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Official 2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread

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1 hour ago, SaCkaveli20 said:

Well....I haven't been to this site in quite sometime. Haven't watched hockey in like 4 years or something like that...….Is Ken Holland still our GM?

Welcome back!

Shakira is our GM, I'm dating Angela Lindvall, and the Oilers are good again.

jk the Oilers still suck.

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14 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Daley is here.  I'm not complaining about him now.  No need to bring in Green.  Sign a guy to a one year deal as a placeholder and tell the kids they have a legit shot.  Maybe someone surprises them.  Cholowski could certainly make a case to make the team, or Hicketts.  Green isn't the difference between pretender and contender, the team is loaded with vets, there was ZERO reason to sign him, especially with a NTC.

 

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Like I said in the other thread, if you want to complain about there being no spots for the kids to make the team, complain about not trading a DeKeyser or Ericsson, not for signing Green. Green (and Daley) will be great mentors for the kids over the next two seasons. Good signing.

It's TWO.  It's not 3, 4, or 5.  It's TWO. Are we any of our kids helping us contend in two years? Are all of our defensemen invulnerable this year and next?  There will be no call ups for injuries, etc?  Additionally, cap-wise; it's very likely, under value. Moreso, despite what a gigantic bunch of you ninnies think, a NTC is not the end all and be all of Green being tradeable.  Do any of you think that Green DOESN'T want a cup?  Do any of you think that Green wouldn't waive that NTC to go win a cup on a contending team? Do you think if asked for a list of teams, Green is just gonna say, "Nah. I'm good. Lingering here with my career fading away quickly is just fine."

 ...but I digress, none of the above is worth discussing with any of you anyway because Holland won't get a first rounder for Green, so it's all moot, amirite?  

Plain and simple, and please, listen. Read:   

GREEN IS A STOPGAP.  You may not like that it's a two year deal but, as @krsmith17 said, Green is not the player holding a spot from the kids in 2019-2020.

Green can mentor kids better than Kronwall in 2018-19/19-20 BECAUSE HE'S ACTUALLY NOT A BROKEN DOWN OLD MAN (sorry @55fan) and he will not be here in 2019-2020.

Ericsson might be here in 2019-20, but he is servicable when paired with the right guy and also god forbid I said it -- tradeable!   You can complain about that contract extension as much as you like, but it's OLD NEWS.  Ancient times. I don't care how indicative it is of Holland behavior.  I don't like it, but WTF man, you can only ***** about it SO MUCH. 

@krsmith17 also mentions DeKeyser, but I haven't given up hope on Danny.  We always overvalue our prospects, ESPECIALLY OUR DEFENSIVE PROSPECTS as it's our most glaring need!!  If nothing else, he could be a solid second pairing guy, and let's be realistic -- DD is not getting traded.

However...

GREEN IS EASILY TRADEABLE TO A TEAM THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY WANT HIM.  WHATEVER ASSETS WE GET FROM TRADING GREEN ARE ASSETS WE DIDN'T HAVE.  WE GAVE UP NOTHING BUT CASH FOR GREEN - NO PICKS, NO PLAYERS, NO PROSPECTS - TO FILL THE GIGANTIC GAPING HOLE WE HAVE ALONG OUR BLUELINE.  THAT HOLE ISN'T GOING AWAY BECAUSE GREEN ISN'T SIGNED AND CHOLO COMES UP.

Let's not pretend ANY of our defensive prospects right now are going to come into the league and burn it down.  Should they get some time? ABSOLUTELY.  Should they have veterans along side them to ensure they don't get exposed for what they most certainly are (developing prospects) ?  Most certainly, YES.  Would it be nice to have Kronwall's or Ericsson's spot open for a youngster this year?  Sure... but you're not gonna trade Kronner, so you've have another year of Kronner bouncing back and forth on LITR and again, in all likelihood, two years with Ericsson.    

IF, in the year 2020, GM Ken Holland offers any combination of one or more of Mike Green, Jonathan Ericsson, or Trevor Daley another two or three year extension.  I will then blow a gasket.  Meanwhile, I'm gon' be over here worried more about our foward corps and how we're stunting THOSE prospects.  ;)

/endGreen/DEFENSErant

Edited by e_prime

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11 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I

If youre complaining that Green is taking away a roster spot you're looney. Ericsson, Jensen, Dekeyser and starting to look like Kronwall are occupying those spots. If you are too trash to steal one of their jobs, you have no business being on this team.

