holland's fault, and apologists will blame Tatar's attitude, the reality of the situation is that Tatar wants to get paid/knows he can get paid, knows he can play on a better team and probably win elsewhere

Oh well, it´s obvious he wants a fair deal, when he can see Abdelkader, Helm and others with their money and terms. And who gave them such a deals?

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1 hour ago, e_prime said:

I get what you're saying, however he won't walk away... he'll get flipped at the deadline

While haters will make you think it's Holland's fault, and apologists will blame Tatar's attitude, the reality of the situation is that Tatar wants to get paid/knows he can get paid, knows he can play on a better team and probably win elsewhere.  Not every player in the league has to be a martyr for the team they currently play for.  If you were a talented forward headed into your prime, would you want to spend those years mired on a team with an identity crisis?

Then trade him now. No need to wait.

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i love tats but i have to agree if his attitude clouds his abilities than maybe  change of venue is in order id rather us focus on our future i know all our prospects wont pan out but i think you build the team around AA Larkin and Mantha those 3 need to be top of your list before anyone else i hope things work out where we arent in to bad of shape going forward with tats or not out of all the contracts i am not happy with helms because i just dont see the reason he needed to sign him if he was being looked at last year should have let him walk  

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Posted (edited)

I have to say, I think this "attitude" problem is being overblown. The guy wants a long term deal, it's not like he is saying "I just want to sign for one year, and be out of the s*** hole of a city". He is saying he wants to be here long term. If you just watched guys like Abby and Helm get their deals and you could score 20 goals in a season, would you not also want that? Sure they were UFA's, but final year of being an RFA is somewhat comparable. 

Tatar has all the leverage here and I hope we sign him OR trade him for a top D-man. You need to score in the NHL, and Tatar is the best player we have at that and is still young. Lets trade him, AA, and a pick for Trouba! Hey I can dream lol.

We need cap room......Holland, start working the phones.

Edited by kliq

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The "attitude" is so overblown. Abby, Helm, Glendening got handed 4-7 years at good money with little negotiation, they play hardball with Tatar who can actually produce offense without playing with two high end linemates. I'd be pissed too, and so would all of you if your boss pulled that

Sent by my minions via telepathy

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16 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

The "attitude" is so overblown. Abby, Helm, Glendening got handed 4-7 years at good money with little negotiation, they play hardball with Tatar who can actually produce offense without playing with two high end linemates. I'd be pissed too, and so would all of you if your boss pulled that

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

 

Agreed with all but he bold part. Tatar played quite a bit with Z, Mantha, Nyquist... as well as on the powerplay. That's about as high end as it could be on this team. 

It is weird that negotiations are going so slowly with a guy that can actually score goals though; especially on a team severely lacking goal scorers. There's got to be something more going on behind the scenes that we're not hearing about.... then again, it could easily just be the media/fans making mountains out of molehills. 

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3 hours ago, e_prime said:

I get what you're saying, however he won't walk away... he'll get flipped at the deadline

While haters will make you think it's Holland's fault, and apologists will blame Tatar's attitude, the reality of the situation is that Tatar wants to get paid/knows he can get paid, knows he can play on a better team and probably win elsewhere.  Not every player in the league has to be a martyr for the team they currently play for.  If you were a talented forward headed into your prime, would you want to spend those years mired on a team with an identity crisis?

Exactly.  And score the most goals for your team but still wind up on the 2nd line and 2nd pp unit?  Tatar has walked the walk.  Holland spends 5 mil per on stick figure -22 Danny DeKeyser but wont pony up for our top scorer when we have a team that cant score?

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

What makes you so sure? Teams lose quality players to free agency every year without getting any sort of return. Both Hudler and Filppula (somewhat similar players) walked as UFA's a few years back. If Tatar signs a one year contract, I would not be at all shocked to see Holland keep him this season in hopes that they can work out a deal next offseason. If Tatar wants to test free agency though, Holland likely won't get any return on a very valuable asset. I liked Filppula, was never a fan of Hudler, but it was a mistake to let them walk for nothing back then, and it would be a mistake to let the same situation happen with Tatar next offseason. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tatar sign a multi year deal in the next few weeks though, something in the $4.75-5.25M range.

I guess I'm just hoping that Holland has maybe learned something. Your two examples listed above seem like big gaffes, but at the time most thought we were a playoff team that could still go deep with either these two players or comparable replacements. 

Just spitballin' anyway... 

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Posted (edited)

Back when Filpulla and Hudler left the team we were still a strong contender.  You don't sell players at deadline if you have a legit shot the cup. You use them. 

Holland is all about gathering picks now. Tatar is not walking away without us benefitting from it. Times have changed, especially if we're missing the playoffs again.

 

Edited by kickazz

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Then trade him now. No need to wait.

Yep. He's an idiot for making the statement he did. All the more reason to trade early while his 25 goal season is still on his latest resume.

Edited by kickazz

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Just pay the guy his money and get on with it. Unfortunately 5 mil per seems like the going rate. He's averaged 25 goals a year in his 4 full seasons and I think he has a bit higher ceiling than that. He's drawn his line in the sand. Do we really want to bring a guy back on a 1 year arbitration deal ? He decides to put in a half ass effort and then has no value at the trade deadline. Pay him and get on with it unless we magically have another guy who is going to chip in an extra 25 goals this year. 

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I don't see that Tatar statement as all that bad. who would want to end with only a 1 year deal after all the negotiations? He's been a consistent, solid goal scorer who deserves the stability of a long term deal somewhere, if not here. The rumoured 6+ mill asking price is definitely high, though, so he won't get any sympathy from me if that's the roadblock in negotiations.

I understand the considerations for the cap as arguments for doing a sign and trade - and I'd be fine with that if it brought a 1 round pick or a #1D. One big problem with that is that he's just had shoulder surgery and who knows how his season goes after that - coud hurt his trade value. So I'd much rather sign him long term than just get some middling return. He's our best scorer right now and still young. Hope they end up at 5-5.25 for 4 years. To me that would still be a moveable contract if we wanted to go that way. I'd prefer moving Nyquist in a deal, though.

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Yep. He's an idiot for making the statement he did. All the more reason to trade early while his 25 goal season is still on his latest resume.

I think thats the only other option rather than paying him what he wants it trading him like today.  Can't wait until the season starts in case he decides to mail it in and eff the dog. 

Edited by puckbags

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1 hour ago, amato said:

 

Agreed with all but he bold part. Tatar played quite a bit with Z, Mantha, Nyquist... as well as on the powerplay. That's about as high end as it could be on this team. 

It is weird that negotiations are going so slowly with a guy that can actually score goals though; especially on a team severely lacking goal scorers. There's got to be something more going on behind the scenes that we're not hearing about.... then again, it could easily just be the media/fans making mountains out of molehills. 

Abdelkader got paid based on what he did while being carried by Datsyuk and Zetterberg.  Without them he's a 3rd line grinder.  Tatar never got to play with two players that good.

39 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Back when Filpulla and Hudler left the team we were still a strong contender.  You don't sell players at deadline if you have a legit shot the cup. You use them. 

Holland is all about gathering picks now. Tatar is not walking away without us benefitting from it. Times have changed, especially if we're missing the playoffs again.

 

Unless they're in range of a playoff spot, then he'll probably make a trade to add at the deadline

His poturing could be so that he won't get more than a one year deal then he can decide if they make appropriate moves towards the future before committing long term.  That's what I'd do. 

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