No one is saying those guys aren’t wasting roster spots. But that doesn’t mean you go and hand another roster spot to a veteran. We had someone off the books on a defensive unit that is basically overstocked. We went and stocked it more. Absolutely no reason to do it. Green doesn’t help us get into playoffs and not having him wouldn’t have affected “the kids” badly whatsoever. 

It’s like buying a KitKat just to stock up your cupboard with more chocolate when you’re on a diet. Might taste good, but better off not buying any.

Edited by kickazz

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12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree. I think Green is much better than Kronwall at this stage of their respective careers. And there's much more to Green's game than just great skating. His decision making in the offensive zone is borderline elite. And the way he can quarterback a power-play is up there amongst the tops in the league. Those are things that Hronek can definitely learn from him.

No, Green wouldn't be a top defenseman on any contending teams, but why does that matter? He's a top defenseman on this team and that's why he was brought back. I think most would have preferred one year, but two years isn't bad at all, especially considering he could have gotten 3-5 on the open market. The cap hit doesn't really matter much either since we shouldn't be a cap team for the next few years. He did take a discount and would have likely gotten $6M+ in free agency.

No one's suggesting that moving a bad contract is "easy", but it is certainly doable. Every year bad contracts are moved, and Ericsson's isn't even that bad compared to some of the albatross contracts out there.

This.

There is absolutely no reason to sign Green other than hoping we make the playoffs with his help.

We were the 8th worst power play in the league last year.

What a godsend.

Anyone who thinks a Green is a huge asset is delusional. 

Him being on the roster doesn’t help Hronek of Cholowski if they’re busy playing in GR. 

I’d rather have them up here and watch Kronwall (who is already on the books) and learn from his work ethic. Maybe Green is better than Kronwall, but Kronner would teach them things too.

In order for kids to learn, they actually have to be in Detroit, not Grand Rapids. 

Larkin didn’t become as good as he did by continuing to play in Michigan. He came here and learned from Zetterberg. He came to Detroit. 

Edited by kickazz

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Overstocked with what?  Crap?

On this team, Green is like fancy dark chocolate bar amongst a cupboard of KitKats.  I wanna have at least one chocolate bar I actually WANT TO EAT.

Keep it full.  Kids will get their chances. KitKats falling out of the cupboard all of the time and inedible. Melting.  I could go on...

----

Ok. ...because Kick did, so I will.  Who are you @kickazz@55fan's proxy?  Stuck on Kronner are we?  Well he's half a melted KitKat that's been dropped in a pile of ants that my three year old son still thinks is edible. 

That's Kronner for ya. 

Sure, the kids need to learn... but they don't need to be broken.  Let's say you jettison Green.  Kronwall goes down to an inevitable injury.  Who they learning from Jonathan Ericsson?  Danny DeKeyser?  Dekeyser is still learning himself.  Sure, you might pair a youngster with Deke, but when they become your first pairing because you don't have veterans to fall back on... who's learning anything other than how to lose?  You can't have a quality rebuild by having ZERO stability. 

Larkin didn't just learn how to become who he is from Henrik Zetterberg alone.  Also, collegiate hockey is NOT the AHL.   

Edited by e_prime

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28 minutes ago, e_prime said:

Overstocked with what?  Crap?

On this team, Green is like fancy dark chocolate bar amongst a cupboard of KitKats.  I wanna have at least one chocolate bar I actually WANT TO EAT.

Keep it full.  Kids will get their chances. KitKats falling out of the cupboard all of the time and inedible. Melting.  I could go on...

----

Ok. ...because Kick did, so I will.  Who are you @kickazz@55fan's proxy?  Stuck on Kronner are we?  Well he's half a melted KitKat that's been dropped in a pile of ants that my three year old son still thinks is edible. 

That's Kronner for ya. 

Sure, the kids need to learn... but they don't need to be broken.  Let's say you jettison Green.  Kronwall goes down to an inevitable injury.  Who they learning from Jonathan Ericsson?  Danny DeKeyser?  Dekeyser is still learning himself.  Sure, you might pair a youngster with Deke, but when they become your first pairing because you don't have veterans to fall back on... who's learning anything other than how to lose?  You can't have a quality rebuild by having ZERO stability. 

Larkin didn't just learn how to become who he is from Henrik Zetterberg alone.  Also, collegiate hockey is NOT the AHL.   

I will respond to this later but checking in to say that @55fan will whoop you for saying those things about Kronwall. 

She will Kronwall you. 

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7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree. Regarding the bold though, if Hronek, Cholowski or Hicketts come into camp and outperform one (or all) of Ericsson, DeKeyser or Jensen, do you think the kid would or should be given the roster spot over the vet?

You may disagree (I know some do), but I do believe there still is too much of a veteran bias on this team. We're rebuilding. If a kid proves to be ready (not saying any of them are), they should be given equal opportunity as the vets. We really need to start taking full advantage of the kids on ELC's, and get more out of their prime years. IF a kid comes into camp and outperforms one of the vets, I think he should be given an opportunity to start the regular season in Detroit. I'm not convinced that will happen though...

I think Jensen will be fighting to keep his job at camp this year, however I think his spot will go to Hicketts. Hronek and Cholowski will really have to outperform in order to force the team to do something drastic. I think Hronek will end up the #1 call up like Hicketts was last year, and Cholo will be left in GR for his first full season.

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18 hours ago, kickazz said:

I will respond to this later but checking in to say that @55fan will whoop you for saying those things about Kronwall. 

She will Kronwall you. 

Even @55fan gotta know her chocolate bunny is hanging on into May when Easter was in late March.

Also, I hyperbole.  Much.  So don't get your knickers in too much of a bunch.

Edited by e_prime

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48 minutes ago, kickazz said:

No one is saying those guys aren’t wasting roster spots. But that doesn’t mean you go and hand another roster spot to a veteran. We had someone off the books on a defensive unit that is basically overstocked. We went and stocked it more. Absolutely no reason to do it. Green doesn’t help us get into playoffs and not having him wouldn’t have affected “the kids” badly whatsoever. 

It’s like buying a KitKat just to stock up your cupboard with more chocolate when you’re on a diet. Might taste good, but better off not buying any.

Green is occupying a spot that no kid has any business filling.

A spot that Daley, DK, Kronwall, Jensen, and Ericsson have no business filling either.

If you want to strip this team down to the bare bones and ruin whatever winning culture we have left preserved, you won't find my agreeing. Green won't get us into the playoffs, but he at least acts as a placeholder for the #1 spot. He is literally the only offensively gifted Dman we have, and the only backbone we have at D besides maybe Daley. He helps this team much more than Kronwall, and that play on the backend is going to help the kids who do make the team be that much better. I would think it'd be pretty frustrating as a youngster trying to learn the pro game and having to rely on DK/Ericsson/Kronwall to feed you and defend for you.

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Loved the Dailey signing last year and like the Green signing this year. Our Defense is flat terrible and anything we can get we should. I'd rather see some assets traded for a real Defenseman to lead the blueline but we've all been waiting for that trade for years and it never comes. With our defensive talent I fail to see why anyone wouldn't think this was a no brainer.

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6 hours ago, kickazz said:

There is absolutely no reason to sign Green other than hoping we make the playoffs with his help.

We were the 8th worst power play in the league last year.

What a godsend.

Anyone who thinks a Green is a huge asset is delusional. 

Him being on the roster doesn’t help Hronek of Cholowski if they’re busy playing in GR. 

I’d rather have them up here and watch Kronwall (who is already on the books) and learn from his work ethic. Maybe Green is better than Kronwall, but Kronner would teach them things too.

In order for kids to learn, they actually have to be in Detroit, not Grand Rapids. 

Larkin didn’t become as good as he did by continuing to play in Michigan. He came here and learned from Zetterberg. He came to Detroit. 

We had the 8th worst power-play. Imagine if we didn't have Green... I think a major goal this coming season is to improve the power-play. Bylsma was brought in, Vanek and Green were re-signed, Rasmussen will likely make the team, and maybe Zadina. Green is extremely valuable on that power-play in my opinion.

Although unlikely, Hronek could still make the team out of camp this season. If not, he definitely should by next season, and Green will still be around by then to teach him a thing or two. Again though, Hronek, Cholowski or Hicketts not making the team should be attributed to an abundance of below average defensemen on this team, not Green.

You're pretty much where I was at with Daley last offseason, so I completely see where you're coming from. I do find it a little odd though, that you were all about Daley signing for 3 years last offseason, and not Green for 2 years this offseason. What changed?

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Jensen will be fighting to keep his job at camp this year, however I think his spot will go to Hicketts. Hronek and Cholowski will really have to outperform in order to force the team to do something drastic. I think Hronek will end up the #1 call up like Hicketts was last year, and Cholo will be left in GR for his first full season.

I agree with this, and I think a full season in Grand Rapids would be best for Cholowski for sure, and maybe even Hronek as well.

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5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

How do they know they're not ready?

Cuzzzzzz they watch them play?

There's a difference between being NHL ready and being top pair or even 2nd pair ready. There is no chance that either Hronek or Cholowski are ready to take on that kind of responsibility at the NHL level. Even if they are good enough to make the NHL roster, they would need to be sheltered for a while until they can take on greater responsibility. Green, Daley, DD, and Kronwall are forced to play way above their skill set on a nightly basis. But their development is done. Put a young, inexperienced kid into that position and you risk damaging their development and/or confidence. That would be a bad decision. No one is saying that any of the vet D on this team are top pair guys. But they are the best that has been available in free agency, and you need guys like that to shoulder the burden of playing against other teams best forwards. You can't ask kids to do that, which is what makes guys like Green necessary.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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9 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Forgot where I read it, but it stated that The Wings were hoping Hronek earns a spot out of camp. Made no mention of Hicketts or Cholowski. If I run into the link again, I'll post it.

Hicketts probably makes the team as our 7D. Cholowski's destined for Grand Rapids. Hronek should make the team out of camp but probably won't, which, eh, whatever.

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11 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Cuzzzzzz they watch them play?

There's a difference between being NHL ready and being top pair or even 2nd pair ready. There is no chance that either Hronek or Cholowski are ready to take on that kind of responsibility at the NHL level. Even if they are good enough to make the NHL roster, they would need to be sheltered for a while until they can take on greater responsibility. Green, Daley, DD, and Kronwall are forced to play way above their skill set on a nightly basis. But their development is done. Put a young, inexperienced kid into that position and you risk damaging their development and/or confidence. That would be a bad decision. No one is saying that any of the vet D on this team are top pair guys. But they are the best that has been available in free agency, and you need guys like that to shoulder the burden of playing against other teams best forwards. You can't ask kids to do that, which is what makes guys like Green necessary.

All of THIS.

Do we really need to do to our very green (no relation,) very young defensive prospects what many a team has done during a rebuild?  

"Hey!  Throw 'em out there!  There's no better way to learn than to just play in the league!"

How's that worked out?

Unless they were high end talent with a winning culture around them.

Not. Very. Effn'. Well.

Also -- Green wasn't signed to get us to the playoffs.  Green is a band-aid trying to cover up a giant sucking wound on the back-end.

Edited by e_prime

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On 7/4/2018 at 2:34 PM, The 91 of Ryans said:

Way to complicate things a-hole :lol:

Well he's the most ready and has played 200 + games in various senior leagues and played big minutes for Czech national side so I'd put him at the front of the queue.

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6 hours ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

Well he's the most ready and has played 200 + games in various senior leagues and played big minutes for Czech national side so I'd put him at the front of the queue.

From what Holland is saying Sulaks name is very much in the hat.

Cholo, Hicketts, Sulak, and Hronek will all be fighting each other for the same spot.

Would love if someone like Sulak stole the spot.

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

The Hockey Guy analyzes the the Wings. Decent watch/listen if you've got the time.

I like this guy, tend to agree with him on most things too.

 

I especially like his assessment of the Habs' situation. SparkNotes version:

"S***'s bad. S***'s real bad."

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7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

From what Holland is saying Sulaks name is very much in the hat.

Cholo, Hicketts, Sulak, and Hronek will all be fighting each other for the same spot.

Would love if someone like Sulak stole the spot.

It could very well go to Sulak. At 24, he's pretty much at the end of being a "prospect". If you're going to throw someone out there, Sulak would be a better choice over Cholowski and Hronek. The kids are only 20 and you can afford to bring them along slowly. Plus they project to be better than Sulak, so if Sulak withers at the NHL level, it's no big deal.

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